Twist in Green Beret’s Extraordinary Story: Trump’s Intervention After Murder Charges

[Mr Person]

So the U.S. should go off the world stage as a noble, humane loser? Or a pitiful, helpless giant?

If you accuse your enemy of being evil for doing certain things and then you start doing those things, you aren't still somehow on the high road because they started it.

 

[EnigmaO01]

A shoutout to President Trump if he eventually pardons that soldier (if convicted).

The President wanted to pull out of that country, but the deep state (which includes many members of the military-industrial complex) pressured him into staying.

All this talk about Afghanistan becoming a democracy if we stay just a little longer is nonsense.

American soldiers are dying unnecessarily.

Who knows? Maybe the Democratic president in 2021 will have the political power to withdraw all American troops.

Oh dear God not the deep state thing again. :doh

 

[JBG]

If you accuse your enemy of being evil for doing certain things and then you start doing those things, you aren't still somehow on the high road because they started it.

So the good can never win because they have to fight with both hands tied behind their back. Virtuous losers.

 

[Mr Person]

So the good can never win because they have to fight with both hands tied behind their back.

Too often, someone who begins with "so" is about to move the goalposts over to Stupid Land. You just did that. Or maybe it's Dishonest Land. I have less patience to work out which is which each day.

Answer: nope.

Virtuous losers.

Not sinking to an evil enemy's evil level =/= losing.

Sinking to an evil enemy's evil level = losing.

 

[SLC]

I'm not sure what to think about the case. I think the army failed because there was no place to detain the bomb maker apparently. And if he was release he would have likely killed the tribal leader that identified him. And the evidence in the bombmaker's home pointed to him as the maker of the bomb that killed two marines. I think the army failed Major Golsteyn by not having a place to put the bomb maker. I guess I hope Trump pardon's him. He was put in an impossible situation.

 

[Stealers Wheel]

Not his call.

These are the rules our military has established.
These are the rules that a solider who pledged contractually to follow, apparently broke.
The U.S. Army, upon learning of his crime, investigated it and closed the case with no charges.

The solider then saw fit to disclose again, his potential crime, on FOX news, meaning the deniability that the U.S. government had on this, as they kept in relatively safe from prosecution to-date, was blown.
Not only does he bear responsibility for his actions, he has precipitated the re-opening of his own case in making this an world-wide public issue, rather than a private matter for the Army alone to judge.
It is the U.S. Army that has decided to re-open the case, not liberals. Gods **** why do even ****ing post that bull****.

So no. Our military tried to keep this guy from facing penalty, but he's sort of insisted that it happened, and felt the need to go public with it. It's now in the hands of the Army, who was forced to re-open the case due to this public disclosure, and apparently up to David Dennison, AKA Trump, to decide if he wants to oppose our U.S. military, and step on the scales of military justice in letting a self-confessed murderer, go unpunished.

I like your later post attacking "laws" in general. Good one Renae.

This guy figured once the Army dropped the matter and he was out he was out of trouble. Unfortunately for him, the facts he laid out both to the CIA and FOX News did not jive with his statements to his superiors during the original investigation. Now the case has been reopened, and much to the shagrin of the Army, in a very public way. The Army takes a dim view of officers who lie to them. They're funny that way.

But then, Trump knows so much more than the generals. If Trump sticks his nose into this matter, it will be a clear signal to every service person that the chain of command and the UCMJ and the oath they took mean nothing. Good order and discipline will be nothing more than quaint notions.

In short, this is and always has been a military matter. Trump needs to butt out.

 

[Stealers Wheel]

I'm not sure what to think about the case. I think the army failed because there was no place to detain the bomb maker apparently. And if he was release he would have likely killed the tribal leader that identified him. And the evidence in the bombmaker's home pointed to him as the maker of the bomb that killed two marines. I think the army failed Major Golsteyn by not having a place to put the bomb maker. I guess I hope Trump pardon's him. He was put in an impossible situation.

If what you say is true, then a military court martial should bring that out through testimony. And, if it can be demonstrated to the satisfaction of the convening authority that Maj. Mathew L. Golsteyn had no good options other than to do what he did, he will be acquitted by his peers. There will be no need for a pardon.

It appears to me that the major gave false testimony to investigators and may have compelled others to also give false testimony as well.

If he believed his actions were both legal and authorized, why do his statements to the CIA and FOX News not jive with his original statements?

 

[RabidAlpaca]

So the good can never win because they have to fight with both hands tied behind their back. Virtuous losers.

You seem like quite the coward, but speaking as an Afghanistan veteran myself, not summarily murdering people we have in custody is not having our hands tied behind our back. What you're arguing for is that any servicemember should be able to execute any civilian in a war zone, without reason and without trial, completely subverting the military chain of command, code of conduct, and people's right to a trial.

Killing people in combat is one thing, explicitly breaking military law by murdering a civilian you have in custody is completely different and an objective war crime. This guy knows damn well what he did and I hope he goes to prison for a very, very long time. The military does not need lawless murderers in its ranks.

But we won’t genocide the country when we do pull out. Like we shoulda done while we were pulling out of Nam.

Wtf is the matter with you? Do you have no shame or honor whatsoever? We should've murdered every man, woman, and child in Vietnam, both enemies and allies, because we involved ourselves in THEIR civil war and didn't like the outcome? You're a pretty sick person with some anger issues, please stay 100 miles away from a service uniform.

 

[Stealers Wheel]

If he had command authority, it was his call.

And how might we determine if he had command authority to execute the prisoner?

Here's an idea: Let the Army convene a court martial and let that be his defense. If the other officers agree that it was his call to legally execute the prisoner, then they will acquit him.

Of course, if you believe that this matter cannot be justly adjudicated by Maj. Mathew L. Golsteyn's peers, then president Trump would have no choice but to intervene on the behalf of the major.

Unfortunately, if he were to be convicted and subsequently pardoned, it would require that he admit guilt to the crime. That is a stipulation of accepting a pardon.

Think about that for a moment: If he were to admit to violating the UCMJ and avoided punishment via the pardon, how would the rest of the Army look on that? Think about all the lowly grunts who get thrown in the stockade for pretty minor offenses every day. And this guy admits to a capital crime and gets away with it? Because Trump is in his corner?

 

[RabidAlpaca]

And how might we determine if he had command authority to execute the prisoner?
Here's an idea: Let the Army convene a court martial and let that be his defense. If the other officers agree that it was his call to legally execute the prisoner, then they will acquit him.
Of course, if you believe that this matter cannot be justly adjudicated by Maj. Mathew L. Golsteyn's peers, then president Trump would have no choice but to intervene on the behalf of the major.
Unfortunately, if he were to be convicted and subsequently pardoned, it would require that he admit guilt to the crime. That is a stipulation of accepting a pardon.
Think about that for a moment: If he were to admit to violating the UCMJ and avoided punishment via the pardon, how would the rest of the Army look on that? Think about all the lowly grunts who get thrown in the stockade for pretty minor offenses every day. And this guy admits to a capital crime and gets away with it? Because Trump is in his corner?

You're arguing with someone that thinks all arabs are guilty until proven innocent, so it absolutely doesn't matter if it breaks every law in the military code of justice, to him, the murder was justified even if the guy was an innocent person and not a bomb maker. These are the same people that try to talk about the "honor of the military" yet constantly advocate mass murder and lawlessness among them.

Unless we've been in his shoes...

I've been in his shoes and I didn't murder any captives because I'm not an animal and was an honorable soldier. It is explicitly against UCMJ and a few dozen international laws to murder your captives. You can't brush this off as "I've never been in his shoes". Totally irrelevant. You can condemn murder without having committed it yourself.

Evidence that it was an unlawful order?

Murdering an unarmed detainee is always an unlawful order. You don't have a shred of honor to your name, don't try to pull the military down into the cowardice mud you bask in.

No, I'm not fine with the Taliban murdering US soldiers, but the Taliban does it anyway - has done it in the past, is doing it right now, and will continue to do it ...
and they're not even shy about showing us how they kill enemy combatants and civilians.

And that's why we should let our soldiers murder any civilian they want on a whim?

 

[apdst]

And how might we determine if he had command authority to execute the prisoner?

Here's an idea: Let the Army convene a court martial and let that be his defense. If the other officers agree that it was his call to legally execute the prisoner, then they will acquit him.

Of course, if you believe that this matter cannot be justly adjudicated by Maj. Mathew L. Golsteyn's peers, then president Trump would have no choice but to intervene on the behalf of the major.

Unfortunately, if he were to be convicted and subsequently pardoned, it would require that he admit guilt to the crime. That is a stipulation of accepting a pardon.

Think about that for a moment: If he were to admit to violating the UCMJ and avoided punishment via the pardon, how would the rest of the Army look on that? Think about all the lowly grunts who get thrown in the stockade for pretty minor offenses every day. And this guy admits to a capital crime and gets away with it? Because Trump is in his corner?

He's the commander of the local element.

 

[Stealers Wheel]

He's the commander of the local element.

Yeah, so? You write as though you are under the impression that local commanders are free to do whatever they wish because of something you know as "command decision." Nothing could be further from the truth.

Every recruit and officer candidate has it drummed into their head before they graduate boot camp or OCS what a "lawful order" is and what it means to disobey an unlawful order. If you had served you would know that.

I'm a firm believer that this officer is entitled to be assumed innocent until found guilty, but I also believe his subsequent behavior and public statements requires the Army to reopen this case and clear matters up.

I also believe that president Trump needs to butt out unless and until his wisdom in this matter is needed. That won't be at least until the court martial has concluded their business. Right now it is an Army matter and should be treated as such.

 

[braindrain]

This guy figured once the Army dropped the matter and he was out he was out of trouble. Unfortunately for him, the facts he laid out both to the CIA and FOX News did not jive with his statements to his superiors during the original investigation. Now the case has been reopened, and much to the shagrin of the Army, in a very public way. The Army takes a dim view of officers who lie to them. They're funny that way.

But then, Trump knows so much more than the generals. If Trump sticks his nose into this matter, it will be a clear signal to every service person that the chain of command and the UCMJ and the oath they took mean nothing. Good order and discipline will be nothing more than quaint notions.

In short, this is and always has been a military matter. Trump needs to butt out.

While I agree completly that Trump needs to butt out, your hyperbole that good order and discipline will go away is just over the top nonsense.

 

[Stealers Wheel]

While I agree completly that Trump needs to butt out, your hyperbole that good order and discipline will go away is just over the top nonsense.

I'm just saying that if Trump intervenes in this matter, either before or after the court martial, it will make a mockery of military justice.

 

[JBG]

Too often, someone who begins with "so" is about to move the goalposts over to Stupid Land. You just did that. Or maybe it's Dishonest Land. I have less patience to work out which is which each day.

Answer: nope.

Not sinking to an evil enemy's evil level =/= losing. Sinking to an evil enemy's evil level = losing.

I am generally a bit to your left, but I consider your remark little more than an ad hominem attack. If the enemy observes no rules at all (what rules did the September 11 planners observe after all) can we fight being bound by Marquis of Queensbury rules? Links to those rules: (Link 1, Marquis of Queensbury rules) and (Link 2, ‘Under Queensberry Rules, So to Speak’: Some Versions of a Metaphor). Excerpt from Link 2, from Teddy Roosevelt, then governor of New York:

The growth of peacefulness between nations, however, has been confined strictly to those that are civilized. It can only come when both parties to a possible quarrel feel the same spirit. With a barbarous nation peace is the exceptional condition. On the border between civilization and barbarism war is generally normal because it must be under the conditions of barbarism.