U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed Air (1 Viewer)

[American]

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

Urban enviroment were the Enemy hides among civillians populations, and were no uniform. Warning shots don't stop this fanitical enemy. Ballin I like you but until you get over here you don't really understand.

Seems to me it would be more dangerous to fire warning shots in an urban settings than an open field, comparatively speaking. In the urban setting you're closer in and have less time and cover to take those kinds of chances.

 

[cpgrad08]

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

Seems to me it would be more dangerous to fire warning shots in an urban settings than an open field, comparatively speaking. In the urban setting you're closer in and have less time and cover to take those kinds of chances.

Warning are dangerous always. They can give your position away, give the the enemy the chance to take cover. Shoot to kill is the best policy at least form a Marine perspective. This applied to in the field. Check Points and such have different ROE. but they all involve if you have to shoot you shoot to kill.

 

[OscarB63]

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

I'm fine with not going in and helping. Our military is damned good at what it's trained to do. They are not trained to be police officers, they're trained to be soldiers. There's a big difference. When you start demanding police action out of the military, you expose the military to additional dangers, regulations, and rules which normally wouldn't apply. We are not good with the whole imperial thing. And I for one say good. I want a strong, unstoppable, defensive military. If the men and women of the military are resolved to put it all on the line for my rights and sovereignty; then that's all I want them fighting for. It's a huge commitment to say that you'll run into these areas and fight, possibly die, in order to protect. We have a duty to honor that resolve and to ask our military only to act on that integrity when our own freedom and sovereignty are at stake.

Other countries have to fend for themselves, I'm not going to pay in terms of American blood and American money for other people's governments. They can do that themselves.

MP's are trained to be both soldiers and police officers... otherwise good point

 

[cpgrad08]

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

MP's are trained to be both soldiers and police officers... otherwise good point

Oscar you can't aspect the rest of the Military to be as kick *** as us MPs. =)

 

[Wiseone]

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

Oscar you can't aspect the rest of the Military to be as kick *** as us MPs. =)

Except when it comes to proper word usage

 

[OscarB63]

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

Not everyone is trained to fire warning shoots. In the Marine Corps if you open fire you shoot to kill. No warning shoots no wounding shoots. Not sure what the other branches policies are.

during my last deployment, the ROE specifically forbade firing warning shots. If you had to shoot, you shot to kill. that goes back to "if you haven't been there, you really don't know what the rules and conditions are, so you are best off keeping your uninformed opinion to yourself"

 

[Zyphlin]

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

If you had been paying attention you would have realized that that was a sarcastic statement. Now since it's apparent that you weren't a chopper pilot, where in your personal experience does it say being able to kill with impunity from the air is more stressful than getting pinned down and potentially getting killed?

Strawman...

The stress on the pilot is not generated due to the danger to himself. The stress on the pilot is generated due to the danger to his fellow soldier whose life in part rested on his decision.

 

[StillBallin75]

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

Strawman...

The stress on the pilot is not generated due to the danger to himself. The stress on the pilot is generated due to the danger to his fellow soldier whose life in part rested on his decision.

Point conceded. With respect to dontworrybehappy's original point however, it's still true that different soldiers face different situations and different levels of stress, which was what I was trying to get at. It's hard to measure just how much is "halfway as stressful." Certainly a President debating whether or not to go to war places a great burden on him, not because he himself is in danger, but because his decisions affect the lives of people on a grand scale.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

Isn't it a cardinal sin to not have identified your target before you shoot...should at least figure out if your target is armed/hostile before one pulls the trigger?

In war, you hesitate, you die.


They could have been coming to rescue, kidnapp or kill., Would you choose to leave that to the unkown people?

 

[StillBallin75]

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

In war, you hesitate, you die.


They could have been coming to rescue, kidnapp or kill., Would you choose to leave that to the unkown people?

Well in truthfulness we don't know the exact situation or thought process that the pilot/gunner was going through when he was approaching the downed air crew so it's hard to say what actually happened. Given the few facts we do know, personally (I know a lot of people don't agree with me on this), I would hold off on pulling the trigger until I was close enough to assess the situation. The idea of firing into a crowd as soon as you're in visual range, but not close enough to identify the target, is a bit alien to me.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

Well in truthfulness we don't know the exact situation or thought process that the pilot/gunner was going through when he was approaching the downed air crew so it's hard to say what actually happened. Given the few facts we do know, personally (I know a lot of people don't agree with me on this), I would hold off on pulling the trigger until I was close enough to assess the situation. The idea of firing into a crowd as soon as you're in visual range, but not close enough to identify the target, is a bit alien to me.

If you choose wrong, your dead. And yes, I can say I have some insight into this sort of thing.

 

[cpgrad08]

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

Well in truthfulness we don't know the exact situation or thought process that the pilot/gunner was going through when he was approaching the downed air crew so it's hard to say what actually happened. Given the few facts we do know, personally (I know a lot of people don't agree with me on this), I would hold off on pulling the trigger until I was close enough to assess the situation. The idea of firing into a crowd as soon as you're in visual range, but not close enough to identify the target, is a bit alien to me.

Hopefully not for long young Devil Pup.

 

[StillBallin75]

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

If you choose wrong, your dead. And yes, I can say I have some insight into this sort of thing.

Hey, obviously you have more experience in this sort of thing and I respect that. It's just my personal opinion, is all.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

Hey, obviously you have more experience in this sort of thing and I respect that. It's just my personal opinion, is all.

And your opinion is not without merit, I can't describe the ocean if you haven't seen it, and your hesitation, is probably healthy for society.

 

[StillBallin75]

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

Hopefully not for long young Devil Pup.

Well hopefully I never have to face such a situation, but if it happens i'm going to rely on my training and my gut and just hope things turn out okay.

 

[dirtpoorchris]

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

I think if I was a soldier and had a fully automatic weapon with enough practice reloading I wouldnt be scared of 20 unarmed people trying to surrounding me. Once they got within 8 feet I would suddenly point my gun at them at tell them to get the **** back though unless I was fully convinced they where friendly. (but alas I've never been in a situation like this. I have been surrounded by a-holes that hated me because I was white though, And escaped from those 6-8 people when I was a kid. I ran and flew atop this giant electric thingy with metal covering. Once they surrounded me I kicked them all in the face.) Firing on an unarmed person outside of 4-5xmelee range would cowardly if they had angry faces and where trying to surround you and blitz you.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

I think if I was a soldier and had a fully automatic weapon with enough practice reloading I wouldnt be scared of 20 unarmed people trying to surrounding me. Once they got within 8 feet I would suddenly point my gun at them at tell them to get the **** back though unless I was fully convinced they where friendly. (but alas I've never been in a situation like this. I have been surrounded by a-holes that hated me because I was white though, And escaped from those 6-8 people when I was a kid. I ran and flew atop this giant electric thingy with metal covering. Once they surrounded me I kicked them all in the face.) Firing on an unarmed person outside of 4-5xmelee range would cowardly if they had angry faces and where trying to surround you and blitz you.

this isn't Call of Duty black ops......

 

[dirtpoorchris]

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

You are right this is real life.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

You are right this is real life.

Yes, and you have the rest of your life to win a gun fight.

 

[StillBallin75]

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

this isn't Call of Duty black ops......

lol I had to laugh at that a bit. On a side note, air crews are generally issued sidearms for just such a situation if they are downed, are they not?

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

lol I had to laugh at that a bit. On a side note, air crews are generally issued sidearms for just such a situation if they are downed, are they not?

You mean the rescue team?

If they were PJ's they carry a bit more than a side arm.....

 

[StillBallin75]

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

You mean the rescue team?

If they were PJ's they carry a bit more than a side arm.....

No I'm not talking about PJ's (and from what I've heard I think in this case it was a Marine TRAP team, but that's neither here nor there). I was talking about pilots being issued sidearms in the case that they get shot down, would that be true?

 

[cpgrad08]

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

No I'm not talking about PJ's (and from what I've heard I think in this case it was a Marine TRAP team, but that's neither here nor there). I was talking about pilots being issued sidearms in the case that they get shot down, would that be true?

Pilots since they are Officers get issued the M9.

 

[OscarB63]

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

I think if I was a soldier and had a fully automatic weapon with enough practice reloading I wouldnt be scared of 20 unarmed people trying to surrounding me. Once they got within 8 feet I would suddenly point my gun at them at tell them to get the **** back though unless I was fully convinced they where friendly. (but alas I've never been in a situation like this. I have been surrounded by a-holes that hated me because I was white though, And escaped from those 6-8 people when I was a kid. I ran and flew atop this giant electric thingy with metal covering. Once they surrounded me I kicked them all in the face.) Firing on an unarmed person outside of 4-5xmelee range would cowardly if they had angry faces and where trying to surround you and blitz you.

and if they weren't friendly, once they got within 8 feet and one of them detonated the suicide vest he was wearing, your ass would be DEAD

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

Re: U.S. rescue chopper shoots six Libyan villagers as they welcome pilots of downed

No I'm not talking about PJ's (and from what I've heard I think in this case it was a Marine TRAP team, but that's neither here nor there). I was talking about pilots being issued sidearms in the case that they get shot down, would that be true?

Baretta 92f (M9).... POS.