Trump on Saudi prince knowing of Khashoggi plot: 'Maybe he did, maybe he didn't'

[Evilroddy]

Short of overthrowing a government, when it comes to world leaders the closest you are going to get to a court room “guilty” is the determination of the intelligence community.

Skeptic Bob:

Well, let's change that. Let's build a global political imperative which demands that leaders and government officials operate within the norms of international law/convention or they will face either local or international legal prosecution and/or paralysing legal and economic sanctions and travel restrictions plus seizures of their monies and investments abroad. It would be difficult and a very long process, taking a few generations of hard work and vigorous diplomacy but eventually the world will be a better place for it. Why should billions of people tolerate the megalomaniacal abuses of the few who believe themselves above either law or convention. End "the divine right of the powerful" to ignore the rules which bind us all and break them into compliance or oblivion in a legal and procedural morass. Once political leaders are broken and trained then it's time to restart the process to break business and commercial elites who operate outside law and convention.

Mr. Trump and the Saudi Royal Family could be the first rogue elites to be broken and disciplined. Don't procrastinate or let anyone convince us that this is impossible. We have the numbers, the resources and the means to change the behaviour of or crush these rogue elites. All that is needed is the political will to begin this process.

To paraphrase the rogue elite Vladimir Lenin, "Law and Peace" is what the world demands.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

 

[JustHanging]

There is no bottom for Trump.

Trump has been the Saudi's bitch. He's been Putin's bitch. He's been Kim Jong Un's bitch.

How can there be a bottom for Trump when he is obviously very happy being a bottom boy?

 

[JustHanging]

Not likely. Even if they hate each we are still the infidels.

You are still infidels. And they have your leader acting as bottom boy. Again. Imagine, they have the USA being their bottom boy, when by all common sense and logic, it should be the other way around.

This is why the world laughs at you.

 

[Evilroddy]

OK I had to do more research and since you posted this.

1) WHAT is TRUMPS legal jurisdiction ON this in the first place?

1) Khashoggi WAS NOT a US Citizen, BUT a Temporary "O" Visa recipient.
2) I have tried to read up on Domestic Lawful Protections. These do NOT apply to "O" Visa recipients and LPR (Lawful Permanent Residents) NOT on US SOIL.
3) Khashoggi was a Saudi Citizen, Entering a Saudi consulate, Murder by Saudis. What US jurisdiction do we have now?


SO Lets say the PRINCE is guilty.... WE have World Wide Jurisdiction to find the Prince Guilty of authorizing the Murder and we have the jurisdiction to apply sanction on that country for actions they took on their on Countryman?

The acts Were ATROCIOUS. Unforgivable. BUT Trump has World Police Jurisdiction to claim fault and hold the Prince accountable? WOW that is SOME power!

Exactice:

1) President Trump can use the Magnitsky Act on the Saudi Royal Family and seize Saudi investments in America until the Saudis prosecute and punish all Saudis involved in the decision to torture, kill, dismember and disappear Jamal Kashoggi in the Saudi Embassy in Turkey. The jurisdiction of the Magnitsky Act is global.

2) Jamal Kashoggi was also a human being, with basic human rights, who was kidnapped, tortured, killed, dismembered, in part dissolved in acid and disappeared while his fiancé was waiting outside the embassy and suffered greatly too. Thus the Magnitsky Act applies here.

3) The US claims the right to prosecute persons operating outside its jurisdiction frequently. If they can indict and plan to prosecute Julian Assange (an Australian citizen operating outside of their jurisdiction in Europe) then they can indict and plan to prosecute members of the Saudi Royal Family outside of their jurisdiction. This is not a matter of legal jurisdiction at all but rather one of political will. Mr. Trump lacks the will or desire to discipline the House of Saud for their alleged crimes.

Cheers.
Evilroddy.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

I believe I said a number of times that the investigation needs to be done right, and that it's a sensitive matter. So I hope you're not directing your scare words (Gestapo tactics?) at me.

I don't think it's that strange that people are jumping all over this, though. It's not like this is the first time SA has done something shady. Without their oil, and the allies it buys them, they would be a villain nation, and would have be sorted out a long time ago. But you're right, they've got you guys by the balls, prudence is important.

But by releasing statements like Trump has about the money and the jobs, he's already paving SA's escape route from any accountability in this situation, if they did do it. I think that goes against the rules of prudence as well, no? "Uh, I dunno if they did it, and if they did do it I'm gonna be really mad, but we're not going to do anything to stop the money going back and forth, cuz we NEEEEEEEEED it..."

If I'm the SA prince, I'm laughing at you right now.

No I am not directing the scare wards to you. They are directed towards the millions of people in this country that want vengeance and to hell with justice or the rights of the individual. This kind of blind hate is scary. This is the fuel to start the nightmare of people like Hitler or Stalin. All we need is someone to channel this hate and to start a movement and we will see the pitch forks and torches and innocent people being drug from their homes to be sacrificed to the mob. I think the rich and powerful who own our media will reign in the media before it happens. They just want another bought and paid for party puppet they can own and control back in the White House. The problem is thing have and do get out of hand and like with Hitler. Even the rich and powerful fall prey to the monster they whip up.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

But by releasing statements like Trump has about the money and the jobs, he's already paving SA's escape route from any accountability in this situation, if they did do it. I think that goes against the rules of prudence as well, no? "Uh, I dunno if they did it, and if they did do it I'm gonna be really mad, but we're not going to do anything to stop the money going back and forth, cuz we NEEEEEEEEED it..."

If I'm the SA prince, I'm laughing at you right now.

Trump is not giving the prince an escape route. He his stating the facts. We have no evidence and nothing short of removing the prince from power the way we did with Saddam insane will accomplish anything. The prince is not elected and the only way he is leaving is by the people or our military toppling him. I do not even want to think of going down that road until we have undisputed evidence and it should be done as a united effort of the world that we are a part of not ruler of.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

You are still infidels. And they have your leader acting as bottom boy. Again. Imagine, they have the USA being their bottom boy, when by all common sense and logic, it should be the other way around.

This is why the world laughs at you.

We saw how it went with Saddam insane and this prince is much more popular among the Muslims of that region. Sanctions will do the same as they did with Cuba, Iran, North Korea, and Russia where it has accomplished nothing but fueled more hate and reinforced their leaders control over the people. So every time we think a leader of a country might be responsible for a death of an American we should start WW3. Nice. Great politics

 

[cabse5]

Short of overthrowing a government, when it comes to world leaders the closest you are going to get to a court room “guilty” is the determination of the intelligence community.

SIAP. The American intelligence community has hit rock bottom, IMO. Maybe you have another body who's more reliable?

 

[Parrish]

SIAP. The American intelligence community has hit rock bottom, IMO. Maybe you have another body who's more reliable?

If that's the case then it up to 45 to appoint new people that he does trust. It's really that simple.

 

[cabse5]

Too bad the US didn't have the same 'morals' when it came to alliances with foreign leaders and countries as we do now. Then we wouldn't have to deal with the USSR (after WWII).
Then we wouldn't have to deal with the Iranian nuclear arms deal.:roll:

One guy was murdered. Who knows who? Big deal, IMO. KSA has only helped the US clear out ISIS from Iraq and other areas of the Middle East. KSA has only purchased weapons from the US.
KSA only continues to help the US in an attempt to stabilize the Middle East.

Side note: Maybe the drop in oil prices is the clandestine punishment to KSA for Khashoggi?

 

[cabse5]

If that's the case then it up to 45 to appoint new people that he does trust. It's really that simple.

Without it seeming to be a conspiracy? Without obstruction of justice? What obstruction you ask? Never-Trumpers will make something up, IMO.

 

[rjay]

Trump is not giving the prince an escape route. He his stating the facts. We have no evidence and nothing short of removing the prince from power the way we did with Saddam insane will accomplish anything. The prince is not elected and the only way he is leaving is by the people or our military toppling him. I do not even want to think of going down that road until we have undisputed evidence and it should be done as a united effort of the world that we are a part of not ruler of.

He is the Prince. He is not the King. The power he has right now is because Daddy is stepping aside and has given it to him. If the International community gets up in arms about MBS (Mohammed Bone Saw). If they make it clear that they cannot, and will not work with him, the King will have to respond. He will have to choose another son to take over.

The only people I hear talking as if the choice is whether or not to abandon relationships with Saudi Arabia is Trump, and his supporters. Everyone else in the world knows that the real choice is whether or not to abandon relationships with MBS. And to make it clear to those in Saudi Arabia that if they want to advance their own interests they will have to do so without MBS.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

That single person murdered is a tragedy. But shouldn't we be just as concerned about the other 1.5 million people murdered all over the world. Why is this murder so important that it is worth more than 1.5 million other murders combined? I will tell you. It is our rich and powerful using their media to attack Trump who they do not own and cannot control like the rest of their bought and paid for party puppets. That is why this single murder is worth more than the other 1.5 million murders combined. Our president and our congress needs to stop everything they should be doing to run our country and should concentrate their efforts against this Saudi ruler who may not even be guilty.

Does the term "a single sparrow" ring even the slightest bell with you.

I appreciate that you would find "good reason" to defend Mr. Trump if he were to shoot and kill someone in the middle of Fifth Avenue but my version of morality does not extend to actually supporting someone who has most likely committed illegal acts simply because my "friends" (personally I feel rather sorry for Mr. Trump because I don't think that he actually has any friends [but that's a totally different matter {as is that it appears that the main reason why Mr. Trump has not 'visited the troops' in any war/combat zone is that Mr. Trump is afraid to do so <because there are people in combat zones who have guns and want to kill other people>}]) make a lot of money from that person.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

American dependance on SA money didn't just happen overnight in 2016. In a sense, America is vulnerable in a couple of directions, due to foreign investment and commerce in America. I mean, all the posturing with China is interesting and all, but if you think $100 billion is scary, how does $635 billion sound?

The difference between the "Saudi $100Bn" and the "Chinese $635Bn" is that the "Saudi $100Bn" is actually

• $10Bn (provided that the contracts actually go through) plus $90Bn that the Saudis have hinted that they might consider spending

while the "Chinese $635Bn" is actually

• $635Bn that really has to be paid.

Not only is the US dealing with a pig in a poke with respect to the "Saudi $100Bn" it doesn't even know if the poke has anything in it (or even if there is a poke).

 

[JustHanging]

We saw how it went with Saddam insane and this prince is much more popular among the Muslims of that region.

And that means Trump has to repeatedly play bottom boy to authoritarian leaders? This is getting to be a pattern for Trump: Saudi's bottom boy. Russia's bottom boy. North Korea's bottom boy. In your opinion, do you think Trump is playing bottom boy for pleasure, for money, or both?

Sanctions will do the same as they did with Cuba, Iran, North Korea, and Russia where it has accomplished nothing but fueled more hate and reinforced their leaders control over the people.

OK, sorry, I thought you had at least some fundamental knowledge of your country's world politics. Suffice it to say Saudi Arabia is NOT in the same category as Cuba, Iran, NK, or Russia in terms of American foreign policy, so using them to draw an ananlogy is nonsensical.

So every time we think a leader of a country might be responsible for a death of an American we should start WW3. Nice. Great politics

OK, sorry, I thought you also had some fundamental understanding of the English language. Please reread what I wrote again, this time with a dictionary handy. You will discover that I never said that, or anything remotely like that.

 

[MrShangles]

This is the second time, the first being Helsinki, where Trump has publically taken the 180 degree position of the intelligence community.

Was it same intelligence community that told us of weapons of mass destruction, he has no reason to doubt them does he?


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[MrShangles]

OK I had to do more research and since you posted this.

1) WHAT is TRUMPS legal jurisdiction ON this in the first place?

1) Khashoggi WAS NOT a US Citizen, BUT a Temporary "O" Visa recipient.
2) I have tried to read up on Domestic Lawful Protections. These do NOT apply to "O" Visa recipients and LPR (Lawful Permanent Residents) NOT on US SOIL.
3) Khashoggi was a Saudi Citizen, Entering a Saudi consulate, Murder by Saudis. What US jurisdiction do we have now?


SO Lets say the PRINCE is guilty.... WE have World Wide Jurisdiction to find the Prince Guilty of authorizing the Murder and we have the jurisdiction to apply sanction on that country for actions they took on their on Countryman?

The acts Were ATROCIOUS. Unforgivable. BUT Trump has World Police Jurisdiction to claim fault and hold the Prince accountable? WOW that is SOME power!

I thought liberals didn’t want Trump to rule the world, which is it?
This murder isn’t any of out business, they have other murders in the world, do we go to bat for every one of them, or just this one person that’s not even a us citizen


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[prometeus]

I thought liberals didn’t want Trump to rule the world, which is it?
This murder isn’t any of out business, they have other murders in the world, do we go to bat for every one of them, or just this one person that’s not even a us citizen

That is such a myopic line of reasoning as to border on ridiculous. While entirely true that is was murder, it was not a garden variety crime, it was political and at the orders of a top gov. official an that does make a difference since it was a dissident that was murdered. Why did we speak up when the Russians murdered someone in England? Why does Trump have to lie in bed with murderers?

 

[Rexedgar]

Was it same intelligence community that told us of weapons of mass destruction, he has no reason to doubt them does he?


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Can’t argue with that logic! :2wave:

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Too bad the US didn't have the same 'morals' when it came to alliances with foreign leaders and countries as we do now. Then we wouldn't have to deal with the USSR (after WWII).
Then we wouldn't have to deal with the Iranian nuclear arms deal.:roll:

One guy was murdered. Who knows who? Big deal, IMO. KSA has only helped the US clear out ISIS from Iraq and other areas of the Middle East. KSA has only purchased weapons from the US.
KSA only continues to help the US in an attempt to stabilize the Middle East.

Side note: Maybe the drop in oil prices is the clandestine punishment to KSA for Khashoggi?

The drop in oil prices resulted from the US government announcing that it was going to reduce the amount of oil that Iran could sell.

As a result of that announcement, the remaining OPEC countries increased production in order to fill the void left by the decreased Iranian oil availability.

Then the US announced that the sanctions wouldn't affect around 90+% of the Iranian oil sales.

This resulted in their being a "glut hump" in oil availability.

This resulted in the sales prices for oil dropping.

Once the "glut hump" has passed, oil prices will return to "normal" (plus a bit in order to compensate the OPEC nations for the decreased profit that they made due to the "skilfully engineered" increase in oil availability.

The odds on the OPEC nations feeling kindly towards the US (or Mr. Trump) after their profits were slashed due to Mr. Trump's actions are not the kind of odds that I would bet the rent on.

Who knew that commodity pricing could be so complicated?

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

He is the Prince. He is not the King. The power he has right now is because Daddy is stepping aside and has given it to him. If the International community gets up in arms about MBS (Mohammed Bone Saw). If they make it clear that they cannot, and will not work with him, the King will have to respond. He will have to choose another son to take over.

The only people I hear talking as if the choice is whether or not to abandon relationships with Saudi Arabia is Trump, and his supporters. Everyone else in the world knows that the real choice is whether or not to abandon relationships with MBS. And to make it clear to those in Saudi Arabia that if they want to advance their own interests they will have to do so without MBS.

It might be interesting to see what happens if 18 of the other 19 members to the next G20 conference got up and walked out when the Crown Prince walked in.

(I say 18 rather than 19 because there is (in my estimation) a ZERO chance that the US delegation would do that.)

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Was it same intelligence community that told us of weapons of mass destruction, he has no reason to doubt them does he?


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Actually the (almost) unanimous opinion of the professionals in the American intelligence community was that Saddam Hussein did NOT have weapons of mass destruction.

You are confusing the "findings" of the carefully cherry-picked NON-professionals who carefully cherry-picked the "evidence" that they considered in order to come up with an "opinion" that exactly mirrored the one that they had been told Mr. Bush wanted to hear with reality.

 

[MrShangles]

Actually the (almost) unanimous opinion of the professionals in the American intelligence community was that Saddam Hussein did NOT have weapons of mass destruction.

You are confusing the "findings" of the carefully cherry-picked NON-professionals who carefully cherry-picked the "evidence" that they considered in order to come up with an "opinion" that exactly mirrored the one that they had been told Mr. Bush wanted to hear with reality.

We went to war because of the intelligence community.


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[JustHanging]

I thought liberals didn’t want Trump to rule the world, which is it?

Nobody wants Trump to rule the world. But he is the Saudis bottom boy. He is Russia's bottom boy. He is Kim Jong Un's bottom boy.

How about just stop being bottom boy for authoritarian regimes? That would be a good start imo.


Christ, conservatives used to have conniptions about Obama bowing a shade too low. Now you have Trump playing bottom boy over and over and over, and worse, making your country bottom boy to these regimes, and nearly all the conservatives are cheering him on. SMH.

 

[Deuce]

I thought liberals didn’t want Trump to rule the world, which is it?
This murder isn’t any of out business, they have other murders in the world, do we go to bat for every one of them, or just this one person that’s not even a us citizen


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Maybe we shouldn't give billions of dollars to murderers though