• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Ukraine strikes Kerch bridge in Crimea with underwater explosives

Tigerace117 said:
Because someone invoked said World War Two bombing campaigns, and I pointed out they were seen as morally dubious even at the time.
Click to expand...
Which has nothing to do with this which didn't harm anyone and at most is just a delaying tactic and potentially costs russia time and money to rebuild/repair. There's nothing immoral about this action to the vast majority of people.

Morals are subjective btw.
 
PeteEU said:
No it is very relevant. The state of Ukraine and its borders is a construct of the Soviet Union. Hence what that drunk ruler did is very relevant. The borders of Ukraine today is built across genocide, the fancies of Soviet leaders and in total disregard of the ethnic populations on the ground... very colonial of the Soviet Union... Western Ukraine with the city of Lviv was part of Poland for almost 1000 years, but thanks Ukrainian nationalists during WW2.. the native Poles in the city and the whole region were butchered while under Nazi control after the Soviets had annexed the area in 1939 and the Nazis invaded. So yes it is very relevant.. because Polish nationalists have been moaning about it for years.. wanting back old Polish areas in Belarus and Ukraine....


Again.. go look at an election map (2010 and back) from before the uprising in 2014. Crimea consistently elected pro-Russian candidates and selected the "Russian" candidate by 75%+. Only Donetsk, Luhansk and the city of Sevastopol had higher % voting for "Russian" presidential candidates than Crimea.. and what regions started the rebellion in? ohhh lets see.

So yes, it has never been Ukrainian, and never will be. It has been Russian, Polish-Lithuanian, Ottoman, Genoese, Mongol (various versions), Byzantine/Roman, Tatar.. but never ever Ukrainian people been there in any large numbers and only because of one drunk Soviet leader, was it transferred to the soviet made up "Ukrainian Republic" in the 1950s.

A peace deal of any sort, will have to tackle not only current day problems, but many of those problems are the result of issues created by the Nazi-Soviet alliance, the Soviet Union and even the freaking Czar before that. History can NOT be ignored in this case.. that is just a fact.
Click to expand...

Ukraine existed in one form or another for centuries before the Soviet Union.

And Kyiv for centuries before Moscow.

What is relevant to today is that Crimea was ceded to Ukraine SSR by the USSR over half a century ago A condition agreed to when the USSR fell. A condition the current Russia agreed to as well.

So yes. It is Ukrainian territory.

As to ethnic Russians in Crimea. That was due to Soviet ethnic cleansing.
 
NOLA Dude said:
$411,644? Wtf? Does that include payoffs to the people who did the drones and bombing?
Click to expand...

No idea what this company is, but it looks like a bill for a hotel stay.

You want our diplomats to sleep in tents while visiting Ukraine?
 
W_Heisenberg said:
No idea what this company is, but it looks like a bill for a hotel stay.

You want our diplomats to sleep in tents while visiting Ukraine?
Click to expand...
What kind of hotel costs almost half a million?
 
NOLA Dude said:
Anyone who believes Ukraine has been winning is either easily brainwashed by the pro war corporate media or lying.
Click to expand...

They just blew up the Kerch bridge again, and they just wiped out a ton of Russian strategic bombers. No idea what you're smoking.
 
W_Heisenberg said:
They just blew up the Kerch bridge again, and they just wiped out a ton of Russian strategic bombers. No idea what you're smoking.
Click to expand...
Right and that fools gullible people. Neither of those things will give Ukraine an advantage.
 
NOLA Dude said:
What kind of hotel costs almost half a million?
Click to expand...

How long is this contract for? How many people stayed at the hotel? How long did they stay? What's the context for the bill? I don't know any of this but you're claiming fraud and corruption. Instead you should be defending Trump's dumb meme coin, his meme coin party where he invited people to bribe him, or his DJT rug pull.
 
MTAtech said:
According to Ukraine, both the drone attack and the bridge explosion were planned for months.
Click to expand...
Maybe they just needed the $460,000 from Senator Graham to complete the deal.
 
MTAtech said:
So scale matters now? A-bombing Hiroshima was worse than Pearl Harbor.
Click to expand...
Yes comparisons are good. Your deflection doesnt change Israel's genocide.
 
Tigerace117 said:
Not when it happens to the U.S., as the descriptions of attacks on U.S. bases shows.
Click to expand...

If the US were in a war, bombing our bridges and bases would be acts of war.

Outside of a war, yeah, blowing up a bridge is terrorism.
 
PeteEU said:
This is dumb.... really dumb.
Click to expand...
Riiiiiight

PeteEU said:
If Ukraine was serious in talking peace
Click to expand...
Russia is the aggressor here, and they're the ones who are not serious.

In case you missed it, Ukraine is trying to remind the world, and especially Dear Leader, that they haven't lost, and are still capable of inflicting damage on Russia.

The bridge is also critical to Russia's supply lines. So yeah, they are not going to stop targeting it.

PeteEU said:
....they would leave this bridge in place as the Russian argument of having a land bridge to Crimea would be moot.... now that bargaining chips is gone.
Click to expand...
What the ****?

Ukraine doesn't want to give up Crimea. It shouldn't have to surrender to the illegal and immoral occupation of Crimea. That's why they keep attacking the bridge.

PeteEU said:
And before people say but but Crimea is Ukrainian.. It was never Ukrainian and never will be...
Click to expand...
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
Tigerace117 said:
Doesn’t change the way said bombing raids were perceived.
Click to expand...
Irrelevant. Its results that matter in war.
Tigerace117 said:
Opponents of Jim Crow were explicitly denounced as being “Russian agents”. “But Russia” was used to justify the torture and murder of labor activists, civil rights leaders, and the oppression of minorities in the US and atrocities across the globe.

And no amount of blind denial can change that.
Click to expand...
Russia has a long history of torture and murder. No amount of Russian apologetics can change that.
 
PeteEU said:
It takes two to tango.. Both sides have shown little in wanting peace. My point is that without that bridge, the negotiations will be even more difficult, when and if both sides finally decide they want peace.
Click to expand...

That's fair, but I don't believe the Russians are looking for peace given what their demands are and the fact they were bombing Ukraine two Thursdays ago.
 
NOLA Dude said:
View attachment 67572784
Click to expand...
that's 13k a day. How many people is that covering, in how many rooms?

It isn't just Hotel accommodations though, as per the info below, since it includes "Accommodations and Food Services". It also appears to include travel and relocation travel if needed too. They are also going to be staying in dangerous place, so likely would include some specialized transportation (perhaps provided by the hotel but charged here).
 
W_Heisenberg said:
You keep talking about topics completely unrelated to the topic of the thread, as usual.
Click to expand...
I’m not the one who started whining about “RT” or whatever. The reflexive McCarthyism of you and your pals is entirely your problem.
 
roguenuke said:
It is simply a term that has a definition that is based on a relative view in general. It is viewed, like many things, through specific lenses. That isn't "meaningless", just isn't necessarily true from every POV.

There are certain things though that are not considered terrorists attacks by the vast majority of people because they don't fit other definitions. One of those is when something is a strategic official military campaign that is intended to serve a purpose that has absolutely nothing to do with "spreading terror", like this. The main purpose of this destruction, which from what I can find didn't kill or hurt anyone, was to cut off russia at least temporarily from Crimea. It likely will be very temporary, but it doesn't change the purpose was not to terrorize people.
Click to expand...
Except military campaigns specifically carried out to cause terror—like the “enhanced interrogation” policies carried out at Guantanamo Bay and Abu Gharib and the like— aren’t described as “terrorism”, and those responsible for such actions are never actually held accountable.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom