Ukraine, All Nazis, Some Nazis, No Nazis. (1 Viewer)

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Russia is now very traditionalist and reactionary.

And fascist.

 

[Trippy Trekker]

If that were true you would know that I think the Russian invasion of Ukraine is illegal, so you wouldn't be liking posts that state I have justified it. Strange way to justify something by calling it illegal. Same with the Russian annexation of Crimea, I called that illegal too.

So how come you didn't spot the strawman?

….

Using the Advanced Search Feature, singling out just one sub forum, Russia-Ukraine, I can pull up 250 of your posts.

IMO, you put a Pro-Putin spin on many of your posts. This Pro-Putin spin offends many of us.

As for @Fledermaus (career NCO, Marines)- He and I know each other. He carried on a feud for years with @Tangmo . He now has a running feud with @Tigerace117 (bright recent college grad who grew up around Chicago, who as a child dreamed about a career as a soldier. Upon graduating, this young man enlisted in the Army and washed out due to an undisclosed medical issue). Just as an aside, even though I consider Tangmo very educated and a smart man, I went head-to-head with him many times. I also, tongue-in-cheek, drafted him (final round) onto my Inaugural Dumb Bowl squad. I might have come in 1st place (beat out @Jack Fabulous ) instead of 2nd place if I had truly drafted someone dumb in Tangmo’s place.


Fledermaus pointed @Antiwar in the direction of your posting history. I mocked Antiwar’s response AND I liked Fledermaus’ post. Simple as that. I truly doubt Antiwar made an effort to use what Fledermaus gave him as a start point for further research.

Nope, for anyone to actually believe that they would see it from the documentary record wouldn't they?

You are " aiding" Ukraine because your elite wants to use them as a proxy army to bring down Russia.

Where was the US support for the freedom of a whole host of peoples that voted in people the US didn't want to see voted in? Sooo many examples that any notion of the above is just delusional beyond belief imho

It's just bog standard geopolitics in the 21st century where the US is finally using these conflicts, or even helping create them precisely so as to use them, so as to bring down rising rivals to their global dominance.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

I've lost count about how many times I've seen you make claims you fail to back

" Tankie"? remember it ? Or is it just convenient for you to drop it now? You know, to save yourself having to support it?

You're a tankie for Putin, so just own it already, and put the damn MAGA hat on already.

 

[BitterPill]

If that were true you would know that I think the Russian invasion of Ukraine is illegal, so you wouldn't be liking posts that state I have justified it. Strange way to justify something by calling it illegal. Same with the Russian annexation of Crimea, I called that illegal too.

So how come you didn't spot the strawman?

You see, you can think something was provoked and not agree with the reaction to that provocation. Do you understand that?

I am familiar with Antiwar's antiwar posts too and think they are on the money and consistently so. You picked the wrong side for some reason imo




Yeah I remember it. I still think that the West is every bit as violent and illegal as anyone else and on scale more so. I think it's a reasonable view and at least I am consistent on it. They are crimes when we do it and crimes when official enemies do it. I think it's fair to say that my detractors aren't consistent and I am a little surprised you supported their attempt to deceive .

I live and learn and that's fine too.

I sell MAGA hats and other assorted Trump paraphenalia. PM me if interested.

MAGA.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Do you have any specific numbers or estimates on percentage of Ukranian Nazi's vs other countries in Europe?

How "far more pervasive" are they in Ukraine vs other European nations?

I still say that USA has more neo-nazis in military and law enforcement PER CAPITA than Ukraine, only difference being the Ukrainians see it in historical perspective as a tool that was used to beat the commie Soviets back when that was their big boogeyman. For a small handful, it's more than "just a patch my wife made" but for most of them I suspect that is exactly what it is, a patch and not much more.
It's like that movie "Wild Hogs".

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Using the Advanced Search Feature, singling out just one sub forum, Russia-Ukraine, I can pull up 250 of your posts.

View attachment 67426811

And the reason the ENTIRE ****ING WEST WANTS to bring down Russia IS BECAUSE they HAVE a documented history of trying to take over all of Europe, and destroying democracy in the process.
And we can go back almost a century on that particular point.
I was alive when they first erected The Berlin Wall and alive and working for American-Russian TV in West Hollywood when it got torn down.
So for all of @oneworld2's obfuscating, sea-lioning and strawmen, it still boils down to: "PUTIN=GOOD/UKRAINE=BAD" and he can't accept the fact that a democratic Ukraine as part of Europe is something with almost universal appeal outside of Putin's bubble...because he is IN that bubble.

 

[Juin]

I still say that USA has more neo-nazis in military and law enforcement PER CAPITA than Ukraine, only difference being the Ukrainians see it in historical perspective as a tool that was used to beat the commie Soviets back when that was their big boogeyman. For a small handful, it's more than "just a patch my wife made" but for most of them I suspect that is exactly what it is, a patch and not much more.
It's like that movie "Wild Hogs".

LOL Your piece brings to mind the Confederate battleflag. Confederate monuments as well. I suppose blacks should just shut up given that to most whites who honour those monuments it can be argued that it was just a tool used to beat back the northern aggressors.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

LOL Your piece brings to mind the Confederate battleflag. Confederate monuments as well. I suppose blacks should just shut up given that to most whites who honour those monuments it can be argued that it was just a tool used to beat back the northern aggressors.

My beef about Confederate flags and monuments is simple:
NO PUBLIC FUNDING whatsoever.
If people want to fly the Stars and Bars and gather round statues of Confederate heroes they can do it on their own dime and on land not funded or maintained on the taxpayer dime.
Move that crap onto private land or into a private museum and I can't bitch about them anymore.

You don't know shee-it about the subject, seeing as how you didn't live it, furriner.

Furthermore, you have the players mixed up 180° ...

In the Thirties, the Russkies siphoned off all Ukrainian food stocks, starved Ukrainians literally to death, ethnically cleansed hundreds of thousands of them and moved blocks of Russian families into their former homes in the East.
As expected, your above response makes it out as if the Russians are the victims.

 

[mrjurrs]

There is much confusion it seems. It comes up so often I think it needs its own thread, so.........

My view.

The Russian hype over the prevalence of Nazis in Ukraine has been used to gain support for the war at home and is not an accurate depiction of the situation in Ukraine over the last decade or so.

The notion that there are no Nazis in Ukraine is so ridiculous that I don't think it merits further enquiry.

I think the most accurate description is that there are some Nazis in Ukraine and unlike other places their influence and activities are far more pervasive and thus damaging to Ukrainians themselves.

Since 2014 and the subsequent civil war in Donbas, that some contend is a Russian proxy war, the Russian people have been subject to a campaign of propaganda that frames the conflict as an ethnic cleansing/genocide of ethnic Russians by Ukrainian neo Nazis. Sometimes this is accompanied by claims that Ukraine itself is a " Nazi state" which is, imo, complete nonsense.

Since February 2022, here in the West, the propaganda campaign has sought to downplay the influence and even existence of Nazi types in Ukraine so as to assure ongoing support for its backing of Ukraine and as a result what was acknowledged and even covered in some western MSM outlets, certainly from 2014 onwards, was the real danger of and rise of the far right Azov/Right Sector in Ukraine.

Here follows some reading from the relevant period and I think it shows that both the Russian narrative and the western narrative are inaccurate. The one that most fits is, imo, is the view that the far right is overrepresented in Ukraine leading to some very serious issues for Ukraine and Ukrainians themselves.


frpm January 2020

https://freedomhouse.org/sites/default/files/2020-02/FarRightEurasia_FINAL_.pdf

very good from sometime before 2022

The unique extra-parliamentary power of Ukrainian radical nationalists is a threat to the political regime and minorities - The Foreign Policy Centre

Editor’s Note (February 2022): It has come to our attention that this piece has been used in online debate seemingly to give credence to Russian propaganda that Ukraine or its Government is a ‘neo-nazi’ state or that there is some legitimacy to President Putin’s claims that his central war aim...

fpc.org.uk

from March 2018

Commentary: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem

As Ukraine's struggle against Russia and its proxies continues, Kiev must also contend with a growing problem behind the front lines: far-right vigilantes who are willing to use intimidation and even violence to advance their agendas, and who often do so with the tacit approval of law...

www.reuters.com

From January 2021

How a White-Supremacist Militia Uses Facebook to Radicalize and Train New Members

This Ukrainian militant group’s use of social media has been key to their international growth

time.com

So which country has more Nazis, Ukraine or America?

 

[Quag]

So which country has more Nazis, Ukraine or America?

Russia

 

[oneworld2]

Do you have any specific numbers or estimates on percentage of Ukranian Nazi's vs other countries in Europe?

How "far more pervasive" are they in Ukraine vs other European nations?

I think it's hard to be accurate on numbers because of the nature of the issue and the changing aspects of the situation.

For example with the Right wing in Ukraine having to rely on western support so as to fight off/with Russians/fellow Ukrainians albeit ethnic Russian Ukrainians will play into the openness or not of wearing the badge in public.

.

In 2012 the far right Sloboda party won 10% of the votes in a voting turn out of 20 million. That's 2 million votes but that doesn't equate to 2 million Nazis either but it's still a eye opening statistic imo That was obviously before the events of 2013/2014 and the subsequent.

I remember the BNP getting I million votes here in the UK which has a much bigger population than Ukraine and that's when the govt decided to cut off their legs

That the US senate has specifically made reference to Neo Nazi types NOT getting any of the weapons/training from the yearly donations to Ukraine. That in itself should give you some indication of the scale of the issue. I suppose when you incorporate battalions of extremist militias into the national army it creates a PR problem for western donors and that might reflect in the willingness of those to show their true colours.

Maybe it's time for a quote from the linked articles

However, the extra-parliamentary power of the Ukrainian far right is uniquely strong in the whole of Europe. In no other European country do radical nationalists control large politically loyal armed units relatively autonomous from the official military and law enforcement structures.

The unique extra-parliamentary power of Ukrainian radical nationalists is a threat to the political regime and minorities - The Foreign Policy Centre

Editor’s Note (February 2022): It has come to our attention that this piece has been used in online debate seemingly to give credence to Russian propaganda that Ukraine or its Government is a ‘neo-nazi’ state or that there is some legitimacy to President Putin’s claims that his central war aim...

fpc.org.uk

I would strongly urge you to read this article instead of having me create a mass and thus unreadable series of posts.

 

[vegas giants]

I think it's hard to be accurate on numbers because of the nature of the issue and the changing aspects of the situation.

For example with the Right wing in Ukraine having to rely on western support so as to fight off/with Russians/fellow Ukrainians albeit ethnic Russian Ukrainians will play into the openness or not of wearing the badge in public.

.

In 2012 the far right Sloboda party won 10% of the votes in a voting turn out of 20 million. That's 2 million votes but that doesn't equate to 2 million Nazis either but it's still a eye opening statistic imo That was obviously before the events of 2013/2014 and the subsequent.

I remember the BNP getting I million votes here in the UK which has a much bigger population than Ukraine and that's when the govt decided to cut off their legs

That the US senate has specifically made reference to Neo Nazi types NOT getting any of the weapons/training from the yearly donations to Ukraine. That in itself should give you some indication of the scale of the issue. I suppose when you incorporate battalions of extremist militias into the national army it creates a PR problem for western donors and that might reflect in the willingness of those to show their true colours.

Maybe it's time for a quote from the linked articles

The unique extra-parliamentary power of Ukrainian radical nationalists is a threat to the political regime and minorities - The Foreign Policy Centre

Editor’s Note (February 2022): It has come to our attention that this piece has been used in online debate seemingly to give credence to Russian propaganda that Ukraine or its Government is a ‘neo-nazi’ state or that there is some legitimacy to President Putin’s claims that his central war aim...

fpc.org.uk

I would strongly urge you to read this article instead of having me create a mass and thus unreadable series of posts.

Why should I care if they have nazis or not?

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

For example with the Right wing in Ukraine having to rely on western support so as to fight off/with Russians/fellow Ukrainians albeit ethnic Russian Ukrainians will play into the openness or not of wearing the badge in public.

TROLL BAIT DETECTED, as the ones relying on Western support envision a free and DEMOCRATIC EUROPEAN Ukraine, not a far Right neo-nazi Ukraine.
You tried to hide your troll bait but you didn't try very hard, and by the way, that's why I don't take arguing with you seriously at all.
You're a tankie in desperate need of a Trump hat because like so many on the Far Left, the Horseshoe Theory has raised its head and sooner or later we will get an announcement from you that "shitlib Dems and other liberals" forced you to go to the Far Right.
You're pretty much the Glenn Greenwald of DP, or should I say the Jimmy Dore of DP?
Either way, you're in the tank for Putin and you think Ukraine is overrun with nazis and therefore Ukraine, in your opinion, is better off as part of Russia again, because Ukraine cannot be trusted with its own self-determination.

 

[oneworld2]

So which country has more Nazis, Ukraine or America?

If I had to make a call I would say the US. Why? Because it has 10 times the population of Ukraine.

If I had to say which Nazis had the most influence on national politics I would opt for Ukraine.

I mean I don't recall a US president being forced to back down because of a very real threat on their lives from the far right of the US but I could be wrong.

 

[oneworld2]

Why should I care if they have nazis or not?

Nobody has your arm up your back to make a call, so it's your decision what you make of it all or not.

 

[vegas giants]

Nobody has your arm up your back to make a call, so it's your decision what you make of it all or not.

Then i don't care

 

[The Mark]

There is much confusion it seems. It comes up so often I think it needs its own thread, so.........

My view.

The Russian hype over the prevalence of Nazis in Ukraine has been used to gain support for the war at home and is not an accurate depiction of the situation in Ukraine over the last decade or so.

The notion that there are no Nazis in Ukraine is so ridiculous that I don't think it merits further enquiry.

I think the most accurate description is that there are some Nazis in Ukraine and unlike other places their influence and activities are far more pervasive and thus damaging to Ukrainians themselves.

Since 2014 and the subsequent civil war in Donbas, that some contend is a Russian proxy war, the Russian people have been subject to a campaign of propaganda that frames the conflict as an ethnic cleansing/genocide of ethnic Russians by Ukrainian neo Nazis. Sometimes this is accompanied by claims that Ukraine itself is a " Nazi state" which is, imo, complete nonsense.

Since February 2022, here in the West, the propaganda campaign has sought to downplay the influence and even existence of Nazi types in Ukraine so as to assure ongoing support for its backing of Ukraine and as a result what was acknowledged and even covered in some western MSM outlets, certainly from 2014 onwards, was the real danger of and rise of the far right Azov/Right Sector in Ukraine.

Here follows some reading from the relevant period and I think it shows that both the Russian narrative and the western narrative are inaccurate. The one that most fits is, imo, is the view that the far right is overrepresented in Ukraine leading to some very serious issues for Ukraine and Ukrainians themselves.


frpm January 2020

https://freedomhouse.org/sites/default/files/2020-02/FarRightEurasia_FINAL_.pdf

very good from sometime before 2022

The unique extra-parliamentary power of Ukrainian radical nationalists is a threat to the political regime and minorities - The Foreign Policy Centre

Editor’s Note (February 2022): It has come to our attention that this piece has been used in online debate seemingly to give credence to Russian propaganda that Ukraine or its Government is a ‘neo-nazi’ state or that there is some legitimacy to President Putin’s claims that his central war aim...

fpc.org.uk

from March 2018

Commentary: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem

As Ukraine's struggle against Russia and its proxies continues, Kiev must also contend with a growing problem behind the front lines: far-right vigilantes who are willing to use intimidation and even violence to advance their agendas, and who often do so with the tacit approval of law...

www.reuters.com

From January 2021

How a White-Supremacist Militia Uses Facebook to Radicalize and Train New Members

This Ukrainian militant group’s use of social media has been key to their international growth

time.com

My understanding is that there are a small number of Nazi-like groups and people in Ukraine - they've been allowed more leeway than I think would be normal because some of them are willing to engage in combat with Russia.

I expect that Ukraine will have to deal with their existence after Russia leaves, if it does.


I would say that Ukraine has "some nazis", but more precisely "a few nazis"

 

[oneworld2]

TROLL BAIT DETECTED, as the ones relying on Western support envision a free and DEMOCRATIC EUROPEAN Ukraine, not a far Right neo-nazi Ukraine.
You tried to hide your troll bait but you didn't try very hard, and by the way, that's why I don't take arguing with you seriously at all.
You're a tankie in desperate need of a Trump hat because like so many on the Far Left, the Horseshoe Theory has raised its head and sooner or later we will get an announcement from you that "shitlib Dems and other liberals" forced you to go to the Far Right.
You're pretty much the Glenn Greenwald of DP, or should I say the Jimmy Dore of DP?
Either way, you're in the tank for Putin and you think Ukraine is overrun with nazis and therefore Ukraine, in your opinion, is better off as part of Russia again, because Ukraine cannot be trusted with its own self-determination.

I highlighted the very real " troll bait" in the ridiculous commentary above. You do love your pathetic drive bys and then retreat when asked to put some meat on the bones.

So let's take some of it to task before you run off again

your comment

"you think Ukraine is overrun with nazis"

here's what I wrote in the OP

My view.

The Russian hype over the prevalence of Nazis in Ukraine has been used to gain support for the war at home and is not an accurate depiction of the situation in Ukraine over the last decade or so.

The notion that there are no Nazis in Ukraine is so ridiculous that I don't think it merits further enquiry.

I think the most accurate description is that there are some Nazis in Ukraine and unlike other places their influence and activities are far more pervasive and thus damaging to Ukrainians themselves.

Thus your troll baiting is baseless accusation UNLESS you can find me and quote me actually saying I thinl Ukraine is " overrun with nazis ( sic) " Good luck on that.

And the " tankie" name calling lol is a revisit that you have already failed to support even with the help of others.

And as for me " going to the far right" well, here I am making a thread about the dangers the far Right pose and not only in Ukraine or Russia ( which I also mentioned in the OP )

Your pathetic name calling and smearing say more about you than you might even realize. Luckily for me I am capable of showing how inaccurate your ongoing tantrum driven commentary is.

 

[oneworld2]

Then i don't care

ok,

 

[Lycanthrope]

If there were Nazis in Ukraine Trump would have invited them to dinner already.

 

[oneworld2]

My understanding is that there are a small number of Nazi-like groups and people in Ukraine - they've been allowed more leeway than I think would be normal because some of them are willing to engage in combat with Russia.

I expect that Ukraine will have to deal with their existence after Russia leaves, if it does.


I would say that Ukraine has "some nazis", but more precisely "a few nazis"

I agree that the Russian hype over the numbers is just for political reasons and stated from the off that I don't subscribe to it.

That said I think the Far Right are more numerous in Ukraine than most places in Europe and beyond. That it has served as something of a hub for far right white supremacist types in not really in question, they have been arriving there in their thousands since Maidan and that's a fact.

As the articles clearly show their real force is " extra parliamentary" with a network of local district leaders, armed gangs that have been engaged in intimidation of the electoral and judicial systems in Ukraine prior to the Russian invasion this year. ( all documented in the articles/info linked in the OP ) you should read them imo because you seem genuinely interested.

They were written before Zelenskys election victory so won't include any references to the right wing threat to kill Zelensky should he dare give the people of Donbas an election regarding a regional autonomy for the separatist areas .

I would say they have more Nazi types than most states and that their influence on national policy/culture etc is disproportionate to their numbers.

 

[oneworld2]

And the reason the ENTIRE ****ING WEST WANTS to bring down Russia IS BECAUSE they HAVE a documented history of trying to take over all of Europe, and destroying democracy in the process.
And we can go back almost a century on that particular point.
I was alive when they first erected The Berlin Wall and alive and working for American-Russian TV in West Hollywood when it got torn down.
So for all of @oneworld2's obfuscating, sea-lioning and strawmen, it still boils down to: "PUTIN=GOOD/UKRAINE=BAD" and he can't accept the fact that a democratic Ukraine as part of Europe is something with almost universal appeal outside of Putin's bubble...because he is IN that bubble.

Except that my position allows me to call the annexation of Crimea an illegal act.

It also allows me to call the war itself an illegal war, definitely provoked, but illegal nonetheless.

It allows me too to say that the vast majority of Ukrainians are not Nazis and have suffered from the actions of right wingers that I think have too much influence for their numbers.

I can say Ukraine has the right to defend itself. That a negotiated settlement sooner rather than later would have probably been the better option for Ukraine and Ukrainians leading to it hanging on to more territory and saving hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian ( and Russian ) lives, along with the country not being turned in a wasteland.

So your " PUTIN=GOOD/UKRAINE=BAD " accusation, like every other one you have made, is built on a misrepresentation of my positions. But if it's all you got ,it's all you got, I suppose.

 

[oneworld2]

I sell MAGA hats and other assorted Trump paraphenalia. PM me if interested.

MAGA.

MAGA suggests that the US was once great and I really don't subscribe to that. Call me a softie but I really struggle with that genocide of the indigenous people stuff.

But thx for the offer.

 

[oneworld2]

You're a tankie for Putin, so just own it already, and put the damn MAGA hat on already.

Just because you say so , don't make it so.

 

[oneworld2]

Using the Advanced Search Feature, singling out just one sub forum, Russia-Ukraine, I can pull up 250 of your posts.

I know and that's fine with me because NOTHING you have cited supports their or your own opinion imo Most of it is a rant against the US and its penchant for starting conflicts and committing crimes and I think the record completely endorses that view. They are involved in the provocations that have led to this war too, so mentioning that is relevant to the discussion

IMO, you put a Pro-Putin spin on many of your posts. This Pro-Putin spin offends many of us.

Is it " pro Putin spin " or is it just a disagreeing of the western narratives that are not being allowed to be questioned or judged?

I think what " offends" people here is having to listen/read peoples views that are damning of their own nations and the crimes/carnage they have caused. It's natural enough imo but the charges are fairly indisputable and backed by a mass of supporting evidence, which actually gets the heckles up more.

You are entitled to your opinion but I am too. If you prefer echo chambers that's your choice too.

I assure you when /if this war ends you will find out that much of the tales you were led to believe were wrong. The MSM here will/might when it becomes impossible to spin it any other way admit that much of what they said was wrong, like they had to do with illegal US war on Iraq.

As for @Fledermaus (career NCO, Marines)- He and I know each other. He carried on a feud for years with @Tangmo . He now has a running feud with @Tigerace117 (bright recent college grad who grew up around Chicago, who as a child dreamed about a career as a soldier. Upon graduating, this young man enlisted in the Army and washed out due to an undisclosed medical issue). Just as an aside, even though I consider Tangmo very educated and a smart man, I went head-to-head with him many times. I also, tongue-in-cheek, drafted him (final round) onto my Inaugural Dumb Bowl squad. I might have come in 1st place (beat out @Jack Fabulous ) instead of 2nd place if I had truly drafted someone dumb in Tangmo’s place.

All well and good but of no interest to me tbh

Fledermaus pointed @Antiwar in the direction of your posting history. I mocked Antiwar’s response AND I liked Fledermaus’ post. Simple as that. I truly doubt Antiwar made an effort to use what Fledermaus gave him as a start point for further research.

No he claimed , falsely, that I had " justified" the war and Antiwar called him out on it. He failed to support that claim because he couldn't actually find anything to support it and was forced to take the ridiculous stance that if you say something was provoked you are justifying the response and that's nonsense. You can say something was provoked and still say that the response wasn't justified. I know you are smart enough to know that this is true so I am thinking your closeness to another poster probably caused you to drop logic and reason for the cause. That's your choice but that's what it was.

View attachment 67426811

They are fine

Pick one that shows me actually saying the Russian attack on Ukraine was justified ? I can see one already where I call it illegal.

But cite me actually saying the Russian attack is justified and you will support that claim, until such time it remains an accusation built on misrepresentation.