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Trump Proposes Eliminating Income Taxes For People Earning Less Than $150k/year.

Back in 1946, the idea that we'd have a $30 trillion economy was considered science fiction.
Heck, go back to 1980 when the debt was just cresting $1 trillion and ask people at that time to imagine the US in near $37 trillion in debt they would have imagined near everyone shackled to a machine in some dystopian world where the nations cities are all crumbling and it's military and other assets sit rusting and unused. And yet, here we are still at the top of the world in many respects, not withstanding recent events.
 
I used to be a big "lets figure out how to pay down the national debt" guy

now?

now I'm a "stop taxing people's income" guy because the ONLY way out of $37 trillion and climbing national debt is default

that's it - period, end of story so might as well run that debt to $100 trillion

So you are a big “let’s do something foolish and destroy the country” guy now. Yes, that tracks.
 
So you are a big “let’s do something foolish and destroy the country” guy now. Yes, that tracks.

massive debt is GOOD

have you not listened to liberals? run that debt to $100 trillion, make NO cuts to spending or reduce Govt anything

spend
spend
spend
spend


very few people care about the national debt anymore and me? I have given up. At 15 trillion it might could have been tackled. At 37 trillion? its a runaway train and it will never stop until it hits something very big and hard and so might as well let it run 500 mph
 
massive debt is GOOD

have you not listened to liberals? run that debt to $100 trillion, make NO cuts to spending or reduce Govt anything

spend
spend
spend
spend


very few people care about the national debt anymore and me? I have given up. At 15 trillion it might could have been tackled. At 37 trillion? its a runaway train and it will never stop until it hits something very big and hard and so might as well let it run 500 mph

I’ll take that as a yes.
 
massive debt is GOOD

have you not listened to liberals? run that debt to $100 trillion, make NO cuts to spending or reduce Govt anything

spend
spend
spend
spend


very few people care about the national debt anymore and me? I have given up. At 15 trillion it might could have been tackled. At 37 trillion? its a runaway train and it will never stop until it hits something very big and hard and so might as well let it run 500 mph

At least when it comes to receiving government largesse, there isn’t much difference between today’s “liberal” and “conservative.” The “liberal” likes “helping” the needy by having government relieve “the rich” of their burden of having so much money, while the “conservative” likes taking government money that he “earned” or is otherwise entitled to.

What they both have in common is their legislators, who are eager to get re-elected, know the real score: much of this spending will be paid for by reducing the real cost of the accumulated debt by debasing the dollar. I mean, take a “conservative” Iowa or Wisconsin Republican farmer and American Legion post member and ask him if he wants to cut his agricultural subsidies and FCIC crop insurance; subsidized FSA and Farmer MAC loans; Social Security, Medicare, and VA benefits; military retirement pension; Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP) purchases of his cheese, eggs, beef, pork, vegetables, and other farm products; federally-subsidized NFIP insurance; FEMA disaster aid; access to cheap foreign migrant labor; etc. This guy would be completely unrecognizable by the Founding Fathers. But, unlike the liberal, at least he’ll hold his own when it comes to inflation because government has allowed him to keep and operate a farm that in a free market would have gone bust a long time ago.
 
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At least when it comes to receiving government largesse, there isn’t much difference between today’s “liberal” and “conservative.” The “liberal” likes “helping” the needy by having government relieve “the rich” of their burden of having so much money, while the “conservative” likes taking government money that he “earned” or is otherwise entitled to.

What they both have in common is their legislators, who are eager to get re-elected, know the real score: much of this spending will be paid for by reducing the real cost of the accumulated debt by debasing the dollar. I mean, take a “conservative” Iowa or Wisconsin Republican farmer and American Legion post member and ask him if he wants to cut his agricultural subsidies and FCIC crop insurance; subsidized FSA and Farmer MAC loans; Social Security, Medicare, and VA benefits; military retirement pension; Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP) purchases of his cheese, eggs, beef, pork, vegetables, and other farm products; federally-subsidized NFIP insurance; FEMA disaster aid; access to cheap foreign migrant labor; etc. This guy would be completely unrecognizable by the Founding Fathers. But, unlike the liberal, at least he’ll hold his own when it comes to inflation because government has allowed him to keep and operate a farm that in a free market would have gone bust a long time ago.

everybody wants spending cuts

not THEIR spending ... other people's spending ... and that's the problem
 
everybody wants spending cuts

not THEIR spending ... other people's spending ... and that's the problem

The problem is wanting spending cuts at all. It is a false concern always used for political power purposes, not due to any real problems with government spending.
 
The problem is wanting spending cuts at all. It is a false concern always used for political power purposes, not due to any real problems with government spending.

$37 trillion isn't a real problem ?
 
No, it isn’t. Next question.

How high do the interest payments have to get before you would consider it to be a real problem?

It will be about $1 trillion by 2026 and over $2 trillion by 2034. Interest payments on the debt are the fastest growing expense in the federal budget.
 
Nope. Still need tax revenue to pay for things.

you'd still have it - people over $150K would still be paying

and reducing the tax base/revenue would just make the national debt go higher and what does that matter anyway ?
 
Trump's goal is to eliminate Income Taxes for people earning less than $150k per year.

Eliminating taxes for people who earn less than $150,000 would effectively eliminate taxes for the vast majority of the country’s population.

Individual Income Taxes are the largest source of revenue for the U.S. government. So far in fiscal year 2025, individuals have paid $1.14 trillion in taxes, which is 51% of the total tax revenue collected, according to the Department of Treasury.

The Trump administration’s attempts to replace income taxes with import taxes is more likely to benefit high-income households rather than lower- or middle-income ones.

“We’re going to make a lot of money, and we’re going to cut taxes for the people of this country,” - Trump

source: https://moneywise.com/taxes/trumps-...-no-tax-for-people-making-under-150000-a-year

I just wish Trump would slightly raise the no-tax cutoff point to $162k/year.

I earn a lot more than $162K a year, so if I paid any income tax at all {paying tax is for suckers), I'd want it forgiven for those making less than $1 million.

MAGA.
 
The percentage of (total) annual federal spending required to pay interest on the national debt is now about 16% and growing.

fantastic - stop taxing people's wages then and let that $37 trillion go to $50 to 80 trillion its not a problem, right ?

How high do the interest payments have to get before you would consider it to be a real problem?

It will be about $1 trillion by 2026 and over $2 trillion by 2034. Interest payments on the debt are the fastest growing expense in the federal budget.

OK, what is it about federal finance that you guys still aren't getting?

*A country with its own currency has the power to create and spend that currency as they see fit.
*Bond issuance by such a country is not akin to household-type debt, and is not a true borrowing situation.
*Paying any amount of interest does not make it more difficult for the government to spend in the future.
*Sovereign debt does not need to be extinguished. We use it as savings and money.

I've been trying to get these conversations on the right track for over ten years now. If you have a problem with deficits and debt, that's fine, but get your reasoning right. The country is not in debt, but it is pushing dollars (more treasuries, really) into the economy via interest payments.
 
The tariffs only 'cost' us if if the retards on the left manage to convince the other countries to dig in and fight and outlast Trump. To which I would say...well done...retards...you 'won'.
Because other countries can't to do anything unless Americans tell them to? You do flatter yourselves.
 
No, just retail goods would be subject to the NST. Foods sold in the grocery stores would be exempt from a National Sales Tax, but your $71 filet mignon at the fancy restaurant WOULD be taxed.

Yes. I've heard that argument, too. It's a bad argument because poorer people buy less expensive products, so naturally their net NST would be substantially lower.
The national sales tax will just be on new retail goods? (lumber, patio stones, paint) How about utilities?(natural gas, electricity, water/wastewater) Services? (plumbing, music lessons, realtor services etc) Used stuff from a thrift store? Used vehicles/implements?

The sales tax regressive argument comes from low-income people paying more of their income for "necessary" stuff than higher-income people.
 
The national sales tax will just be on new retail goods? (lumber, patio stones, paint)
Yes.
How about utilities?(natural gas, electricity, water/wastewater) Services?
These things are services - not retail goods.
(plumbing, music lessons, realtor services etc)
Services would not be taxed. (the plumber will pay NST on his tools and supplies, and he can pass that burden on his customers by raising his fees)
Used stuff from a thrift store? Used vehicles/implements?
"Used", "second-hand" or "pre-owned" goods would not be subject to NST, since they were already taxed when purchased new. No used goods of any kind would be subject to NST.

The sales tax regressive argument comes from low-income people paying more of their income for "necessary" stuff than higher-income people.
Yes, but low income people (typically) buy less expensive goods that wealthy people, so they would pay less in NSTs.
 
*A country with its own currency has the power to create and spend that currency as they see fit.

Yes, but not without consequences. Creating money without corresponding increases in real output can lead to inflation. Zimbabwe and Venezuela both had sovereign currencies. Didn't go so great.

*Bond issuance by such a country is not akin to household-type debt, and is not a true borrowing situation.

But a bond is still a promise to pay. The government does rely on markets to absorb its debt - unless the central bank monetizes it, and again, that means the risk of inflation.

*Paying any amount of interest does not make it more difficult for the government to spend in the future.

Interest on the debt is already crowding out other spending. Furthermore investors who buy treasuries are using money that could have otherwise been invested productively in the private sector, instead of being wasted in the public sector.

*Sovereign debt does not need to be extinguished. We use it as savings and money.

At least until investors lose confidence.

The country is not in debt, but it is pushing dollars (more treasuries, really) into the economy via interest payments.

Semantics. If you owe someone a payment in the future, you’re in debt, end of story. Interest payments aren’t just "pushing dollars", they are a form of redistribution to the wealthy - a group which you people supposedly hate.
 
Yes, but not without consequences. Creating money without corresponding increases in real output can lead to inflation.

Well, think about how and when money is created. In the private sector, people and businesses get loans when they want to increase consumption or invest in their business. Both should increase production. In the public sector, money (bonds) is created for deficit spending, which should also increase production. The only money that probably won't be used in C or I is the interest on the debt, but that really just goes into more bonds and sits there.

And again, deficit spending results in more bonds, not more dollars. The CB adjusts the amount of MB as they see fit, but that's a separate operation.

The government doesn't shoot for some level of MB ahead of time, if that's what you were thinking.

Zimbabwe and Venezuela both had sovereign currencies. Didn't go so great.

The reason for both of those examples of hyperinflation (and most other instances of hyperinflation) was a big drop in production that led to shortages and inflation. Zimbabwe broke up the big farms and ag production cratered. And in Venezuela, the price of oil took a steep dive, so they could no longer pay for necessary imports with their oil exports.

Money printing is a poor response to real economic issues, but it's probably politically pragmatic at the time.

But a bond is still a promise to pay. The government does rely on markets to absorb its debt - unless the central bank monetizes it, and again, that means the risk of inflation.

Bonds are a promise to pay, but a government can meet those obligations without expending any real resources, unlike a household. As for relying on the markets to absorb treasuries, there will always be a market for treasuries as long as people are accepting dollars in payment. Exchanging bonds for dollars is not the thing anyone should be worrying about. Losing our foreign trade partners, their cheap goods, and the demand they bring is a far bigger worry right now.

Interest on the debt is already crowding out other spending. Furthermore investors who buy treasuries are using money that could have otherwise been invested productively in the private sector, instead of being wasted in the public sector.

The whole "crowding out" argument is overblown. Explain how the private sector earning interest on treasuries is going to crowd out anything. And investors who buy treasuries are only buying treasuries because there is nothing else out there that they want to invest in. The other options are always there, but at some point people will opt for the safe, low returns of treasuries instead of just holding cash.

At least until investors lose confidence.

If things ever get to the point where nobody is accepting the USD in payment, we will have far greater problems than our pile of outstanding bonds. And it won't be the fault of the bond market, it will be the fault of the economy at large, as in nobody buying what we are producing.

Semantics. If you owe someone a payment in the future, you’re in debt, end of story. Interest payments aren’t just "pushing dollars", they are a form of redistribution to the wealthy - a group which you people supposedly hate.

It's not semantics at all. The difference between household debt and sovereign debt changes the whole cost/benefit analysis of deficit spending. The government is not sacrificing future spending in order to deficit spend today.

I'm not crazy about the fact that the wealthy benefit from interest payments, but the wealthy already benefit from everything else disproportionately, and interest on treasuries looks like small potatoes next to their share of the income pie.
 
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