Trump doesn't deserve all the blame he has been getting.

[Montgomery]

Who should be in prison is Biden for his greatest election fraud organization in US history. The 2020 election fraud was the greatest acts of treason and treachery in US history.

I hear your anger and frustration joko and have no doubt on your sincerity. Would you kill to defend your country against the treachery and treason?
Would it be accepted as lawful and legitimate killing for a just cause?
I think it will depend on how the political winds blow in America in the immediate future..

Your country's democracy may either survive or it may have already been defeated. I'll lave it to you to interpret that as to which side has won?

 

[joko104]

I hear your anger and frustration joko and have no doubt on your sincerity. Would you kill to defend your country against the treachery and treason?
Would it be accepted as lawful and legitimate killing for a just cause?
I think it will depend on how the political winds blow in America in the immediate future..

Your country's democracy may either survive or it may have already been defeated. I'll lave it to you to interpret that as to which side has won?

Forum rules rather strictly prohibit suggesting a person take up arms to defend democracy and against treachery and treason. Simply, any answer but "no" possibly could get a poster banned. By today's standards, the American Revolutionaries were all terrorists for which the worst of all was George Washington. The USA government now is FAR more oppressive than was King George.

That said, there is no circumstance in which I would join an armed revolution in any way. I don't think voters have been electing presidents for time anyway. For example, I believe Gore won, Hilary won and Biden lost. But the powers-that-be wanted W Bush, Trump over Clinton, and Biden over Trump. MONEY and POWER are the motives. Whoever the plutocrats and kleptocrats want to be president will be president.

99..9% of people to ever live have lived under dictatorships and tyranny with little to no rights whatsoever. So the USA becoming a corporate-fascist plutocratic police-state for which the kleptocrats are the enforcers - as the USA now is (with 20,000+ "executive officers" who could order everyone wear their underwear on the outside for inspection merely by saying they think it necessary for health reasons) - is growing reality in the USA.

There is no free press anymore, just international corporate propaganda. No rule of law. No Bill Of Rights. No Constitution. All those are just illusions - more than ever anyway.

We live way back in a woodland swamp. Out of the path. But if need be, we'd leave the USA, have the means to do so and have the place to go. There is NO circumstance I would engage in any armed or physical rebellion and in general don't like any large gatherings of any kind.

"Not afraid to fight, but not to proud not to run away." I'm nobody. Can't change anything, meaning I live in reality as it is, not as I wish it to be nor pretend otherwise.

 

[Nickyjo]

Hatred for a political figure that can't strike back is easy to do.
Other simpletons who continue to live off of hate for a duly elected president join together to where, as they sit together in their own little echo chamber, they can blame Trump for all of 400,000 deaths and for inciting ALL of the people at the rally to invade the Capitol Building.

As Josef Goebbels wrote:
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

Trump minimized the threat of the disease when he knew it was something big. He could not have done that, or not pushed quack cures, he could have called for preventative measures sooner, not helped foster anti-Asian feelings by referring to it as the "Kung Flu" (har-de-har-har), could have addressed the American people about the pandemic. I repeat, had he shown the leadership that Giuliani did post 9/11 he would still be president. He didn't. And isn't. No one to blame but himself.

As Adolf Hitler put it: "A mass rally is designed to switch off the thinking process. Only then will the people be willing to accept the magical simplifications before which all resistence crumbles," also known as "I will build a wall and Mexico will pay for it."

 

[bongsaway]

I guess it makes people feel better to blame someone (the scapegoat or fall guy) when bad things happen but that doesn't make it true. It could be an honest mistake for many Trump haters that clearly aren't exactly open-minded critical thinkers whenever it comes to blaming Trump for something.

But it is nothing short of a form of brainwashing for the media to repeat lies such as that Trump is supposedly responsible for so many COVID deaths, guilty of inciting treason, etc. over and over again until they are accepted as undisputed facts by so many of the sheeple that don't know any better. This is not news, it is blatant propaganda; they don't even try to hide the irrational bias and hate anymore.

Trump lost, get over it.

 

[Vadinho]

I think his voters so badly want to feel better about their choices that we keep seeing them try posts like these to see if anyone will ever forgive them for foisting this monstrosity upon the world. We won't let you get off that easy. A Trump vote was a vote for cruelty, turnabout is fair play.

 

[Montgomery]

Forum rules rather strictly prohibit suggesting a person take up arms to defend democracy and against treachery and treason. Simply, any answer but "no" possibly could get a poster banned.

I didn't mean to force you out joko and so I also understand that you can't voice your opinion here on this forum.
Were you in the Capitol on January 6th?

And I don't expect you to answer that question either.

Forum rules rather strictly prohibit suggesting a person take up arms to defend democracy and against treachery and treason.

You framed that comment in such a way that it became your answer.

 

[joko104]

I didn't mean to force you out joko and so I also understand that you can't voice your opinion here on this forum.
Were you in the Capitol on January 6th?

And I don't expect you to answer that question either.



You framed that comment in such a way that it became your answer.

While allowed in the Bill Of Rights, I oppose all protest gatherings and would never participate in any protest gathering.

I exactly answered your question. I would stay out of the way as much as possible. If remaining in the USA for any reason was untenable or too dangerous, then we (family) would leave the USA. As I stated, we have that option any time we want it with little to no notice. Just go to our 52 foot ex drug running twin diesel boat and leave to our other waterfront remote home elsewhere.

What you do if a rightwing group was attempting in real ways and succeeding at an insurgent overthrow of the government? What would you do if mass murdering Neo-Nazis were taking over the country and coming for you and your family? We're armed to the teeth, but we'd run.

Answer your own question. I did. Would you stay and fight for your lives or try to flee the country?

 

[Aunt Antifa]

I guess it makes people feel better to blame someone (the scapegoat or fall guy) when bad things happen but that doesn't make it true. It could be an honest mistake for many Trump haters that clearly aren't exactly open-minded critical thinkers whenever it comes to blaming Trump for something.

But it is nothing short of a form of brainwashing for the media to repeat lies such as that Trump is supposedly responsible for so many COVID deaths, guilty of inciting treason, etc. over and over again until they are accepted as undisputed facts by so many of the sheeple that don't know any better. This is not news, it is blatant propaganda; they don't even try to hide the irrational bias and hate anymore.

You say this like he’s not guilty of those things.

 

[Aunt Antifa]

No, it wasn't stolen. Trump lost because he's an asshole and believes he's the smartest person in the room. But let's not pretend the election was clean.

It was engineered, manipulated, steered, and presented as fact by media, pollsters and pundits, academia, corporate interests, billionaires, Europe, and intelligence.

It was a massive coordinated effort, and it worked. Democracy is dead. We are ruled by a plutocracy.

We don’t have to pretend it was clean. We have proof. Over and over again.

That’s how evidence-based livin works!

 

[Deuce]

For example, seeing the media focus on the total number of COVID deaths in the US and act like that means we have done so much worse than the rest of the world is misleading because if you look at the deaths per capita the US results were actually similar to or even better than some other countries like the UK, Belgium, Italy, Spain, France, etc.

So I'm not convinced that the US results have really been all that bad in the first place especially when you consider that over 40% of Americans are obese and however many already had heart disease, diabetes, or other risk factors, were over 60, and/or were living in nursing homes. Sure you can cherry pick obscure examples like Vietnam, New Zealand, etc. to point at but there could be so many other differences beyond what the leaders did that it's like comparing apples and oranges.

It's easy to play arm-chair quarterback and second guess the results but to this day I still don't see what exactly the silver bullet obvious solution was that Trump should have done instead. Also, I don't see anything significant that Biden has done differently so far after all his talk about having a plan, unlike Trump. The main difference I see is that Biden likes to wear a mask and hide out at home more, big deal, it looks like it is mostly for show.

If it really would have been all that easy for practically anyone other than Trump to prevent so many COVID deaths then why didn't the UK, France, Spain, Switzerland, etc. already do it (per capita)? For that matter why didn't Democrat governors like Cuomo, Newsome, Whitmer, etc. do a better job given that they showed they already had the authority to implement strict lockdowns, travel restrictions, etc. on their own without needing to wait for Trump? Maybe that's simply because it was a new virus that was never going to be contained all that easily in the US in the first place regardless of the actions taken.

"Other countries did a bad job too" isn't an argument.

There is no silver bullet solution and nobody is claiming one exists. You're attacking a straw man, it's dishonest.

Trump actively made things worse. He convinced millions of dipshits that masks were bad. He convinced millions of dipshits not to cooperate with contact tracing. He convinced millions of dipshits that it was all a haox.

He made it worse. Why do you not believe in responsibility?

 

[frontline grunt]

"Other countries did a bad job too" isn't an argument.

There is no silver bullet solution and nobody is claiming one exists. You're attacking a straw man, it's dishonest.

Trump actively made things worse. He convinced millions of dipshits that masks were bad. He convinced millions of dipshits not to cooperate with contact tracing. He convinced millions of dipshits that it was all a haox.

He made it worse. Why do you not believe in responsibility?

It's about having realistic expectations for a country like the US with people traveling in from outside and between states, over 40% obese, however many living in nursing homes like sitting ducks, etc. It's not a straw man at all that the media basically blamed this all on Trump repeatedly in a misleading and blatantly biased way to make it sound like the US response was by far the worst in the world when we actually had similar or better results in terms of deaths per capita compared to several European countries. I still don't see any reasons to believe that Trump is responsible for all these deaths or that the results wouldn't have been similar or even worse with Hillary in charge instead.

Basically anyone that was ever going to take the virus seriously regardless of what Trump did or said was already taking it as seriously as possible by the fall and they were still powerless to stop the worst wave of infections in the fall and winter anyway. So to me it looks like it was just going to run its course in the US and the best they could ever hope to do was slow the spread so it wouldn't completely overwhelm the hospitals, it was never realistically going to be completely stopped. It's not a fact at all that Trump was responsible for these deaths; it is an unfair assumption largely spread by clearly biased Trump haters that will never give him a break or credit for anything.

 

[Deuce]

It's about having realistic expectations for a country like the US with people traveling in from outside and between states, over 40% obese, however many living in nursing homes like sitting ducks, etc. It's not a straw man at all that the media basically blamed this all on Trump repeatedly in a misleading and blatantly biased way to make it sound like the US response was by far the worst in the world when we actually had similar or better results in terms of deaths per capita compared to several European countries. I still don't see any reasons to believe that Trump is responsible for all these deaths or that the results wouldn't have been similar or even worse with Hillary in charge instead.

Basically anyone that was ever going to take the virus seriously regardless of what Trump did or said was already taking it as seriously as possible by the fall and they were still powerless to stop the worst wave of infections in the fall and winter anyway. So to me it looks like it was just going to run its course in the US and the best they could ever hope to do was slow the spread so it wouldn't completely overwhelm the hospitals, it was never realistically going to be completely stopped. It's not a fact at all that Trump was responsible for these deaths; it is an unfair assumption largely spread by clearly biased Trump haters that will never give him a break or credit for anything.

For the record: you are claiming that Trump's words don't affect anyone decisions? His followers don't listen to him at all?

Because that would be a stupid claim.

 

[bomberfox]

I never said that Trump was perfect, the best president ever, or even a very nice and likeable guy in general. But there's a difference between not winning some kind of popularity contest and jumping to the conclusion that he is 100% responsible for things that he is almost certainly not entirely responsible for.

I don't have a problem with looking at any actual facts that I have some time to investigate. But so far I mostly just see a whole lot of emotional Trump hate and all the facts that I see still mostly support what I already thought, that blatant propaganda in the media and social media have effectively distorted public perception to a large extent to demonize Trump and his supporters in a misleading and unfair way.

Poor baby.

 

[frontline grunt]

Trump may not deserve all the blame for everything that happened in his term in office but there is one thing he certainly deserves the blame for and that is the capitol riots on Jan 6 2021. Trump set in motion during the summer of 2020, that if there were mail in ballots, fraud would occur and that was the only way he would lose the election. He at first even said Florida shouldn't have mail in ballots but altered his position and applied for an absentee ballot. After the election he said the election was stolen so ignorant Trump supporters started the stop the steal movement. His lawyers with lawsuits went nowhere but did he give up, no. He tried to get states to elect their own set of electors so that they could cast their votes for him. He even called Georgia and asked them to find enough votes so he would win by one. He tried to get Pence not to certify the results, which is mostly ceremony and if he did, it would be illegal. He to this day says he won in a landslide. Trump actually in my opinion caused both Georgia senate seats to go to Democrats, because if you tell people the election was fraudulent, what percentage of republicans didn't vote in the runoff because they believed that it wouldn't matter. At the recent Republican cpac, he touted the same bullshit. In closing if the whole election was fraudulent then how come Democrats didn't increase their lead in the house and retake the Senate on election day.

I still don't see any reasons to believe that Trump ever intended for this to be anything more than a peaceful protest which is perfectly legal. If a relatively few QAnon believers and other misguided individuals thought it was a good idea to break the law and riot this way then that's on them, not Trump. Trump did not "incite" this, it looks like some of them were already planning to cause trouble days or months before his speech and he specifically said, "peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard" which some media reports dishonestly left out of stories on this. It is basically a made up false narrative spread by the biased media and Trump haters.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

I don't have a problem with looking at any actual facts that I have some time to investigate.

With all due respect, I suggest you do that. You need to, because you're missing a lot of them right now.

 

[frontline grunt]

For the record: you are claiming that Trump's words don't affect anyone decisions? His followers don't listen to him at all?

Because that would be a stupid claim.

No, my point is that I don't believe different decisions would have made much of a difference in the number of deaths one way or another for the simple reason that any decisions made so far were basically powerless to stop the worst wave of infections in the fall and winter anyway. Most people were already wearing masks by then anyway, not even necessarily by choice, but simply because many/most stores, restaurants, etc. were requiring it and it didn't stop this wave of infections. Some governors re-imposed lockdowns and that didn't stop it either. So that's why I don't believe it could have realistically been stopped by anyone or that the results would have been significantly different with Hillary in charge instead.

 

[frontline grunt]

With all due respect, I suggest you do that. You need to, because you're missing a lot of them right now.

Let's see any facts I am missing here. I suspect what you are considering facts are not really indisputable facts at all, mostly just opinions, false assumptions, etc.

 

[ataraxia]

I guess it makes people feel better to blame someone (the scapegoat or fall guy) when bad things happen but that doesn't make it true. It could be an honest mistake for many Trump haters that clearly aren't exactly open-minded critical thinkers whenever it comes to blaming Trump for something.

But it is nothing short of a form of brainwashing for the media to repeat lies such as that Trump is supposedly responsible for so many COVID deaths, guilty of inciting treason, etc. over and over again until they are accepted as undisputed facts by so many of the sheeple that don't know any better. This is not news, it is blatant propaganda; they don't even try to hide the irrational bias and hate anymore.

What angers me, and many others, is the cynical calculations that went into his under playing the pandemic. He was planning on getting reelected based on the strong performance of the economy. He did not want anything to mar that. When the pandemic came out, he also knew that it was deadly. But he thought that with proper propaganda she could keep son true damage of it in terms of human lives from the American people. He thought he could continue the economy steamrolling over all these dead American bodies. Why? So he could get reelected.

This gives me the impression that he was not really in this for the true welfare of American citizens, but his own personal power and glory. He would say and do anything for that. This was never about you.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Let's see any facts I am missing here. I suspect what you are considering facts are not really indisputable facts at all, mostly just opinions, false assumptions, etc.

First there has to be agreement as to what constitutes incitement.
When a candidate yells to the crowd that they must fight like Hell during the campaign season, it's protected free speech.
Pretty much anything they want to say is, doesn't matter how much they flower it up with spicy encouragements, it's free speech.
"Crush the enemy, kill the evil doers" ....doesn't matter, it is definitely free speech.
It is all a path to securing the election, securing the vote.

Once the election's over, once you've exhausted your day(s) in court, once it's all been said and done and certified, then it's not campaign season anymore. So now the person speaking isn't a candidate anymore, because the election's over.

§ 2383 – Rebellion or insurrection. (Anyone) Inciting OR ASSISTING (my caps) a rebellion against the United States, or giving comfort to those who insight an insurrection, can be imprisoned for up to 10 years under this statute.

§ 2384 – Seditious conspiracy. If two or more people in the U.S. conspire to overthrow, destroy, or oppose the U.S. government by force or to prevent the application of the law or to take property of the U.S. contrary to its authority, they can be imprisoned for up to 20 years.

If you say stuff like "FIGHT LIKE HELL"
AFTER an election and
AFTER the results have been litigated 60 times in court and
AFTER those results have been certified in Congress, it's not about an election anymore, because the election is over, and you're now fighting the duly certified voice of the people via their duly elected representatives.
You're not fighting to GET elected anymore, you're fighting those who DID GET elected, and that's why it is now sedition and insurrection.

Trump's words had no other meaning once the election occurred.
Before the election? “FIGHT!!” meant vote.
“Stand up to those that would put you down! Fight!” Means go to the polls.
All rhetoric had plausible deniability...
...after the election? You’re inciting people to... what?
There’s literally nothing else for them to do.
It’s a call to action with literally no other end game.
Show me what other possible end game there could have been OTHER THAN storming the Capitol.

I'm half expecting you to reply with:
"It's not a coup d'etat unless it's from the Coup D'etat province in France, otherwise it's just Sparkling White Nationalist violence."

 

[Elmer Fudd]

I still don't see any reasons to believe that Trump ever intended for this to be anything more than a peaceful protest which is perfectly legal. If a relatively few QAnon believers and other misguided individuals thought it was a good idea to break the law and riot this way then that's on them, not Trump. Trump did not "incite" this, it looks like some of them were already planning to cause trouble days or months before his speech and he specifically said, "peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard" which some media reports dishonestly left out of stories on this. It is basically a made up false narrative spread by the biased media and Trump haters.

You should stop looking at things with rose colored glasses. Yes he said those words "peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard". He was supposed to march with them and he went to the white house instead and did absolutely nothing to stop the rioters. He is as guilty as sin. I'm affraid that you don't understand the old saying if it looks like a duck quaks like a duck then it's a duck. if you took a poll of every voter in the United states, I'd bet money that they would say he was guilty of insurrection. Words to coverup his actual intent don't mean shit. I hope you didn't vote for Trump because if you did you have been duped by a pathological liar, egotist, conspiracy theorist, and a vindictive person with no morals.

 

[Caine]

You should stop looking at things with rose colored glasses. Yes he said those words "peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard". He was supposed to march with them and he went to the white house instead and did absolutely nothing to stop the rioters. He is as guilty as sin. I'm affraid that you don't understand the old saying if it looks like a duck quaks like a duck then it's a duck. if you took a poll of every voter in the United states, I'd bet money that they would say he was guilty of insurrection. Words to coverup his actual intent don't mean shit. I hope you didn't vote for Trump because if you did you have been duped by a pathological liar, egotist, conspiracy theorist, and a vindictive person with no morals.

The riotous behavior had already begun before he even left the area where people had gathered to hear him speak.......... was the sitting President supposed to physically go there himself to stop the rioters? That doesn't sound like the type of atmosphere that is safe for a President to attend to.

 

[Elmer Fudd]

The riotous behavior had already begun before he even left the area where people had gathered to hear him speak.......... was the sitting President supposed to physically go there himself to stop the rioters? That doesn't sound like the type of atmosphere that is safe for a President to attend to.

He did physically by car go there and went to his office or residence, whatever and didn't utter a word. Why was he silent and not vocal about what was happening. You tell me, because in my eyes he was relishing the disruption because that's the kind of vindictive individual he is.

 

[Caine]

He did physically by car go there and went to his office or residence, whatever and didn't utter a word. Why was he silent and not vocal about what was happening. You tell me, because in my eyes he was relishing the disruption because that's the kind of vindictive individual he is.

Well of course he was doing that in your eyes. Your opinion is noted. As is your inability to respond to the question posed and misdirect to something else.

 

[Elmer Fudd]

Well of course he was doing that in your eyes. Your opinion is noted. As is your inability to respond to the question posed and misdirect to something else.

No I didn't misdirect that was your opinion, I only stated actual fact that after his speech he left and was taken to the white house where the riot was going on and he did nothing. Then I stated my opinion which you can dismiss, that's you perogative.

 

[Caine]

No I didn't misdirect that was your opinion, I only stated actual fact that after his speech he left and was taken to the white house where the riot was going on and he did nothing. Then I stated my opinion which you can dismiss, that's you perogative.

The riot was going on at the White House? Hmm....
Please. Tell me more.