Trump Proposes Eliminating Income Taxes For People Earning Less Than $150k/year.

[devildavid]

Gold IS money.

LOL What nonsense.

True, but they have purchasing power. This is where your ignorance really shines - - you are completely ignorant of purchasing power, and that's why your outlook on money is so absurd.

Physical gold has value (purchasing power) everywhere on the planet. Your (funny money) fiat Federal Reserve Notes do NOT. Of course, you are not at a level where you could possibly understand this - I'm only pointing it out for the people who can.

Gold has purchasing power everywhere. The U.S. dollar does not.

We agree somewhat here. I don't think Trump's lower tariffs would be enough to offset the lost funding from taxes on folks who make less than $150k/year. Taxes would need to be hiked on other people, but that would be bad.

Gold has no purchasing power. It must be converted into something with purchasing power accepted by the country it is used in. It only can be converted into accepted currency which has the actual purchasing power. All currencies have the same ability as gold to be converted into purchasing power in other currencies. This all depends on what is valued and where it is valued. Nothing is universal or has a universally accepted value that is the same no matter what market you are engaged in. And no one even uses physical gold. It is all on paper or on electronic records now. No one lugs physical gold around to make transactions with it.

 

[SkyChief]

Gold has no purchasing power.

Of course it does.

You obviously don't even understand what the term purchasing power means. If you did, then you would not make such an absurd statement.

Ot must be converted into something with purchasing power accepted by the country it is used in.

True, but it still has purchasing power.

I can give you a list of countries that will NOT accept U.S Dollars - - even FOR conversion to the local currency. They will, however accept gold. Because gold has purchasing power.

It only can be converted into accepted currency which has the actual purchasing power.

Bullshit. You have no idea what you're talking about.

. . . No one lugs physical gold around to make transactions with it.

Oh God . . . the stupid . . . . it hurts!

 

[devildavid]

Of course it does.

You obviously don't even understand what the term purchasing power means. If you did, then you would not make such an absurd statement.



True, but it still has purchasing power.

I can give you alis of countries that will not accept U.S Dollars - - even FOR conversion. They would, however accept gold.



Bullshit. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Gold has no purchasing power. No one takes gold as a payment. They take its converted value in accepted currency as a payment. You can’t buy anything in any market directly with physical gold. It cannot directly purchase anything at all.

 

[JohnfrmClevelan]

Can we get off of the gold thing already? It's not relevant to the thread, and the ONLY reason it came up was because SkyChief doesn't understand where money comes from.

 

[devildavid]

Can we get off of the gold thing already? It's not relevant to the thread, and the ONLY reason it came up was because SkyChief doesn't understand where money comes from.

Libertarians have a gold fetish. It is part of their libertarian fantasy world which only exists in their minds and in discussions on the internet. They can’t help themselves. It is a strange cult religion they have going that has no chance of ever working in the real world because it has no understanding of human behavior at all.

 

[SkyChief]

Gold has no purchasing power.

FALSE gold has purchasing power because it can be used to buy goods and services anywhere in the world. Your fiat U.S. Dollars cannot. Some countries would laugh at you for trying to buy goods with your worthless U.S. dollars. ( and I would laugh along with them.)

No one takes gold as a payment.

FALSE. I bought a Harley Davidson with three American gold eagles . (. . +a few American silver eagles)

They take its converted value in accepted currency as a payment. You can’t buy anything in any market directly with physical gold. It cannot directly purchase anything at all.

FALSE. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[devildavid]

FALSE gold has purchasing power because it can be used to buy goods and services anywhere in the world. Your fiat U.S. Dollars cannot. Some countries would laugh at you for trying to buy goods with your worthless U.S. dollars. ( and I would laugh along with them.)

FALSE. I bought a Harley Davidson with three American gold eagles . (. . +a few American silver eagles)

FALSE. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

Gold has no purchasing power. You cannot use gold without converting it to whatever value it has in the currency of the market you are converting it in. You can’t just buy with the gold itself. What you did was barter with someone who accepted an unusual payment in trade. I once sold my baseball card collection but that doesn’t mean it had purchasing power. Harley dealers don’t accept gold coins not in circulation as payment for goods. Only coins in circulation with government specified values can be used to buy things in the normal marketplace.

 

[SkyChief]

Gold has no purchasing power. . .

False.

Gold has purchasing power. No matter how many times you repeat a lie, it is still a lie.

 

[devildavid]

False.

Gold has purchasing power. No matter how many times you repeat a lie, it is still a lie.

Gold has no purchasing power. It has value as an investment, like any other investment. But like any other investment it must be converted into a currency to have purchasing power. It is not accepted as a means of purchasing in any markets with currencies.

 

[SkyChief]

Gold has no purchasing power.

False.

Gold HAS purchasing power. No matter how many times you repeat a lie, it is still a lie.

It has value as an investment, like any other investment. . .

Gold is stupid investment. There are zero returns on gold.

Good lord.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Bullseye]

Gold IS money.

LOL What nonsense.

True, but they have purchasing power. This is where your ignorance really shines - - you are completely ignorant of purchasing power, and that's why your outlook on money is so absurd.

Physical gold has value (purchasing power) everywhere on the planet. Your (funny money) fiat Federal Reserve Notes do NOT. Of course, you are not at a level where you could possibly understand this - I'm only pointing it out for the people who can.

Gold has purchasing power everywhere. The U.S. dollar does not. And it should be pointed out that as time passes, the U.S. Dollar loses purchasing power. Gold NEVER loses purchasing power, because it cannot be inflated.

We agree somewhat here. I don't think Trump's lower tariffs would be enough to offset the lost funding from taxes on folks who make less than $150k/year. Taxes would need to be hiked on other people, but that would be bad.

Yeah, $150k seems like a little excessive.

 

[P_T]

MSN

 

[devildavid]

False.

Gold HAS purchasing power. No matter how many times you repeat a lie, it is still a lie.


Gold is stupid investment. There are zero returns on gold.

Good lord.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Gold today is only held as an investment. It is not held as a currency. It must be sold to get the value for it. It cannot be used to conduct any transactions in the marketplace. The valie of gold varies on the trading market, just like Al, other investments. It has no set value and it is not used as a measure of value. Gold has no purchasing power except for what it can be turned into as an investment in the market. No one uses gold as a means of exchange.

 

[devildavid]

MSN

Trump wants to make the poor really poor again, like during the gilded age. That way they can be lorded over and bullied.

 

[SkyChief]

Gold today is only held as an investment.

False. I have lots of gold. None of it is used for investment.

Investing in gold is stupid, because gold does never yields any returns.

Of course, you have no idea that any investment must yield at least some return. You have no idea what you're talking about, and your nonsensical posts and repeated mistruths demonstrate that.

. . . No one uses gold as a means of exchange. . . .

You keep repeating the same lies. And you will continue to repeat the lies. Because that's what you do.

 

[Econ4every1]

Gold IS money

No, gold is a near-universally valued commodity.

I'm old enough to remember when we could pay for goods and services with gold coins made by the U.S. mint.

Yes, but did you know it was the minting of the metal into the coin that gave it value from the Government's point of view? Minting coins from gold was a hedge against the loss of the face value of the coin. In other words, the government's currency minted from a commodity was its own form of insurance. That added trust to the system and the US established itself.

Did you know that the U.S. Mint still produces silver dollars and $50 gold coins?

Yes.

These silver and gold coins are legal tender. So you are totally wrong about gold not being money or currency.

Again, it's the minting into the coin that makes coins legal tender, not the metal they are made out of. Unless you think that copper, zinc, and nickel are also legal tender.

Gold has purchasing power all over the world.

You're confusing two different things. Gold has commodity value. Purchasing power comes from the currencies that gold be sold into.

There is not one country on the planet where gold cannot be used to buy goods and services.

Next time you're in the grocery store and pick about $100 of groceries, pull out a 1 gram bar of gold and see if they accept it as payment.

Better yet, try using it to pay your federal taxes.

So, the price of gold will always go UP as the purchasing power of the (inflated) currency goes DOWN. However, the value (purchasing power) of the gold never changed.

The same is true of any other stable commodity. That said, gold is valued as a place to investors to retreat in times of economic uncertainty.

 

[SkyChief]

No, gold is a near-universally valued commodity.

No, Gold IS money. I know because I have used gold coins struck by the U.S. Mint to buy stuff. Money is a concept, and if both the seller and buyer agree to the money (gold) then the sale transaction happens. The U.S. Dollar functions as money today, but will it function as money next year? Maybe . . . maybe NOT. Your Federal Reserve Notes are instruments of DEBT, and they will collapse when the Dollar collapses. My gold is an instrument of wealth, and immune to currency collapse.

No matter what happens to the U.S. Dollar, my gold will function as money to buy goods and services even AFTER the collapse of the USD.

Again, it's the minting into the coin that makes coins legal tender, not the metal they are made out of. Unless you think that copper, zinc, and nickel are also legal tender.

You just destroyed your own dopey argument.

. . . That said, gold is valued as a place to investors to retreat in times of economic uncertainty.

Gold is a stupid investment because gold NEVER yields any returns. I can't believe that I need to explain this to you.

 

[Econ4every1]

A dollar is a receipt for a claim check on an IOU.

That can be redeemed, if nothing else, a dollar in payment of your tax obligation.

A Federal Reserve Note is essentially an instrument of debt.

if there are two nations, perfectly matched in every. Some populations, some resources, similar governments and let's imagine they go to war.

If the only tangible difference between them is one uses a gold standard and the other fiat, the one using fiat will beat the other 100% of the time.

Gold economies are limited in quantity of spending and if more gold is needed to create war materials, if the country with the gold standard runs out, it has to do work to mine more gold, while the fiat country can simply create dollars and pay them to have more ships made.

There is nothing "Federal" about the Federal Reserve (the banking cartel which creates the money).

Isn't that From "The Creature from Jekyll Island? A book that reads less like sober economic analysis and more like a fever-dream conspiracy manifesto. Griffin stitches together half-baked theories and cherry-picked anecdotes to paint the Federal Reserve as a shadowy cabal bent on enslaving humanity, all while glossing over the extremely complex realities of central banking. It’s sensationalist, paranoid, and at times clumsily written—more suited to late-night conspiracy forums than serious scholarship.

Of course I'm assuming this is where you get this econ-smut from.

The Federal Reserve cannot be audited

Feds annual audit

no Congressional oversight.

Again, incorrect....

Under the Federal Reserve Act, the Fed must appear before Congress at least twice a year to explain its monetary policy and economic outlook. These “Humphrey-Hawkins” hearings are conducted by both the House Financial Services Committee and the Senate Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs Committee, where the Fed’s chair and other governors testify and answer questions on interest-rate decisions, balance-sheet actions, and financial-stability concerns.

Congress scrutinizes its budget through legislation such as the Federal Reserve Regulatory Oversight Act, which would require the Fed to submit to appropriations for certain non-monetary costs

There are no longer "Reserves' in the Federal Reserve

Bank reserves are the balances that commercial banks hold—either as vault cash or as deposits—at the central bank. Their primary functions are:

• Settlement of interbank payments: When you write a check or make an electronic payment, your bank debits your account and uses its reserves at the central bank to credit the recipient’s bank.
• Liquidity buffer: Reserves allow banks to meet sudden withdrawals or payment obligations without having to sell assets.
• Regulatory compliance: Central banks set minimum reserve requirements (a percentage of customer deposits) to ensure banks maintain enough liquidity.
  
  Importantly, reserves themselves are not lent out to households or businesses. Instead, banks extend loans by creating new deposit entries on their own ledgers; the requisite reserves are only debited or credited among banks when payments actually flow through the central‐bank settlement system.

 

[SkyChief]

That can be redeemed, if nothing else, a dollar in payment of your tax obligation.

if there are two nations, perfectly matched in every. Some populations, some resources, similar governments and let's imagine they go to war.

If the only tangible difference between them is one uses a gold standard and the other fiat, the one using fiat will beat the other 100% of the time.

Gold economies are limited in quantity of spending and if more gold is needed to create war materials, if the country with the gold standard runs out, it has to do work to mine more gold, while the fiat country can simply create dollars and pay them to have more ships made.

Isn't that From "The Creature from Jekyll Island? A book that reads less like sober economic analysis and more like a fever-dream conspiracy manifesto. Griffin stitches together half-baked theories and cherry-picked anecdotes to paint the Federal Reserve as a shadowy cabal bent on enslaving humanity, all while glossing over the extremely complex realities of central banking. It’s sensationalist, paranoid, and at times clumsily written—more suited to late-night conspiracy forums than serious scholarship.

Of course I'm assuming this is where you get this econ-smut from.

Feds annual audit


Again, incorrect....

Under the Federal Reserve Act, the Fed must appear before Congress at least twice a year to explain its monetary policy and economic outlook. These “Humphrey-Hawkins” hearings are conducted by both the House Financial Services Committee and the Senate Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs Committee, where the Fed’s chair and other governors testify and answer questions on interest-rate decisions, balance-sheet actions, and financial-stability concerns.

Congress scrutinizes its budget through legislation such as the Federal Reserve Regulatory Oversight Act, which would require the Fed to submit to appropriations for certain non-monetary costs


Bank reserves are the balances that commercial banks hold—either as vault cash or as deposits—at the central bank. Their primary functions are:

• Settlement of interbank payments: When you write a check or make an electronic payment, your bank debits your account and uses its reserves at the central bank to credit the recipient’s bank.
• Liquidity buffer: Reserves allow banks to meet sudden withdrawals or payment obligations without having to sell assets.
• Regulatory compliance: Central banks set minimum reserve requirements (a percentage of customer deposits) to ensure banks maintain enough liquidity.
  
  Importantly, reserves themselves are not lent out to households or businesses. Instead, banks extend loans by creating new deposit entries on their own ledgers; the requisite reserves are only debited or credited among banks when payments actually flow through the central‐bank settlement system.

We have agreed that Trump's proposal to eliminate taxes on those who earn less than $150k/year makes sense.

We disagree on whether gold is money or not, however that's irrelevant to the topic, so we should probably argue that in a different thread.

 

[P_T]

Prices are rapidly rising and the young will be hurt!
The value of gold is a joke. Digital currency is what's coming.

 

[What if...?]

That's redistribution of wealth, which is not really a valid function of government. It's Marxist nonsense, and has been going on in America since the 1930s. Government is too large, and it has become too powerful. Any collectivist ideology which relies on a centralized, confiscatory mandate (federal income taxes) is by definition authoritarian, which is always bad for liberty and freedom.

"The reason this country continues its drift toward socialism and big nanny government is because too many people vote in the expectation of getting something for nothing, not because they have a concern for what is good for the country." - Lyn Nofziger

Trump is trying (in vain) to eliminate government over-reach and in turn, restoring (some) liberty and freedom to the People. Naturally, as a libertarian, I respect that.


"Paying it back to the government" is a bizarre concept to me. The money that govenrment takes from us (in taxes) is still OURS. . . it still belongs to us stiffs who busted our asses working for it. The government's job is to allocate OUR money - money that was taken from us (in the form of income taxes).

You and I have some VERY different ideas about the roles and functions of government!

I think eliminating spending is the only way to reduce taxes. But no matter where spending is cut, some special-interest group starts the foot-stomping and the tantrums. Spending cuts are always messy.

"I am in favor of cutting taxes under any circumstances and for any excuse, for any reason, whenever it's possible." - Milton Friedman

Oh dear.

I appreciate your taking the time and effort to express your views on taxation and redistibution of tax funding. I disagree almost completely, but I'm not trying to imply that your views are nonsense - - many Americans feel the same way you do. Very few Americans share my views about small government and lower taxes, maximizing liberty and freedom. (TOO few, actually).

"As government expands, liberty contracts." - Ronald Reagan

Billionaires came up with libertarianism.

Which sounded great to me until I got to the laissez faire part.

That single term was what all the stuff aimed at stoners was created to provide cover for.

If it was actually adopted those billionaires would have all the money in no time due to them starting feet from the “finish” line.

I was alive and aware during the Vulture Capitalism days.

That’s a laissez faire example for everybody.

 

[Maidenrules29]

If this went through, and 150K was the cutoff, think about how many people who are currently making 170K would ask to be demoted or switch jobs lol. Especially if the tax on 170K was 30K or more, thus making your net income only 90K or less, below the actual threshold.

 

[Maidenrules29]

Digital curr ency is what's coming.

Please no...

 

[AZRWinger]

Conjecture would be an assertion made without evidence which I provided looking back at past results

On the contrary, you wrote "I guess" which I referenced in my comment.

Deleting all my comment save one line shows a profound lack of confidence in your ability to engage in discussion.

To wit, your assertions are based on feelings not facts, hopes and dreams, not reality backed by a track record of positive economic policy decisions. Any successes Trump has experienced has largely been a combination of he hopes that his policies would have positive outcomes (which have a positive effect on the market, until the results never show) and the fact that the economy at the beginning of his term was in a good place overall.

Results never show except when they do.
Both the S&P and Dow were up YTD at yesterday's close. Inflation is at 2.31% compared to the long term average of 3.28%. April job creation added 177K new jobs, slightly below expectation but noteworthy for the increase in spite of a 9K reduction in Federal jobs. These facts are easily verified support for Trump's success.

The last tariff resulted in 100's of millions in subsidies paid to farmers to keep them happy after they lost the competitive edge with our biggest rival, Brazil.

The Chinese imposed retaliatory targeted tariffs on products from Trump supporting farm districts in an attempt to undercut his support. Kim Jung Biden kept most of the tariffs in place.

The problem Trump will have this time, there isn't enough money on earth to pay the subsidies that will be required if he keeps on with tariffs after the failures that will result if he doesn't change course, which, I predict he will, but not until he creates a problem he then will solve (by removing his bad policy) and demands you recognize the solution he provided, but ignore the fact that he created the problem.

As of this date the Chinese are at the bargaining table after their attempts at retaliatory tariffs failed. India recently announced a new zero tariff policy. There is a long line of nations wanting to negotiate reformed trade agreements.

Why would Trump abandon much needed reforms to international trade while they are working?

As far as the bitter claim, remember that republicans openly rejected a republican lead proposal for boarder enforcement because they were bitter and salty because they didn't want the legislation to take place under Biden. Bitter salty politics.

Inform yourself about HR2 comprehensive immigration reform passed by the House and trashed by Senator Schumer with no Senate consideration.

Here's the arithmetic challenge, use fingers if needed, 2 members of the secretive cabal writing the so-called border security bill were elected as Democrats while 1 member was a Republican, which party held the majority?

President Trump has reduced illegal crossings at the border by +90% despite the bipartisan rejection of the Backroom Border bill.
 

For me, I don't have to be bitter, Trump will fail, he is an idiot and he's surrounded himself with sycophants and ass kissers who will get on their knees and let trump <NSFW> in their <NSFW> and they will simply ask for more. Willing to destroy their careers to have the opportunity to benefit from the grift and corruption.

Tis administration is a recipe for abject failure. Which is why the rest of us know that the only way for trump to "win" is to control information. Ya know, be more like his idol, Putin. And most of us, don't want that.

-Cheers

Thanks for the blatant display of unfiltered dead ender bitterness. Not a word about the facts showing Trump’s success just venting your blind dedication to Orange Man Bad.

PS. Yes, he is an idiot and to prove it I challenge anyone to post a clip of Trump espousing a cogent, well thought out point that demonstrates trumps command of economics, something the average person would be impressed by. I'll bet no one can produce anything beyond something that demonstrates his childlike understanding of complex issues. Something like....., "Tariff is a beautiful word, most people don't know that word, but I use it all the time. Everyone knows it's the best thing ever, and we're going to make Mexico pay for the wall, woops, I mean, Mexico is going to pay the US for the privilege of buying their goods, that we need, and want....."

 

[AZRWinger]

Now you're getting it.

No, I have long understood the mindless zealotry of Orange Man Bad.