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Turkey fired on U.S. special forces in Syria. It's absurd that it still has U.S. nukes.

TU Curmudgeon

B.A. (Sarc), LLb. (Lex Sarcasus), PhD (Sarc.)
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From NBC News (Editorial Side)

Turkey fired on U.S. special forces in Syria. It's absurd that it still has U.S. nukes.


Despite years of spiraling relations with Turkey, the United States has myopically continued to store an estimated 50 nuclear bombs in the country. Even now, after Turkey launched a devastating offensive on Oct. 9 against America’s Kurdish allies in Syria, disrupting the Pentagon’s war against ISIS and reportedly firing on U.S. troops that hadn’t yet withdrawn, they’re still there.

Remarkably, according to The New York Times, the State and Energy Departments are merely reviewing contingency plans at this point to remove the nukes from Turkey.While the recent developments in Syria represent a new nadir in U.S.-Turkey relations, the risks of storing them there have long been obvious — notably when their security was put at risk in 2016 during an attempted coup.

The weapons in question are B61 tactical nukes, old-school gravity bombs designed to be dropped from short-range fighters jets onto military bases and battlefield troop concentrations. They are stored in underground vaults on Turkey’s Incirlik Air Base in the southern Turkish city of Adana. As such, they could be seized by a hostile Turkey or attacked by other actors in an increasingly unstable region. They should be removed ASAP.

The presence of the B61s in Turkey stems from a Cold War policy under which the United States transferred nuclear weapons to NATO allies Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Turkey. The move showed collective responsibility and solidarity in NATO nuclear deterrence against the Soviet Union. It also conveyed the political message that these countries they didn't need to developed their own nukes. The United States could always give these countries’ air forces access to the weapons if necessary.

COMMENT:-

The real question to be asked is NOT "Why does the US still have nuclear weapons in Turkey?" but rather "How is the US (with fewer than 2,000 troops [mostly {80+%} USAF aircrew and flight support staff]) going to get the nuclear weapons OUT of Turkey if the Turks (around 355,200 active [and around 378,700 reserve] troops) decide that they want to take them for themselves?".

Now isn't THAT a thought to make your blood chill slightly?
 
This places "military intelligence" in a new light. Since it now 100% certain that Turkey will do what Turkey feels like doing - including occupying the territory of a neighboring country using military force (said to be kind of bad, yet no reason for a US military response, when Russia does so) then why is Turkey still in NATO or considered to be a "trusted" US ally?
 
This places "military intelligence" in a new light. Since it now 100% certain that Turkey will do what Turkey feels like doing - including occupying the territory of a neighboring country using military force (said to be kind of bad, yet no reason for a US military response, when Russia does so) then why is Turkey still in NATO or considered to be a "trusted" US ally?


Didn’t the US bombing of logistic materiel (ours,) to keep it out of an ally’s reach put the trust thing to bed?
 
This places "military intelligence" in a new light. Since it now 100% certain that Turkey will do what Turkey feels like doing - including occupying the territory of a neighboring country using military force (said to be kind of bad, yet no reason for a US military response, when Russia does so) then why is Turkey still in NATO or considered to be a "trusted" US ally?

I think because it's close enough to Russia that we can put nukes there to strike at Russia should it be necessary.
 
Didn’t the US bombing of logistic materiel (ours,) to keep it out of an ally’s reach put the trust thing to bed?

Not "officially" since we still seem to be pretending that a "diplomatic response" will make it all as good as it ever was. So far, our congress has responded by making quite a bit of noise in the press and passing "non-binding resolutions" - mostly aimed at holding Trump responsible for the actions of Turkey rather than Turkey.
 
I think because it's close enough to Russia that we can put nukes there to strike at Russia should it be necessary.

Bombs are useful only when delivered by aircraft which tend to be quite mobile (although airbases are not). The US does not lack other places (close to Russia) to put such nuclear capable airbases, especially with the expansion of NATO nations.
 
Bombs are useful only when delivered by aircraft which tend to be quite mobile (although airbases are not). The US does not lack other places (close to Russia) to put such nuclear capable airbases, especially with the expansion of NATO nations.

Now, I think that is true. I think during like the Cold War and such we needed Turkey as a strike platform. But yes, I think mostly they're not needed any longer. But there's maybe some other geo-political aspects I am not aware of that compels us to like Turkey's boots.
 
Now, I think that is true. I think during like the Cold War and such we needed Turkey as a strike platform. But yes, I think mostly they're not needed any longer. But there's maybe some other geo-political aspects I am not aware of that compels us to like Turkey's boots.

When (no longer if) we have to move US military personnel out of reach of attacking Turkish forces, their status as a trusted US ally and NATO member should be revoked. Using the threat of "severe" wrist slap economic sanctions did not work to prevent Turkey from telling the US to get out (and stay out?) of their way as they decided to impose their military control over territory in Syria and deciding who could (and could not) continue to live or work in it without death threats.
 
Now, I think that is true. I think during like the Cold War and such we needed Turkey as a strike platform. But yes, I think mostly they're not needed any longer. But there's maybe some other geo-political aspects I am not aware of that compels us to like Turkey's boots.

The geographical significance of Turkey is still high, it sits at the crossroads of Europe and Asia, as significant a position now as it was two thousand years ago. While it's true that missiles and strategic bombers now have the range to make close bases unnecessary, there are other forms of power projection which require more direct involvement, and the proximity of the Anatolian region means that local forces can mount a presence not only in Turkey but also the Black Sea, the Bosporus staight, the Mediterranean and Aegean Seas, Cyrpus, the Levant and Mesopotamia, and the Caucasus.
 
This places "military intelligence" in a new light. Since it now 100% certain that Turkey will do what Turkey feels like doing - including occupying the territory of a neighboring country using military force (said to be kind of bad, yet no reason for a US military response, when Russia does so) then why is Turkey still in NATO or considered to be a "trusted" US ally?

The Turks will be quite content to assist Mr. al-Assad track down and bring to justice the people who are in rebellion against the legal government of Syria and will also be quite content to withdraw from Syria (where they are at the request of the legal government of Syria [and a legal government that is recognized as such by the government of the United States of America and almost 200 other countries]) in order that the legal government of Syria can "restore peace and domestic law" by tracking down, bringing to trial, and dealing with as provided for by the laws of Syria those people who have engaged in illegal violence and killing aimed at overthrowing the legal government of Syria.

And if you don't think that that will be (in essence) what the official position of the Turks, Russians, and Syrians is then you simply aren't paying attention.
 
The Turks will be quite content to assist Mr. al-Assad track down and bring to justice the people who are in rebellion against the legal government of Syria and will also be quite content to withdraw from Syria (where they are at the request of the legal government of Syria [and a legal government that is recognized as such by the government of the United States of America and almost 200 other countries]) in order that the legal government of Syria can "restore peace and domestic law" by tracking down, bringing to trial, and dealing with as provided for by the laws of Syria those people who have engaged in illegal violence and killing aimed at overthrowing the legal government of Syria.

And if you don't think that that will be (in essence) what the official position of the Turks, Russians, and Syrians is then you simply aren't paying attention.

Maybe, but that assumes that the Turks end game is not to have their own state of which includes part of Syria.
 
The Turks will be quite content to assist Mr. al-Assad track down and bring to justice the people who are in rebellion against the legal government of Syria and will also be quite content to withdraw from Syria (where they are at the request of the legal government of Syria [and a legal government that is recognized as such by the government of the United States of America and almost 200 other countries]) in order that the legal government of Syria can "restore peace and domestic law" by tracking down, bringing to trial, and dealing with as provided for by the laws of Syria those people who have engaged in illegal violence and killing aimed at overthrowing the legal government of Syria.

And if you don't think that that will be (in essence) what the official position of the Turks, Russians, and Syrians is then you simply aren't paying attention.

Perhaps the “legal government of Syria” shouldn’t have started murdering anyone who didn’t like the idea of decades more of totalitarian rule if it didn’t want people to rise up against it.

The opinion of brutal thugs like Putin and Erdogan is irrelevant.
 
Maybe, but that assumes that the Turks end game is not to have their own state of which includes part of Syria.

You do realize that the Turks already do have their own state, don't you? The Turks have been quite able to "take part of Syria" (at least) at any time after 1979 (when the US government put Syria on the American list of "State Sponsors of Terrorism") and, until the US government started supporting the Kurds, the US government would have been quite happy to see that happen.
 
Perhaps the “legal government of Syria” shouldn’t have started murdering anyone who didn’t like the idea of decades more of totalitarian rule if it didn’t want people to rise up against it.

I quite agree, but what does that have to do with what (in essence) the official position of the Turks, Russians, and Syrians is going to be.

The opinion of brutal thugs like Putin and Erdogan is irrelevant.

Possibly to you, but not to Mr. Trump.
 
You do realize that the Turks already do have their own state, don't you? The Turks have been quite able to "take part of Syria" (at least) at any time after 1979 (when the US government put Syria on the American list of "State Sponsors of Terrorism") and, until the US government started supporting the Kurds, the US government would have been quite happy to see that happen.

I screwed up and typed Turks instead of Kurds.
 
I quite agree, but what does that have to do with what (in essence) the official position of the Turks, Russians, and Syrians is going to be.



Possibly to you, but not to Mr. Trump.

Donald Trump’s fawning over dictators is not relevant to the reality of the situation.

The Russians, Turks and Syrians are all run by brutal dictators who habitually invent fairy tales about their motives and actions. Their excuses are laughable
 
From NBC News (Editorial Side)

Turkey fired on U.S. special forces in Syria. It's absurd that it still has U.S. nukes.


Despite years of spiraling relations with Turkey, the United States has myopically continued to store an estimated 50 nuclear bombs in the country. Even now, after Turkey launched a devastating offensive on Oct. 9 against America’s Kurdish allies in Syria, disrupting the Pentagon’s war against ISIS and reportedly firing on U.S. troops that hadn’t yet withdrawn, they’re still there.

Remarkably, according to The New York Times, the State and Energy Departments are merely reviewing contingency plans at this point to remove the nukes from Turkey.While the recent developments in Syria represent a new nadir in U.S.-Turkey relations, the risks of storing them there have long been obvious — notably when their security was put at risk in 2016 during an attempted coup.

The weapons in question are B61 tactical nukes, old-school gravity bombs designed to be dropped from short-range fighters jets onto military bases and battlefield troop concentrations. They are stored in underground vaults on Turkey’s Incirlik Air Base in the southern Turkish city of Adana. As such, they could be seized by a hostile Turkey or attacked by other actors in an increasingly unstable region. They should be removed ASAP.

The presence of the B61s in Turkey stems from a Cold War policy under which the United States transferred nuclear weapons to NATO allies Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Turkey. The move showed collective responsibility and solidarity in NATO nuclear deterrence against the Soviet Union. It also conveyed the political message that these countries they didn't need to developed their own nukes. The United States could always give these countries’ air forces access to the weapons if necessary.

COMMENT:-

The real question to be asked is NOT "Why does the US still have nuclear weapons in Turkey?" but rather "How is the US (with fewer than 2,000 troops [mostly {80+%} USAF aircrew and flight support staff]) going to get the nuclear weapons OUT of Turkey if the Turks (around 355,200 active [and around 378,700 reserve] troops) decide that they want to take them for themselves?".

Now isn't THAT a thought to make your blood chill slightly?

It sounds like Trump needs to get our troops out of there immediately.
 
I screwed up and typed Turks instead of Kurds.

That's OK. Some people don't know the difference.

However


The Turks have been quite able to "take part of Syria" (at least) at any time after 1979 (when the US government put Syria on the American list of "State Sponsors of Terrorism") and, until the US government started supporting the Kurds, the US government would have been quite happy to see that happen.

remains as true as before since the US government regarded BOTH the Kurds and the Syrians as "terrorists".
 
It sounds like Trump needs to get our troops out of there immediately.

You want to hand ownership of nuclear weapons to a dictator?
 
Donald Trump’s fawning over dictators is not relevant to the reality of the situation.

Sorry, but I consider that any "fawning over dictators" that is done by "the leader of the free world" to be VERY relevant to the reality of the situation.

The Russians, Turks and Syrians are all run by brutal dictators who habitually invent fairy tales about their motives and actions. Their excuses are laughable

While that is quite possibly true, what does it have to do with what (in essence) the OFFICIAL position of the Turks, Russians, and Syrians is going to be? or that that OFFICIAL position is highly likely (in essence) to be


The Turks will be quite content to assist Mr. al-Assad track down and bring to justice the people who are in rebellion against the legal government of Syria and will also be quite content to withdraw from Syria (where they are at the request of the legal government of Syria [and a legal government that is recognized as such by the government of the United States of America and almost 200 other countries]) in order that the legal government of Syria can "restore peace and domestic law" by tracking down, bringing to trial, and dealing with as provided for by the laws of Syria those people who have engaged in illegal violence and killing aimed at overthrowing the legal government of Syria.

(an OFFICIAL position that the government of the United States of America [as it is currently constituted and headed] is quite likely to acquiesce to)?
 
The Turks will be quite content to assist Mr. al-Assad track down and bring to justice the people who are in rebellion against the legal government of Syria and will also be quite content to withdraw from Syria (where they are at the request of the legal government of Syria [and a legal government that is recognized as such by the government of the United States of America and almost 200 other countries]) in order that the legal government of Syria can "restore peace and domestic law" by tracking down, bringing to trial, and dealing with as provided for by the laws of Syria those people who have engaged in illegal violence and killing aimed at overthrowing the legal government of Syria.

And if you don't think that that will be (in essence) what the official position of the Turks, Russians, and Syrians is then you simply aren't paying attention.

Assad does not even qualify for puppet status at this point. He is a figurehead. Lets see, is Putin leaving if Assad asks him? Doubt it.
 
You want to hand ownership of nuclear weapons to a dictator?

If the Turks refuse to allow them to be removed from Turkey, exactly what would you propose the US government do about it?

NOTE #1 - I am NOT saying that the Turks HAVE refused to allow them to be removed, so demands for a link showing that the Turks HAVE refused to allow them to be removed will be treated as as silly and irrelevant as they are.

NOTE #2 - I am NOT saying that the Turks WILL refuse to allow them to be removed, what I am asking for is what we in the trade call a "contingency plan" IN THE (unlikelyish) EVENT THAT the Turks do refuse to allow them to be removed, so demands for a link showing that the Turks HAVE or HAVE EVEN INDICATED PUBLICLY that they will not allow the nuclear weapons to be removed will be treated as as silly and irrelevant as they are.
 
I think because it's close enough to Russia that we can put nukes there to strike at Russia should it be necessary.

I suspect this may be the real reason Trump gave in to Erdogan. Putin is going to get American nukes off his doorstep. That's huge.

And it was easy as taking candy from a baby.
 
Assad does not even qualify for puppet status at this point. He is a figurehead. Lets see, is Putin leaving if Assad asks him? Doubt it.

True, but how does that mean that the OFFICIAL position of the Turks, Russians, and Syrians is not going to be essentially the one I set out (or that the US government will NOT do anything but (effectively) acquiesce to that OFFICIAL position)?
 
From NBC News (Editorial Side)

Turkey fired on U.S. special forces in Syria. It's absurd that it still has U.S. nukes.


Despite years of spiraling relations with Turkey, the United States has myopically continued to store an estimated 50 nuclear bombs in the country. Even now, after Turkey launched a devastating offensive on Oct. 9 against America’s Kurdish allies in Syria, disrupting the Pentagon’s war against ISIS and reportedly firing on U.S. troops that hadn’t yet withdrawn, they’re still there.

Remarkably, according to The New York Times, the State and Energy Departments are merely reviewing contingency plans at this point to remove the nukes from Turkey.While the recent developments in Syria represent a new nadir in U.S.-Turkey relations, the risks of storing them there have long been obvious — notably when their security was put at risk in 2016 during an attempted coup.

The weapons in question are B61 tactical nukes, old-school gravity bombs designed to be dropped from short-range fighters jets onto military bases and battlefield troop concentrations. They are stored in underground vaults on Turkey’s Incirlik Air Base in the southern Turkish city of Adana. As such, they could be seized by a hostile Turkey or attacked by other actors in an increasingly unstable region. They should be removed ASAP.

The presence of the B61s in Turkey stems from a Cold War policy under which the United States transferred nuclear weapons to NATO allies Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Turkey. The move showed collective responsibility and solidarity in NATO nuclear deterrence against the Soviet Union. It also conveyed the political message that these countries they didn't need to developed their own nukes. The United States could always give these countries’ air forces access to the weapons if necessary.

COMMENT:-

The real question to be asked is NOT "Why does the US still have nuclear weapons in Turkey?" but rather "How is the US (with fewer than 2,000 troops [mostly {80+%} USAF aircrew and flight support staff]) going to get the nuclear weapons OUT of Turkey if the Turks (around 355,200 active [and around 378,700 reserve] troops) decide that they want to take them for themselves?".

Now isn't THAT a thought to make your blood chill slightly?

Ok, so let's hypothesize for a second. Let's say the Turkish army shows up, breaks the locks and takes the bombs.

So what?

The Turkish military is somewhat competent, they have the ability to safeguard the bombs against theft, and who would they use the bombs against and to what end? the use of a nuclear weapon In an act of aggression would make Turkey in an international pariah. and every country in Europe is affiliated with either NATO or Russia, who have the full capacity to retaliate with nuclear weapons. plus 50 B-61 bombs is, on the grand scheme of things, very small. they could maybe destroy ten cities pretty thoroughly and then they'll be wiped out. The actual capability of possessing those bombs is not great.
 
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