UK EU referendum [W:40:728]

[Jack Hays]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Turkey should join the EU when religious fundamentalists are already undercut.

You looked at Turkey lately?

The problem is not secularism vs. religious fundamentalism, it's nationalist despotism vs. democratic rule. Deficits in democracy, law, rights etc. are the things that she needs to address first of all.

BEFORE even being considered eligible for joining.

You get to join the club if you fulfil the required criteria, it isn't the EU's job to fulfil them for you.

The risks of bringing Turkey in, and leaning on the side of secular democracy, are less than the risks of keeping Turkey out. If the EU wants to wear big boy pants it's time to take on some big boy tasks.

 

[Andalublue]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

What is clear watching news videos and interviews on the street, "immigration" has become a touch paper word for the brexit campaign. Everything is the fault of immigrants apparently and even when the truth is shown or counter figures - the damage has been done.

I think we just have to hope and pray that the good common sense of British people will prevail and realise that we are being invited to blame all the nation's woes on immigrants. Not on demagogic politicians, incompetent economists or rapacious City traders, but on the weakest and most vulnerable section of society. I'm so worried and so fearful that the UK is headed back to the vile politics of the early-Eighties, or even to the terror of the European Thirties. I genuinely believe that Farage, Gove and Johnson would herald an era of terrible and nation-destroying demagoguery.

 

[Andalublue]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

You get to join the club if you fulfil the required criteria, it isn't the EU's job to fulfil them for you.

That's the point. I'm the biggest fan of Turkey and the Turks you could find. I spend a load of time there most years. I love the country and its people unreservedly but, given the direction the Islamo-nationalists of AKP are taking the country, it is heading in exactly the opposite direction to the one it needs to take to fulfil its accession criteria. Turkey is less likely to qualify for EU membership now than at any time since the 1980 coup.

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

That's the point. I'm the biggest fan of Turkey and the Turks you could find. I spend a load of time there most years. I love the country and its people unreservedly but, given the direction the Islamo-nationalists of AKP are taking the country, it is heading in exactly the opposite direction to the one it needs to take to fulfil its accession criteria. Turkey is less likely to qualify for EU membership now than at any time since the 1980 coup.

Pro-Europe Turks need your help. Are you brave enough to help them?

 

[Chagos]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

The risks of bringing Turkey in, and leaning on the side of secular democracy, are less than the risks of keeping Turkey out. If the EU wants to wear big boy pants it's time to take on some big boy tasks.

Sounds like you're confusing Europe with some other place you know better. I've already pointed out the criteria for EU membership and they don't consist of bringing democracy elsewhere.

Not to Turkey, not to Iraq and not to Chile or whatever place is currently fashionable by standards which mean diddly squat here.

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Sound like you're confusing Europe with some other place you know better. I've already pointed out the criteria for EU membership and they don't consist of bringing democracy elsewhere.

Not to Turkey, not to Iraq and not to Chile or whatever place is currently fashionable by standards which mean diddly squat here.

This is in Europe's interest. As I already posted, the risk of bringing Turkey in is less than the risk of keeping Turkey out. The EU's geography is a hand the EU was dealt. What the EU does about it is a choice.

 

[Chagos]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Pro-Europe Turks need your help. Are you brave enough to help them?

If you had any knowledge (or barring that, interest in researching) on current inner Turkish conditions and her relations in and to the European theatre, you'd provide some founded analysis on which you base your claims.

Without any of that the latter remain just another bunch of one-liner soundbites that're as irrelevant as any slogan.

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

If you had any knowledge (or barring that, interest in researching) on current inner Turkish conditions and her relations in and to the European theatre, you'd provide some founded analysis on which you base your claims.

Without any of that the latter remain just another bunch of one-liner soundbites that're as irrelevant as any slogan.

I spent decades engaged with Turks around the world. Pro-Europe Turks are friends. I'm not talking about "inner Turkish conditions." I'm talking about Europe's interests and the struggle of pro-Europe Turks.

 

[Chagos]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

This is in Europe's interest.

Simply repeating what's nothing more than an opinion does not serve as an answer to my original "why?"

and

As I already posted, the risk of bringing Turkey in is less than the risk of keeping Turkey out.

neither does the above just on the strength of you saying so.

The EU's geography is a hand the EU was dealt. What the EU does about it is a choice.

If that statement is supposed to substantiate your claim, I suggest you put more efforts into building an actual case.

Platitudes don't serve.

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Simply repeating what's nothing more than an opinion does not serve as an answer to my original "why?"

and neither does the above just on the strength of you saying so. If that statement is supposed to substantiate your claim, I suggest you put more efforts into building an actual case.

Platitudes don't serve.

I'm not trying to make a case. I offered my view. Take it or leave it.
This is of course a matter for Europeans to address. I think your future will be happier if you are braver about Turkey now, but that's up to you.

 

[Chagos]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

I spent decades engaged with Turks around the world. Pro-Europe Turks are friends. I'm not talking about "inner Turkish conditions." I'm talking about Europe's interests and the struggle of pro-Europe Turks.

As I said, try for making a case.

To remind you, my question in response to (all) your claims was "why?"

You can refer to this

If you had any knowledge (or barring that, interest in researching) on current inner Turkish conditions and her relations in and to the European theatre, you'd provide some founded analysis on which you base your claims.

Without any of that the latter remain just another bunch of one-liner soundbites that're as irrelevant as any slogan.

and this

~----------- I suggest you put more efforts into building an actual case.

Platitudes don't serve.

 

[Chagos]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

I'm not trying to make a case. I offered my view. Take it or leave it.
This is of course a matter for Europeans to address. I think your future will be happier if you are braver about Turkey now, but that's up to you.

Okay, we cross-posted.

Thanks for clearing that up and I'll now leave it.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Why??

There is no reason to speed Turkey's membership up other than a Machiavellian plot to get the UK out. Mr Hays has repeatedly posted stories predominantly arguing for the UK to leave so I find an equally ardent response for Turkey's fast-track membership mischievous and rather obvious.

The EU is not built or designed to enforce western ideals, if Turkey somehow joined in the state she is in now, there is nothing in the EU's makeup that would encourage the position of pro-Western Turks or foster democracy or any of the ideals we would espouse.

I think we just have to hope and pray that the good common sense of British people will prevail and realise that we are being invited to blame all the nation's woes on immigrants ~

That pretty much is the problem Andy. Everything currently is blamed on immigrants; you recall Farage blaming late arrival to a talk show on immigrants rather than his tardy timekeeping or setting off in time or possibly even sheer bad luck on the motorway.

It was criticised at the time but they are a favourite bogeyman and a lot of this particular mud is sticking. I can point to any number of news walkabouts in towns where leave replies outnumber remain replies.

 

[gunner]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Out campaign take 7 point lead. Like in the Scottish referendum a lot of threats coming in, the latest from the Germans.

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Out campaign take 7 point lead. Like in the Scottish referendum a lot of threats coming in, the latest from the Germans.

Ah. Germans threatening Britain. Just like old times.

 

[Jack Hays]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Britain Moves Closer to Leaving EU
Andrew Grice, The Independent

 

[PeteEU]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Out campaign take 7 point lead. Like in the Scottish referendum a lot of threats coming in, the latest from the Germans.

Link?

 

[gunner]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Link?

Coming from you :rofl

EU Referendum: Massive swing to Brexit ? with just 12 days to go | UK Politics | News | The Independent

No single market access for UK after Brexit, Wolfgang Schäuble says | Politics | The Guardian

 

[gunner]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Corbyn 7 out of 10 on Bremain

Corbyn: I'm 'seven out of 10' on EU - Corbyn: I'm 'seven out of 10' on EU - BBC News

 

[Chagos]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Ah. Germans threatening Britain. Just like old times.

You need to follow the thread more closely.

That the Guardian article (that gunner finally links to 4 posts later) quote mines like there's no tomorrow, has already been pointed out here.

Obviously on account of it already having been linked to earlier and dealt with.

 

[Chagos]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Coming from you :rofl
No single market access for UK after Brexit, Wolfgang Schäuble says | Politics | The Guardian

see #820

 

[Chagos]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

There is no reason to speed Turkey's membership up other than a Machiavellian plot to get the UK out. Mr Hays has repeatedly posted stories predominantly arguing for the UK to leave so I find an equally ardent response for Turkey's fast-track membership mischievous and rather obvious.

The EU is not built or designed to enforce western ideals, if Turkey somehow joined in the state she is in now, there is nothing in the EU's makeup that would encourage the position of pro-Western Turks or foster democracy or any of the ideals we would espouse...~

Aye.

Especially since the EU member states are generally leery of spreading overall EU values by sending the tanks in. Exceptions to the rule not forfeiting it and going into Iraq (for those that did) wasn't about according it membership anyway.

 

[Infinite Chaos]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

~ Especially since the EU member states are generally leery of spreading overall EU values by sending the tanks in ~

They'd have to send tanks within the EU and into Hungary first if the EU was to try and enforce Western values, followed soon by Poland.

 

[Chagos]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

They'd have to send tanks within the EU and into Hungary first if the EU was to try and enforce Western values, followed soon by Poland.

.........another two which should have been granted entry as little as Turkey is being granted it now.

Don't get me started on Balkans and Cyprus.

 

[PeteEU]

Re: UK EU referendum [W:40]

Coming from you :rofl

No single market access for UK after Brexit, Wolfgang Schäuble says | Politics | The Guardian

The first link is irrelevant to what I asked. And I dont follow everything out there... no one can.

As for what Wolfgang said..it is no threat, it is reality.

“That won’t work,” Schäuble told Der Spiegel. “It would require the country to abide by the rules of a club from which it currently wants to withdraw.

He is correct. You want out, which means you dont want to follow the EU rules. Since you dont want to do that, then you cant have access to the common market. It is no threat.. it is what will happen.