Ukrainian Sovereignty Was The Paramount "Western Value" That Was The Driver In Western Support Of The War. ( until it wasn't )

[oneworld2]

I wonder how many Americans are red faced by Trumps decision to negotiate an end to the war in Ukraine in bilateral talks with the Russian side only.

I mean do you ever learn that these " western values" are just useful tools with which to dupe the home population into supporting good old fashioned imperialist power plays?

Zelensky has spent the last 3 years going around the houses with the saddest demeanor on the planet only to be ****ed off from the debate about his own country's future.

The pathetic chirp that " Putin is afraid to talk to me " as a means to try to deflect/redirect from his very obvious sidelining from the talks is even worse than his constant use of army garb and perpetual miserable kipper that went with it.

At least nobody, at least those of the thinking variety, should still be conned with the " it's all about national sovereignty schtick.

 

[Bok Tuklo]

Russia has cucked the Republican Party.

Just because they have abandoned Western values doesn’t those values cease to exist. Putin just has the upper hand at the moment because he managed to make America temporarily a vassal state. It will not be permanent.

 

[Allan]

Zelensky knows the old adage applies: if you're not at the table, you're on it.

 

[DrewPaul]

Back to Russia, Russia, Russia. Amazing how folks on the side lines with a nice home, hot and cold running water and plenty of food minus any bombs going off want the suffering to continue indefinitely. Not that they have any stake in it. No skin off their nose.

 

[oneworld2]

Russia has cucked the Republican Party.

Just because they have abandoned Western values doesn’t those values cease to exist. Putin just has the upper hand at the moment because he managed to make America temporarily a vassal state. It will not be permanent.

There is no credibility in the term " western values" itself, Bok.

This is just another example of the bs we are fed and expected to believe.

The thing is about Trump is that he has no filter with which to hide from the public that which the others know and understand to be true. His narcissism actually makes him more honest than the others imo, not by choice but by default.

I think an objective study of the term" western values" against the historical record is all that's needed to understand the abject bankruptcy of the term itself.

 

[oneworld2]

Back to Russia, Russia, Russia. Amazing how folks on the side lines with a nice home, hot and cold running water and plenty of food minus any bombs going off want the suffering to continue indefinitely. Not that they have any stake in it. No skin off their nose.

I was against this war and situation since before the Russian invasion.

To me it was always, always a proxy war like so many others before it and Zelensky assumed his role in it after the Johnson " keep fighting" pat on the back in April of 2022.

He won't be living in Ukraine when this all ends and has , imo, played a pivotal role in getting his country destroyed and hundreds of thousands of his people killed.

As Bill Burns said in 2008, " Nyet means Nyet ", he was ignored and the rest is history as they say. I mean who even remembers the Minsk agreements now?

 

[Juin]

There is no credibility in the term " western values" itself, Bok.

This is just another example of the bs we are fed and expected to believe.

The thing is about Trump is that he has no filter with which to hide from the public that which the others know and understand to be true. His narcissism actually makes him more honest than the others imo, not by choice but by default.

I think an objective study of the term" western values" against the historical record is all that's needed to understand the abject bankruptcy of the term itself.

Communism, capitalism, fascism, enlightenment, inquisitions, crusades, colonialism etc... were all gifts from Europe anyways. "westerm values" is an attempt at pretending away what from Europe was not admirable

 

[Tigerace117]

Russia has cucked the Republican Party.

Just because they have abandoned Western values doesn’t those values cease to exist. Putin just has the upper hand at the moment because he managed to make America temporarily a vassal state. It will not be permanent.

The US never operated based on those supposed “values” prior to Trump either, as its destruction of democracies across the globe demonstrate.

 

[oneworld2]

Zelensky knows the old adage applies: if you're not at the table, you're on it.

He has the dosh to go and live a great life anywhere outside of Ukraine( Russia/Belarus aside) , it's the rank and file that will be forced to suffer the situation that follows, he can walk into the sunset with his Sex On The Beach in hand and tell himself he stood up for his people but I think the opposite is true.

 

[Bok Tuklo]

There is no credibility in the term " western values" itself, Bok.

This is just another example of the bs we are fed and expected to believe.

...

I think an objective study of the term" western values" against the historical record is all that's needed to understand the abject bankruptcy of the term itself.

I wholly reject your nihilistic premise that because perfection is impossible, perfectibility is a lie.

 

[Juin]

He has the dosh to go and live a great life anywhere outside of Ukraine( Russia/Belarus aside) , it's the rank and file that will be forced to suffer the situation that follows, he can walk into the sunset with his Sex On The Beach in hand and tell himself he stood up for his people but I think the opposite is true.

If you take a step back and view the whole picture, it is a very cynical game. Ukraine is going to get burned big time. Notice that a few weeks back the promise to Ukraine was that its path to Nato was irreversible. Provided Ukraine keeps fighting. Note that the more Ukraine fought the further and further away Nato moved away. Now it has been replaced by "peacekeeping" troops and security guarantees. But even the later, everyone agrees it is at present pointless if it is not coming from the US. So Ukraine got burned on Nato acession. To the tune of hundreds of thousands and hundreds of billions of dollars.

The second prize dangled is EU. I dont think that will come through for Ukraine as well. Macron observed like back in 2022 that it had to be the craziest of ideas admitting into the European Union a country at war. Notice that even though Macron opined that way he still dangles that promise to Ukraine along with the rest. My guess is those dangling the promises will not be in office tomorrow. Of course the closer the debate on acession approaches the better informed the public will get as to what the humongous cost of acession will be.

And if, as is also possible, Ukraine is wracked by civil strife after major combats are over does the Eu send in an army to fight insurgents?

 

[Jredbaron96]

He won't be living in Ukraine when this all ends and has , imo, played a pivotal role in getting his country destroyed and hundreds of thousands of his people killed.

This victim blaming has always been bizarre and will never not be off putting.

 

[oneworld2]

This victim blaming has always been bizarre and will never not be off putting.

Spare me the bollocks redbaron

He was voted in on a landslide, in no small part, down to a commitment to end the war in Donbas, He didn't follow through on that.

Then when there was the possibility of a diplomatic end to the Russian invasion in April 2022 he folded under western pressure to keep on fighting.

Zelensky is not a victim, he is a western wannabe that, imo, has been working for the West not in the interests of his own people, hundreds of thousands of whom have died in a needless war.

Your posting history here is one of support for the US proxy war with Russia via Ukraine, so like him, I don't think you give a toss about Ukraine or Ukrainians.

 

[Fledermaus]

Spare me the bollocks redbaron

He was voted in on a landslide, in no small part, down to a commitment to end the war in Donbas, He didn't follow through on that.

Then when there was the possibility of a diplomatic end to the Russian invasion in April 2022 he folded under western pressure to keep on fighting.

Zelensky is not a victim, he is a western wannabe that, imo, has been working for the West not in the interests of his own people, hundreds of thousands of whom have died in a needless war.

Your posting history here is one of support for the US proxy war with Russia via Ukraine, so like him, I don't think you give a toss about Ukraine or Ukrainians.

"Then when there was the possibility of a diplomatic end to the Russian invasion in April 2022 he folded under western pressure to keep on fighting."

Diplomatic end = Surrender of Ukraine territory.....

They fight because Russia is still there.

 

[Jredbaron96]

Spare me the bollocks redbaron

He was voted in on a landslide, in no small part, down to a commitment to end the war in Donbas, He didn't follow through on that.

Surely you realize that what "End the war" means varies wildly on who you talk to, right?

Both Ukrainians and Russians want the current war to end, but do you think that translates to them wanting the same end state?

Then when there was the possibility of a diplomatic end to the Russian invasion in April 2022 he folded under western pressure to keep on fighting.

This is nonsense. What happened was Russia demanded a clause that completely undercut Ukrainian negotiating goals.

Your posting history here is one of support for the US proxy war with Russia via Ukraine, so like him, I don't think you give a toss about Ukraine or Ukrainians.

I know you have to say this to make you feel better, but as usual you are wrong. I have friends in Ukraine, two of whom died fighting to defend their homeland from Putin. I know you don't actually give a shit, but I do.

 

[oneworld2]

Surely you realize that what "End the war" means varies wildly on who you talk to, right?

Both Ukrainians and Russians want the current war to end, but do you think that translates to them wanting the same end state?

That's why you keep on with the negotiations and eventually come to some sort of an agreement to end the fighting.

In Zelensky's case any deal with Russia was a no no for the Ukrainian far right and they made it clear his life would be in danger if he negotiated an end to the fighting that gave any territorial concessions to Russia/ethnic Russian Ukrainians

This is nonsense. What happened was Russia demanded a clause that completely undercut Ukrainian negotiating goals.

View attachment 67556923

Well you can put in in massive text , as though this is an insurmountable evidential monolith BUT the negotiators themselves, according to Samuel Charap and Sergey Radchenko in an article for Foreign Policy paint a picture that's a little different.

BTW I will supply the links to things I quote, unlike yourself.

The Talks That Could Have Ended the War in Ukraine

A hidden history of diplomacy that came up short—but holds lessons for future negotiations.

www.foreignaffairs.com

Fresh evidence suggests that the April 2022 Istanbul peace deal to end the war in Ukraine was stillborn

Fresh evidence has indicated that a peace deal thrashed out between Russia and Ukraine in April 2022 that could have ended the war only months ...

www.intellinews.com

The deal, according to these two articles

A. Required the Europeans to commit to defending Ukraine if Russia attacked again, IE a direct conflict between Russia and the West.

B. That the West didn't want to commit to that

C They were pissed that Ukraine and Russia had reached a deal of sorts without them, even though the deal included commitments they were deemed to take on without being part of the negotiations.

That's a whole lot different than your unlinked NYT piece, in fact it's the complete opposite.

But regardless, you keep on negotiating in the hope of finding the solution, the articles both infer that the West vastly increased weapons and weapons commitments at the same time the diplomatic route was offering the best hope.

I know you have to say this to make you feel better, but as usual you are wrong. I have friends in Ukraine, two of whom died fighting to defend their homeland from Putin. I know you don't actually give a shit, but I do.

I don't feel bad about this on a personal level, so I don't have to do or say anything to make me feel better, so you are wrong " as usual"

Gaming friends aren't real friends imo even though, if it's at all true, I am sorry that they lost their lives in what I consider to be a needless war.

This all started in 2008 with the toxic US decision to invite Ukraine and Georgia into NATO something you appear to be just fine with btw, Had they have not set that fire, virtually everyone who has lost their lives in this needless war wouldn't have been killed in it.

So, imo, you have a dilemma. You can carry on defending that inflammatory decision made to have a real pop at Russian security, fool yourself that the US wasn't behind the events of 2013-14 and thus lie to yourself that it wasn't the reason for your friends deaths, or you can think about it seriously without the patriotic nonsense and maybe see that supporting US hegemonic policies leaves real people dead all over the globe and that this one struck closer to home for you.

You seem hopelessly lost to the US propaganda system so I'm going to guess that you choose the former

 

[Jredbaron96]

In Zelensky's case any deal with Russia was a no no for the Ukrainian far right and they made it clear his life would be in danger if he negotiated an end to the fighting that gave any territorial concessions to Russia/ethnic Russian Ukrainians

You tried this before, claiming that the reason negotiations failed was because of Ukrainian Neo-Nazis.

You were wrong then, and you're wrong now: it was never popular with Ukrainians at large.

What is the ‘Steinmeier Formula’ and why are so many Ukrainians against it?

If German President Frank-Walter Steinmeier read Ukrainian, he would be surprised how often he is mentioned by local… - Sep. 17, 2019. By Oleksiy Sorokin

www.kyivpost.com

Well you can put in in massive text , as though this is an insurmountable evidential monolith BUT the negotiators themselves, according to Samuel Charap and Sergey Radchenko in an article for Foreign Policy paint a picture that's a little different.

This source confirms what I posted from the NYT.

"A key issue was the language covering the guarantor states obligations to to come to Kyiv’s aid in the event of another attack on Ukraine. The Kremlin insisted that such action would occur only “on the basis of a decision agreed to by all guarantor states”—giving the likely invader, Russia, a veto as it was to be one of the guarantors.

Ukraine insisted on the original formula, under which all the guarantors had an individual obligation to act and would not have to reach consensus before doing so."

BTW I will supply the links to things I quote, unlike yourself.

The Talks That Could Have Ended the War in Ukraine

A hidden history of diplomacy that came up short—but holds lessons for future negotiations.

www.foreignaffairs.com

Your 2nd link is behind a paywall, and I can't read it.

That's a whole lot different than your unlinked NYT piece, in fact it's the complete opposite.

Your first link backed up what I posted.

This all started in 2008 with the toxic US decision to invite Ukraine and Georgia into NATO something you appear to be just fine with btw, Had they have not set that fire, virtually everyone who has lost their lives in this needless war wouldn't have been killed in it.

You are ignorant of history.

Five years prior to the event you claim started it all, Russia was already undermining Ukrainian sovereignty in the Tuzla Island incident. In fact, Russia always had a problem with Ukrainea borders.

https://www.chathamhouse.org/2022/08/russias-longstanding-problem-ukraines-borders

So, imo, you have a dilemma. You can carry on defending that inflammatory decision made to have a real pop at Russian security, fool yourself that the US wasn't behind the events of 2013-14

Everyone who makes this claim has never once been able to explain to me how the US got a million Ukrainians to go out and protest, or how they got Yanukovych to back out of the EU deal at the last minute. Maybe you'll finally offer something.

 

[Fledermaus]

The US never operated based on those supposed “values” prior to Trump either, as its destruction of democracies across the globe demonstrate.

You speak of all these democracies crushed..... Who are they?

 

[Tigerace117]

You speak of all these democracies crushed..... Who are they?

Guatemala, Iran, Brazil, Chile to name just a few examples.

 

[Fledermaus]

Guatemala, Iran, Brazil, Chile to name just a few examples.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

Four. How many nations fell to Communist takeover during that time?

 

[beefheart]

I wonder how many Americans are red faced by Trumps decision to negotiate an end to the war in Ukraine in bilateral talks with the Russian side only.

I mean do you ever learn that these " western values" are just useful tools with which to dupe the home population into supporting good old fashioned imperialist power plays?

Zelensky has spent the last 3 years going around the houses with the saddest demeanor on the planet only to be ****ed off from the debate about his own country's future.

The pathetic chirp that " Putin is afraid to talk to me " as a means to try to deflect/redirect from his very obvious sidelining from the talks is even worse than his constant use of army garb and perpetual miserable kipper that went with it.

At least nobody, at least those of the thinking variety, should still be conned with the " it's all about national sovereignty schtick.

The blood of the free people of Ukraine is on their hands.

They have no ethics.

 

[Tigerace117]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

Four. How many nations fell to Communist takeover during that time?

Squealing about the Nazis and their pals being crushed and corrupt tyrants being overthrown can’t excuse the US’ destruction of numerous democracies across the globe.

 

[beefheart]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

Four. How many nations fell to Communist takeover during that time?

So, if a democracy is crushed, its only important if the commies did it, not the fascists?

Such a deranged cognitive dissonance.

The people suffer equally.

 

[Fledermaus]

Squealing about the Nazis and their pals being crushed and corrupt tyrants being overthrown can’t excuse the US’ destruction of numerous democracies across the globe.

You said something relevant to the Communist dictatorships?

 

[Fledermaus]

So, if a democracy is crushed, its only important if the commies did it, not the fascists?

Such a deranged cognitive dissonance.

The people suffer equally.

I am responding in kind to Tigerace. I prefer Representative Republics and Constitutional Monarchies...