UN list targets firms linked to Israeli settlements

[What if...?]

Criticism of Israeli policies is also not antisemitism and no one suggested it is.
The antisemitism I was referring to has nothing to do with the criticism of any specific policy.

I doubt it does in this instance either.

It's your go to.

We both know that.

The vast majority of folks you apply the label don't hate Jews for being Jewish

They're pissed at Israelis for being lawless assholes indulging in behaviors we condemn anybody else for.

 

[oneworld2]

What profiting? Was there analysis done to determine whether these firms were earning profit? Can you point me to where the UN “human rights” folks conducted that analysis?

What you mean is that they have been blacklisted because they engage in economic activity with Jews who live in Judea and Samaria.

That was sufficient to be identified by the “human rights” commission in pursuit of a boycott of those businesses because they trade with Jews who live in areas that the “human rights” commission has dictated Jews are not allowed to live.

So it’s fine to engage in economic activity with the Turks occupying Cyprus following a systematic ethnic cleansing or to trade with the Chinese government that occupied Tibet, is engaged in a massive systematic effort to coercively transfer its own population into that territory, and is a massive abuser of human rights that dwarfs the scale of Anything Israel could ever do, but godforbid you sell a bagel to a Jew in Jerusalem.

If you want to believe that all of the companies involved with business or security within the illegal Israeli settlements project built in OPT are doing this so as to make a loss, feel free.

I read Motorola have had around $50,000,000 from US taxpayers via military aid to develop a communications system for occupying forces and I know AirBnB, having gotten uncomfortable, offered to donate their profits to international humanitarian initiatives. Obviously prior to that u turn they kept those profits.

Obviously I am not going to go through the books of over a 100 companies , the vast majority of which are Israeli anyhow , just to make the obvious point that businesses aren't in the game to post losses.

As for the bagel nonsense you should maybe recall that East Jerusalem remains OPT

 

[CJ 2.0]

The forum rules prevent me from giving you the answer I think your question deserves.

As for different treatments for different countries/peoples it is pretty common. I mean there have been UN monitors all over Irans nuclear sites for quite some time but never a one that I can recall that has gone through the nuclear facilities in Israel or the US , of France , the UK etc etc People will have forgotten that the very UNSC resolutions that paved the way to the preferential treatment given to Iraq under SH also called for the region of the ME to be a WMD free zone unsc 687 for example. Thirty years on how are the inspections of Israeli nuclear sites going ?

As I already stated and you chose not to reply to, Israel was inexplicably left off the list of countries that violate the rights of children. The UN must have forgotten to be antisemitic that day.

You can add the ICCs penchant for prosecuting only black criminals for crimes many whites engage in and many Jewish people .

I would always want things to applied equally but I accept that things aren't always like that and some may win on some things but lose on others. You just remain silent on the wins and shout about the losses claiming you are always the victim.

1. Forum rules? Don’t really follow.

2. It is pretty common for there to be different treatment for different countries. Yet when we look at the totality of it all, there is objectively a disproportionate focus on Israel, both in the UN and other international fora and with various western “activists”. To my knowledge there are few in the west that treat the Turkish invasion and occupation of Cyprus with anything close to the degree of condemnation and hostility that they treat Israel’s control over Judea and Samaria. And, logically, there must be one or more reasons for that and all of the other situations which are far worse, involve far more people, and yet receive less attention, condemnation, or demonization. Your response seems to be just to deny objective reality rather than argue causation. It is the wrong battle but I guess you deep down understand the causality better than you let on. Otherwise I would expect to see you all over the other fora fixating on the Turkish occupation to the same extent you do on Israel’s liberation of Judea and Samaria from the illegal Jordanian occupation and successful defence of Israel’s independence from attacks by surrounding countries that openly declared their intention to commit genocide.

 

[CJ 2.0]

I peddle a similar line in logic regarding antisemitism when people talk about how rife it is in the ME. Given how damaging the outside enforcement of Zionism has proven to be for the Arabs of the ME the resentment being deemed as antisemitism also needs another look imo

For example if people were to claim that the native Americans were anti white or anti Christian for hating/resisting their displacers and dispossessors from 1492 onwards it would rightly be laughed at as a farce and yet we are suppossed to believe that the Arab antagonism to Zionism is based on a illogical hatred of Jews and anything/everything Jewish ?

Seems like a farce to me

Ahhhh. The “people are antisemetic because the Jews brought it on themselves” argument.

That didn’t take long.

 

[CJ 2.0]

If you want to believe that all of the companies involved with business or security within the illegal Israeli settlements project built in OPT are doing this so as to make a loss, feel free.

I read Motorola have had around $50,000,000 from US taxpayers via military aid to develop a communications system for occupying forces and I know AirBnB, having gotten uncomfortable, offered to donate their profits to international humanitarian initiatives. Obviously prior to that u turn they kept those profits.

Obviously I am not going to go through the books of over a 100 companies , the vast majority of which are Israeli anyhow , just to make the obvious point that businesses aren't in the game to post losses.

As for the bagel nonsense you should maybe recall that East Jerusalem remains OPT

No, it remains Israeli territory that the UN never once ever said should be given to the Palestinians prior to Israel liberating it from Jordan.

But yes. You and they have an issue with companies selling to or buying from Jews who live in areas where you don’t want Jews to live.

It is again a great illustration of how purported “morals” lead to a horrifically immoral position by those who would preach morality to the rest of us.

 

[Fledermaus]

They are releasing the names of companies that are profiting from the illegal Israeli settlements not because Israel engages in state terrorism. What illegal settlements do Hamas or Hezbollah have that companies are profiteering from ?

BTW this thread is about Israeli settlements , if you want to discuss the none existant Hamas and Hezbollah ones you can start a thread on it instead of engaging in whataboutisms that don't even exist

You keep insisting that occupation is "state terrorism".

Lets address both sides of the terrorist coin.

 

[oneworld2]

Ahhhh. The “people are antisemetic because the Jews brought it on themselves” argument.

That didn’t take long.

No you missed the point because you cannot view stuff without the compulsion to add antisemitism into the mix. It's just that simple.

The first nation Americans , the native Indians , didn't end up hating the European settlers because they were white or because they were Christians and I guarantee if someone were to try to make the argument that they were it would be roundly laughed at by virtually everybody for the absurdity it evidently is.

The European settler colonialists ended up being hated by the native Americans because of the damage , death and destruction their presence had inflicted upon them and their lands that was leading ( and did lead to) their ultimate dispossession and displacement. It had nothing to do with their colour or religious denomination.

Whether people are willing to admit to it or not the fact is that the outside imposition of Zionism and ultimately the state of Israel on the Arab world has resulted in much death and destruction for both Palestinian Arabs and the people of the neighbouring states . To try to make out that the widespread antagonism this has created in the region was born of an irrational hatred of Jews themselves and/or anything Jewish ( authentic antisemitism ) is as insane as positing that the native American antagonism towards European settler colonialism was based on an irrational hatred of white people or Christians.

In short they are not or were not antisemitic in expressing their rejection of Zionism ( even Ben Gurion could see this and many others in the zionist ranks ) or their resistance to it. They were just doing what virtually very other group of people have done in the same or similar circumstances.

 

[oneworld2]

No, it remains Israeli territory that the UN never once ever said should be given to the Palestinians prior to Israel liberating it from Jordan.

Most scholars disagree , as do all HRs groups , most nations in the UNGA, ICRC , ICJ etc etc are they all going to throw their reputations out of the window so as to oppose the slam dunk you would have us believe is the case ? Seriously ??

But yes. You and they have an issue with companies selling to or buying from Jews who live in areas where you don’t want Jews to live.

It's not that they are living there. It is that they are living there illegally at the expence of the self determination of millions of people who are having their every right denied them because of it and have been for over half a century. That is the context you are omitting

It is again a great illustration of how purported “morals” lead to a horrifically immoral position by those who would preach morality to the rest of us.

There is nothing " immoral " in wanting to see a long suffering people be given their right to self determination and see an end to the mass violations of their basic HRs on a daily basis. The real immoral thing is to wish that situation continues unabated.

BTW you asked for evidence of firms profiteering from the situation regarding the illegal Israeli settlements and haven't even been bothered to acknowledge you recieved it. Do you now accept that they are or have been ?

 

[Apocalypse]

I doubt it does in this instance either.

It's your go to.

We both know that.

The vast majority of folks you apply the label don't hate Jews for being Jewish

They're pissed at Israelis for being lawless assholes indulging in behaviors we condemn anybody else for.

No, they're outright antisemites.
They're pissed at Jews daring to defend their lives so they try to claim that any attempt by an Israeli to defend himself from terrorists is acting as a "lawless asshole" as you call it.
They can't cope with living in a world where Jews are seen as human beings allowed to live in security.

 

[oneworld2]

They can't cope with living in a world where Jews are seen as human beings allowed to live in security.

So why did they

A Vote to partition Palestine to create a Jewish state in the first place ?

B Recognize that state outside of the territory allocated to it under the partition plan to the tune of around 20% more ?

C Allow it to join the organisation itself despite Israels reneging on the Palestinian refugees ?

D Hold votes in the UN every November that sees virtually the entire world in support of a Jewish state by support for a two state solution ?

E Has allowed Israel to flout international laws it agreed to be bound by that have resulted in the mass violations of millions of people for over 50 years ?

Bearing in mind the above your hyperbolic claim is obviously completely false.

 

[What if...?]

I peddle a similar line in logic regarding antisemitism when people talk about how rife it is in the ME. Given how damaging the outside enforcement of Zionism has proven to be for the Arabs of the ME the resentment being deemed as antisemitism also needs another look imo

For example if people were to claim that the native Americans were anti white or anti Christian for hating/resisting their displacers and dispossessors from 1492 onwards it would rightly be laughed at as a farce and yet we are suppossed to believe that the Arab antagonism to Zionism is based on a illogical hatred of Jews and anything/everything Jewish ?

Seems like a farce to me

It tends to end any discussion.

Which is the whole purpose of the use of the term.

Unfortunately, it dilutes the term in it's proper usage.

 

[oneworld2]

It tends to end any discussion.

Which is the whole purpose of the use of the term.

Unfortunately, it dilutes the term in it's proper usage.

Your first sentence is the real reason why it is used so often by the same people. That is the intention. Instead of talking about whatever it is ,the thread gets derailed as people and groups are forced to fight off and defend themselves from false accusations of racism/bigotry.

And it does dilute the term , I agree , which is the other tragedy of its misuse.

The much quoted Israeli Abba Eban wrote a paper about how this very perversion of the term should be the weapon of choice to fend of legitimate criticisms of the actions of the state of Israel. It's been deployed a long time , as has the holocaust btw , as a means to defend the indefensible imo

 

[LetsGoBrandon]

UN list targets firms linked to Israeli settlements

JERUSALEM (AP) — The U.N. human rights office on Wednesday released a list of more than 100 companies it said are complicit in violating Palestinian human rights by operating in Israeli settlements in the occupied West Bank — a first-ever international attempt to name and shame businesses that has drawn fierce Israeli condemnation.

The list’s publication after repeated delays escalated a looming showdown between Israel and the international community over its more than half-century policy of building settlements in the West Bank. Emboldened by a new U.S. Mideast initiative, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has vowed to annex Israel’s more than 100 settlements, while the chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court in The Hague has indicated she will soon launch a war-crimes investigation into settlement policies.
=========================================================
The whip was in the other hand during the Holocaust but now it rests easily in Israeli hands. Despite their promises to the Palestinians when Israel was founded by the UN in the late 1940s, the Israelis are now the abusers & thieves, stealing from the Palestinians as if it is their right to do so.

I will now go out of my way to support those businesses listed in the article. Thanks. I'll support General Mills on my next grocery shopping trip.

 

[Apocalypse]

So why did they

A Vote to partition Palestine to create a Jewish state in the first place ?

B Recognize that state outside of the territory allocated to it under the partition plan to the tune of around 20% more ?

C Allow it to join the organisation itself despite Israels reneging on the Palestinian refugees ?

D Hold votes in the UN every November that sees virtually the entire world in support of a Jewish state by support for a two state solution ?

E Has allowed Israel to flout international laws it agreed to be bound by that have resulted in the mass violations of millions of people for over 50 years ?

Bearing in mind the above your hyperbolic claim is obviously completely false.

What do the ones who voted for a Jewish state back in the 40s have to do with modern antisemites sitting at the UN table?

Nothing, it seems.

 

[Fledermaus]

So why did they

A Vote to partition Palestine to create a Jewish state in the first place ?

B Recognize that state outside of the territory allocated to it under the partition plan to the tune of around 20% more ?

C Allow it to join the organisation itself despite Israels reneging on the Palestinian refugees ?

D Hold votes in the UN every November that sees virtually the entire world in support of a Jewish state by support for a two state solution ?

E Has allowed Israel to flout international laws it agreed to be bound by that have resulted in the mass violations of millions of people for over 50 years ?

Bearing in mind the above your hyperbolic claim is obviously completely false.

Let's see..... Hmmmmmm

Perhaps because many of the the states that now hammer on Israel for every real and perceived fault did not exist as independent states at the time of Israel's conception.

 

[CJ 2.0]

No you missed the point because you cannot view stuff without the compulsion to add antisemitism into the mix. It's just that simple.

The first nation Americans , the native Indians , didn't end up hating the European settlers because they were white or because they were Christians and I guarantee if someone were to try to make the argument that they were it would be roundly laughed at by virtually everybody for the absurdity it evidently is.

The European settler colonialists ended up being hated by the native Americans because of the damage , death and destruction their presence had inflicted upon them and their lands that was leading ( and did lead to) their ultimate dispossession and displacement. It had nothing to do with their colour or religious denomination.

Whether people are willing to admit to it or not the fact is that the outside imposition of Zionism and ultimately the state of Israel on the Arab world has resulted in much death and destruction for both Palestinian Arabs and the people of the neighbouring states . To try to make out that the widespread antagonism this has created in the region was born of an irrational hatred of Jews themselves and/or anything Jewish ( authentic antisemitism ) is as insane as positing that the native American antagonism towards European settler colonialism was based on an irrational hatred of white people or Christians.

In short they are not or were not antisemitic in expressing their rejection of Zionism ( even Ben Gurion could see this and many others in the zionist ranks ) or their resistance to it. They were just doing what virtually very other group of people have done in the same or similar circumstances.

They are antisemetic in believing and expressing things that are antisemetic.

You are being redirected...

This isn't hard.

Now you may think it's the Jews' fault that the Arabs are antisemetic, but, again, that's more an illustration of how your "morality" leads to outcomes that are morally sub-optimal.

 

[oneworld2]

They are antisemetic in believing and expressing things that are antisemetic.

You are being redirected...

This isn't hard.

Now you may think it's the Jews' fault that the Arabs are antisemetic, but, again, that's more an illustration of how your "morality" leads to outcomes that are morally sub-optimal.

The ADL !!! lol. Well there's an objective outlet if ever there was one . :roll:

Your wish NOT to actually comment on the response I gave as to why and how groups of people tend to hate those bent on displacing and dispossessing them , regardless of the colour and/or religious bent but to repeat the question instead is just evasion imo

 

[oneworld2]

Let's see..... Hmmmmmm

Perhaps because many of the the states that now hammer on Israel for every real and perceived fault did not exist as independent states at the time of Israel's conception.

:roll:

 

[oneworld2]

What do the ones who voted for a Jewish state back in the 40s have to do with modern antisemites sitting at the UN table?

Nothing, it seems.

Keep bouncing that around your own echo chamber if you want but reasonable people will reject the notion that the entire world and everyone in it are either antisemites or closet antisemites. And for Jewish people who are critical of Israeli actions and/or policies can be dismissed as selfhaters. It's a slam dunk ! :roll:

 

[CJ 2.0]

Most scholars disagree , as do all HRs groups , most nations in the UNGA, ICRC , ICJ etc etc are they all going to throw their reputations out of the window so as to oppose the slam dunk you would have us believe is the case ? Seriously ??

The UN never once ever said Jerusalem should be given to the Palestinians prior to it being liberated from Jordan. Correct?

It's not that they are living there. It is that they are living there illegally at the expence of the self determination of millions of people who are having their every right denied them because of it and have been for over half a century. That is the context you are omitting

It isn't at their expense. They are living in separate communities. Restrictions on mobility were created by terrorism and did not exist before Palestinians tried to murder too many of them.

There is nothing " immoral " in wanting to see a long suffering people be given their right to self determination and see an end to the mass violations of their basic HRs on a daily basis. The real immoral thing is to wish that situation continues unabated.

Yes, your position is immoral. Rather than advocating a solution that results in minimal disruption, you are advocating for a massive forcible transfer of civilians out of a territory to give that territory to someone else. And you are saying that we should name and shame anyone who engages in any economic activity with that group until they are forcibly expelled.

BTW you asked for evidence of firms profiteering from the situation regarding the illegal Israeli settlements and haven't even been bothered to acknowledge you recieved it. Do you now accept that they are or have been ?

I didn't ask for evidence. I asked if the analytics were done and if, as you claimed, the profits were what triggered inclusion rather than just economic activity. I know "profits" is a dirty word to socialists so figured that's why you referenced it and figured I'd call you on the sloppiness driven by your ideological worldview.

 

[CJ 2.0]

The ADL !!! lol. Well there's an objective outlet if ever there was one . :roll:

Your wish NOT to actually comment on the response I gave as to why and how groups of people tend to hate those bent on displacing and dispossessing them , regardless of the colour and/or religious bent but to repeat the question instead is just evasion imo

Ridiculous.

Here are the survey results since you are clearly reality averse.

You are being redirected...


1. Jews are more loyal to Israel than to [this country/to the countries they live in] 83%

2. Jews have too much power in the business world 91%

3. Jews have too much power in international financial markets 89%

4. Jews still talk too much about what happened to them in the Holocaust 64%

5. Jews don't care what happens to anyone but their own kind 84%

6. Jews have too much control over global affairs 88%

7. Jews have too much control over the United States government 85%

8. Jews think they are better than other people 72%

9. Jews have too much control over the global media 88%

10. Jews are responsible for most of the world's wars 78%

11. People hate Jews because of the way Jews behave 87% [I guess we can put you down for a yes on this one too...]


Again, this is just objective reality. These are classically antisemetic tropes that have nothing to do with "Israel" and everything to do with "Jews".

So sure, you can claim that these people are disgusting racists because of whatever cause you like (in your case, it is saying yes to Q11), but that doesn't have any impact at all on the observation that antisemitism among the Palestinians, and in the Arab world generally, is through the roof.

Or you can just pretend that Jews trying to document, quantify and publicize the racism directed against Jews is "propaganda" and dismiss it out of hand. Cause godforbid Jews actually take steps to expose antisemitism. I guess it would only be credible to you if we let Al Jazera and the Grand Mufti do the study...

But again, that goes more to how your moral lens is a complete mess than anything else.

 

[Fledermaus]

:roll:

So, nothing to say about the fact presented....

Got it.

 

[oneworld2]

The UN never once ever said Jerusalem should be given to the Palestinians prior to it being liberated from Jordan. Correct?

The UN 's position on Jerusalem was that it shouldn't be given to either state/side , correct? So whilst the answer to your question is no they didn't, the follow on is that at no point did they give any of Jerusalem to the Israeli state and were MORE than accomodating in allowing West Jerusalem to stay in Israeli hands, along with a large chunk of the Palestinian state free of it's Palestinian citizenry. Must have been another time they forgot they were all antisemites`

It isn't at their expense. They are living in separate communities. Restrictions on mobility were created by terrorism and did not exist before Palestinians tried to murder too many of them.

Of course it's at their expence. Nearly $50 billion over a 17 year period according to some

Israeli occupation costs $47 billion to Palestinians

You can never excuse the resort to terrorism but your constant refusals to accept that the settlers are illegal and are making life hell for the residents of the WB , including East Jerusalem are ridiculous. If the Israeli govts were serious about the security of their people they would disengage from the WB and bring the settlers to Israeli territory. INstead they use thewm as human shields for land acquisition in complete contravention of the law and they try to present them as victims when the people who are being beaten, coerced and killed into submission because of their illegal presence are painted as the villains. You have it upside down and deliberately so.

Yes, your position is immoral. Rather than advocating a solution that results in minimal disruption, you are advocating for a massive forcible transfer of civilians out of a territory to give that territory to someone else. And you are saying that we should name and shame anyone who engages in any economic activity with that group until they are forcibly expelled.

You are not on the moral side of this argument imo

I gave you two options wrt what should/can happen with the settlers.

They can all be offered a choice between being rehomed in their own country or they can stay where they are and forfeit their Israeli citizenship for Palestinian citizenship IF they agree to live in peace with their neighbours

I didn't ask for evidence. I asked if the analytics were done and if, as you claimed, the profits were what triggered inclusion rather than just economic activity. I know "profits" is a dirty word to socialists so figured that's why you referenced it and figured I'd call you on the sloppiness driven by your ideological worldview.

It's not a Left Right issue but seeing as you always have to resort to this

I can't believe that I am having to explain to a right winger that business is based on profit. I gave some details about some companies involved and the monetary figures involved. If you want tio believe that these companies and others involved are all doing this to make a loss you can believe that , seriously I think it's a ridiculous proposition but if people want to believe it and deny that fact that a company has already decided to give its profits to HRs initiatives some time ago because of the stigma of settler profiteering be my guest. I choose to live in what I believe is the real world.

 

[CJ 2.0]

The UN 's position on Jerusalem was that it shouldn't be given to either state/side , correct? So whilst the answer to your question is no they didn't, the follow on is that at no point did they give any of Jerusalem to the Israeli state and were MORE than accomodating in allowing West Jerusalem to stay in Israeli hands, along with a large chunk of the Palestinian state free of it's Palestinian citizenry. Must have been another time they forgot they were all antisemites`

Except they did as part of the Mandate. But aside from that, again, your original claim that Jerusalem is Palestinian territory is fundamentally wrong, regardless of who else also got that answer wrong.

Of course it's at their expence. Nearly $50 billion over a 17 year period according to some

Israeli occupation costs $47 billion to Palestinians

Talk about propaganda. Any chance they can break these numbers into costs associated with Palestinian violence against Jews and "other"? Cause based on trend lines pre and post occupation baselined against comparison groups (like Jordan and Egypt), the economic impact of the occupation absent Palestinian violence is unambiguously positive.

But thanks for exhibit 2,347 that the Palestinian terror war against the Jews was a bad idea.

You can never excuse the resort to terrorism but your constant refusals to accept that the settlers are illegal and are making life hell for the residents of the WB , including East Jerusalem are ridiculous. If the Israeli govts were serious about the security of their people they would disengage from the WB and bring the settlers to Israeli territory. INstead they use thewm as human shields for land acquisition in complete contravention of the law and they try to present them as victims when the people who are being beaten, coerced and killed into submission because of their illegal presence are painted as the villains. You have it upside down and deliberately so.

"I can't excuse but" is itself the classic formulation of an excuse. If Israel were serious about security it would wall off territories it plans on holding onto for security and population issues and disengage from Palestinian territory, only going in to maintain security as needed.

Which is exactly what is happening.

You are not on the moral side of this argument imo

Yeah, but you are clearly wrong. Bad programming leads to bad conclusions. And your moral programming is the only one here saying that forcibly removing half a million people from their homes and communities is the moral thing to do.

I gave you two options wrt what should/can happen with the settlers.

You want to game out the impact of your "alternative proposal" on those Jews? Maybe use some comparisons, say, what has happened to Jewish communities in other Arab countries? Or Christian communities in the WB (maybe do Bethlehem)? Now overlay that with Palestinian institutional capabilities and the educational efforts made by the Palestinians over the last 30 years.

Looking forward to that analysis....

They can all be offered a choice between being rehomed in their own country or they can stay where they are and forfeit their Israeli citizenship for Palestinian citizenship IF they agree to live in peace with their neighbours

Yes, forcible transfer or slower persecution and ethnic cleansing. How magnanimous of you.

It's not a Left Right issue but seeing as you always have to resort to this

I can't believe that I am having to explain to a right winger that business is based on profit. I gave some details about some companies involved and the monetary figures involved. If you want tio believe that these companies and others involved are all doing this to make a loss you can believe that , seriously I think it's a ridiculous proposition but if people want to believe it and deny that fact that a company has already decided to give its profits to HRs initiatives some time ago because of the stigma of settler profiteering be my guest. I choose to live in what I believe is the real world.

and I can't believe I have to explain to you that it wasn't profits that got companies included on this blacklist, since there was no analysis done on whether these companies earned sufficient profits to put them on the list. It was that they are trading with the wrong Jews.

 

[oneworld2]

So, nothing to say about the fact presented....

Got it.

:roll: