Trump to ban Saudi Oil imports

[Nilly]

If we remove government subsides from green energy then I have no objection to windmills or solar panels replacing oil

No such thing as an unsubsidized energy source. All forms are subsidized in one way or another.

 

[Mac77]

No such thing as an unsubsidized energy source. All forms are subsidized in one way or another.

No direct subsides to energy companies such as tax breaks or paynents to consumers

Right now green energy is heavily subsidized and that should stop

 

[humbolt]

Greetings, humbolt. :2wave:

They were a friend for many years which enabled us to enjoy "favored nation status," which gave our country benefits that no other country had. I would not like to see what happens if that should end.

I don't think our friendship is at stake here. The oil producers in and around the ME need money, so cutting production is a way to increase price. The market will respond, and offer a moderating influence by increasing supply. That's a reality the oil producers in the ME have to deal with much as we will likely have to deal with somewhat higher fuel prices. We probably won't have to endure $5/gal gas prices, but $2/gallon is likely gone for now.

 

[Lord of Planar]

No such thing as an unsubsidized energy source. All forms are subsidized in one way or another.

Only when you use the liberal dictionary for the word "subsidy."

The left loves to take words with a distinct meaning, and add new meaning to suit their agenda.

 

[Lord of Planar]

I don't think our friendship is at stake here. The oil producers in and around the ME need money, so cutting production is a way to increase price. The market will respond, and offer a moderating influence by increasing supply. That's a reality the oil producers in the ME have to deal with much as we will likely have to deal with somewhat higher fuel prices. We probably won't have to endure $5/gal gas prices, but $2/gallon is likely gone for now.

I'm surprised we still get as low as $2.

 

[JasperL]

Only when you use the liberal dictionary for the word "subsidy."

The left loves to take words with a distinct meaning, and add new meaning to suit their agenda.

"The Left" recognizes that subsidies of a given activity are often not direct, but are just as valuable as direct subsidies. It's called recognizing reality, and substance over form.

 

[Lord of Planar]

"The Left" recognizes that subsidies of a given activity are often not direct, but are just as valuable as direct subsidies. It's called recognizing reality, and substance over form.

Yes, they like to dumb-down their listeners by using the wrong words.

Words have meaning, but the indoctrinated and pundits don't seem to care.

I agree, other forms of financial relief are as valuable as a subsidy. But to call it a subsidy means one of two things. You are either ignorant, or lying.

 

[JasperL]

Yes, they like to dumb-down their listeners by using the wrong words.

Words have meaning, but the indoctrinated and pundits don't seem to care.

I agree, other forms of financial relief are as valuable as a subsidy. But to call it a subsidy means one of two things. You are either ignorant, or lying.

I'm not sure what "it" is that by calling a subsidy I'm "lying" or "ignorant" about so here's an example. When China allows coal burning plants to offload the costs of pollution onto a billion people, killing 100s of thousands from breathing problems, the rest breathing filthy air incurring higher medical costs and more, that is a subsidy of coal energy. Parties other than the coal burning company are bearing a significant share of the costs of that activity. It's as much of a subsidy as if the population of affected areas cut them a check every year. The population is incurring costs and the coal plant is avoiding them. There is a shift of wealth from the population to coal plants (or those who pay a below full cost price for coal energy).

#2. If instead of preventing or properly disposing of toxic waste, you drive up to my property line and dump it, reducing the value of that property by $1 million, that's a $1 million subsidy of your plant by me, but no cash changed hands. I've born the cost of your production and am therefore subsidizing your production by the costs I absorb. #3. Same thing if you dump the waste on your property but it leaks into the water table and makes my well water supply toxic and therefore unusable. The cost of me obtaining alternative water is a subsidy by me of that plant. Etc...............

If not a subsidy, what do you call it?

 

[Lord of Planar]

I'm not sure what "it" is that by calling a subsidy I'm "lying" or "ignorant" about so here's an example. When China allows coal burning plants to offload the costs of pollution onto a billion people, killing 100s of thousands from breathing problems, the rest breathing filthy air incurring higher medical costs and more, that is a subsidy of coal energy. Parties other than the coal burning company are bearing a significant share of the costs of that activity. It's as much of a subsidy as if the population of affected areas cut them a check every year. The population is incurring costs and the coal plant is avoiding them. There is a shift of wealth from the population to coal plants (or those who pay a below full cost price for coal energy).

#2. If instead of preventing or properly disposing of toxic waste, you drive up to my property line and dump it, reducing the value of that property by $1 million, that's a $1 million subsidy of your plant by me, but no cash changed hands. I've born the cost of your production and am therefore subsidizing your production by the costs I absorb. #3. Same thing if you dump the waste on your property but it leaks into the water table and makes my well water supply toxic and therefore unusable. The cost of me obtaining alternative water is a subsidy by me of that plant. Etc...............

If not a subsidy, what do you call it?

Ever look up the dictionary meaning?

Definition of subsidy
plural subsidies

: a grant or gift of money: as
a : a sum of money formerly granted by the British Parliament to the crown and raised by special taxation
b : money granted by one state to another
c : a grant by a government to a private person or company to assist an enterprise deemed advantageous to the public
​

Subsidy | Definition of Subsidy by Merriam-Webster

Again, tax breaks and other cost offsets can be every bit as valuable, or more, than a subsidy.

However, words have specific meanings!

To convince people that other financial practices are subsidies is only dumbing down society. The left loves dumbing down their voters. They do this with so many other words too.

Do you approve of dumbing society down?

 

[Nilly]

Only when you use the liberal dictionary for the word "subsidy."

The left loves to take words with a distinct meaning, and add new meaning to suit their agenda.

Do you consider a tax break a subsidy?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_subsidies

Energy subsidies are measures that keep prices for consumers below market levels or for producers above market levels, or reduce costs for consumers and producers.[1] Energy subsidies may be direct cash transfers to producers, consumers, or related bodies, as well as indirect support mechanisms, such as tax exemptions and rebates, price controls, trade restrictions, and limits on market access. They may also include energy conservation subsidies.[2] The development of today's major modern energy industries have all relied on substantial subsidy support.

 

[JasperL]

Ever look up the dictionary meaning?

Definition of subsidy
plural subsidies

: a grant or gift of money: as
a : a sum of money formerly granted by the British Parliament to the crown and raised by special taxation
b : money granted by one state to another
c : a grant by a government to a private person or company to assist an enterprise deemed advantageous to the public
​

Subsidy | Definition of Subsidy by Merriam-Webster

That's not the only definition: Subsidy Definition | Investopedia

What is a 'Subsidy'

A subsidy is a benefit given by the government to groups or individuals, usually in the form of a cash payment or a tax reduction. The subsidy is typically given to remove some type of burden, and it is often considered to be in the overall interest of the public.

BREAKING DOWN 'Subsidy'
Often considered a form of financial aid, a subsidy is a payment, provided directly or indirectly, that provides a concession to the receiving individual or business entity. Subsidies are generally seen as privileges, as they lessen an associated burden that was previously levied against the receiver or promote a particular action by providing financial support.

Again, tax breaks and other cost offsets can be every bit as valuable, or more, than a subsidy.

However, words have specific meanings!

To convince people that other financial practices are subsidies is only dumbing down society. The left loves dumbing down their voters. They do this with so many other words too.

Do you approve of dumbing society down?

It's not "dumbing down society" to point out that some policies have an identical effect as a direct subsidy, and to call things with an identical effect by the same term. That is in fact informing society by drawing appropriate equivalencies between different policy choices.

If I come to you and say, "LoP - I'm the Government and you can have a grant of $100, or I'll cut your tax bill by $100" you don't care which one - your wealth goes up by $100 either way. Government doesn't care - they're either short revenues by $100 or spend $100, with the same effect on the bottom line. Taxpayers don't care - government has to cut spending by $100 in both cases or raise taxes by $100 to cover your tax break or grant.

So you're saying I'm dumbing down the public when I call something with an IDENTICAL effect by the same word. Just the opposite is true, actually. The public is FAR dumber when propagandists convince them that a tax break is somehow different than a direct subsidy of cash.

 

[humbolt]

I'm surprised we still get as low as $2.

It's going up very soon. We're already at a point at which we can start producing profitably again in the shale fields.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Do you consider a tax break a subsidy?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_subsidies

That's not the only definition: Subsidy Definition | Investopedia

What is a 'Subsidy'

Online references are not official, especially these editable public or group "Pedias.". Just because someone chooses to call ity a subsidy, does not make it correct.

I see I found the crowd "Oh... Its true because I read it on the internet."

Your choice...

People judge intelligence of others by factors like this.

 

[JasperL]

Online references are not official, especially these editable public or group "Pedias.". Just because someone chooses to call ity a subsidy, does not make it correct.

I see I found the crowd "Oh... Its true because I read it on the internet."

Well, not really. You found the "A tax incentive and a cash grant are both taxpayer subsidies, and here's an example that demonstrates exactly why that is, why informed people make no distinction between them because the results to everyone involved are identical, and using the same word to describe identical outcomes is appropriate" crowd.

Your choice...

People judge intelligence of others by factors like this.

Fine, let them judge my intelligence. Not just on the link but to the explanation, which you didn't address because you cannot except to say, "but Websters!!" :roll:

Here's a real world example. The state of Indiana offered Carrier Corp. $7 million in taxpayer "subsidies" to keep roughly 700 jobs in Indiana. As it happens, the "subsidies" are in the form of special tax breaks unique to Carrier. But whether the subsidies were in the form of special tax breaks OR cash grants totalling $7 million over the same period makes absolutely no difference to anyone. Not to the company - they are indifferent between $7 million in tax savings or $7 million in cash grants - it's math. Not to investors. Not to the state of Indiana. Not to taxpayers.

So in fact calling the deal a taxpayer subsidy is informative, regardless of the form, because the substance is the same in either case. What would be in fact pretty stupid is insisting we call a cash grant a "subsidy" and calling special tax breaks a "not-subsidy-but-tax-break-with-an-identical-effect-as-a-subsidy." Taxpayers are in fact coughing up $7 million in subsidies to keep 700 jobs. Whether that is a good deal or not is up to them - I'd take it. But no one should pretend that it's not a taxpayer handout/subsidy to a Fortune 500 company to save 700 jobs - it is.

 

[Lord of Planar]

My God. You miss the point.

You can call something whatever you want. When incorrect, it is showing your ignorance. Many people in professional jobs are ignorant as well.

Isn't it the smart thing to challenge misrepresentations of the truth?

Many have decided to use the word "subsidy" as a catch all word for various benefits. That doesn't make it right.

Now what gets me even more, is when the truth is pointed out, people like you who choose to ignore facts!

The Merriam-Webster dictionary is one of the few valid online sources you will find. It does not include tax breaks in the definition of subsidy.

Words have meaning!

I see you are another, in favor of dumbing down society, instead of wishing to see the knowledge of society grow.

 

[Sietske22]

How does trump plan on banning CITGO, Shell, Exxon-Mobil, BP, and all the other gasoline companies in the USA from using Saudi oil?

 

[Lord of Planar]

Though Merriam-Webster is my go-to for definitions, I like the Cambridge definition:

the act of making something simpler and easier for people to understand, especially in order to make it more popular:
​

dumbing-down Definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

 

[calamity]

So if Trump really tells the Sauds to stick it, will it mean much to the US economy?

Trump: We Are Banning Saudi Oil From America – InvestmentWatch

Considering the recent announcement of a huge oil deposit in Texas, probably not:



https://www.usgs.gov/news/usgs-estimates-20-billion-barrels-oil-texas-wolfcamp-shale-formation

Might be a good idea. I hate Saudi Arabia.

 

[Lord of Planar]

How does trump plan on banning CITGO, Shell, Exxon-Mobil, BP, and all the other gasoline companies in the USA from using Saudi oil?

I don't know. The force of law can be used, but it doesn't really matter since it is a world commodity. It's a political move rather than anything with any real effect, unless he can get all other large buyers of oil to do the same thing.

 

[lurchadams]

Sweet! Get ready for $5/gallon gas.

He'd get slaughtered. We're too cheap to pay more for gas. Just another broken promise to be broken.

 

[lurchadams]

"Banning" Saudi oil would require a short adjustment phase and would not do too much to prices in the middle term. It could have a significant impact on the architecture of security in the region.

You've got to be kidding. Whenever anyone sneezes at an oil refinery and production decreases one iota, I end up paying 50 cents more per gallon at the pump. Oil market prices are really f'ing sensitive.

 

[Sietske22]

I don't know. The force of law can be used, but it doesn't really matter since it is a world commodity. It's a political move rather than anything with any real effect, unless he can get all other large buyers of oil to do the same thing.

I could see all or many of the big gasoline and fuel oil suppliers in the USA giving trump a big "**** you, the USA isn't Socialist" response to any such demand.

 

[Lord of Planar]

He'd get slaughtered. We're too cheap to pay more for gas. Just another broken promise to be broken.

Did you expect differently?

All politicians lie to the public. Why single him out? What about the lies the democrats propagate?

 

[lurchadams]

Banning saudi oil would be unwise which is why I do not think trump will do it

But greatly increasing US oil production will naturally reduce Saudi oil imports

You think someone can turn a dial and national oil production can increase? You mean drill for more oil and build more refineries, right?

 

[lurchadams]

The US imports only about 11% of the oil supply from the Saudi's.

The US and other countries crushed the Saudi's a few years ago.

The Saudi's and other Opec countries are not the biggest kids on the block anymore

Then why don't we get the f out of there?