Trump’s “Christian” supporters do not follow a central message of Jesus

[Slartibartfast]

And Jesus wasn't talking about governmental entities anyway; the "you" to whom He refers is the individual and that one individual's decision to give alms, clothe the poor, visit the sick, etc.

That is one possible interpretation, but given that Jesus not specifically rule out various categories of government spending, Christians are well within their faith to express that in terms of how they support society versus individual action as that door of "how" was left unaddressed. This means that the act of faith of giving to the poor can be expressed in any number of ways which can be individual, in support of social spending, or something else entirely as long as its done as an act of faith. If anything the answer is in the parable of the three talents and depends on how one perceives whether this type of spending is bearing fruit. However, that measure can be applied to any method of giving as well.

If you help the person with the sign at the sign of the road and they use that to buy drugs, your spending didn't bear fruit. If they use it to feed their kids, then it did. If you support governmental spending and it helps a family escape poverty, then it did. However, if a family tries to use it to avoid work, then it didn't.

 

[nota bene]

That is one possible interpretation, but given that Jesus not specifically rule out various categories of government spending, Christians are well within their faith to express that in terms of how they support society versus individual action as that door of "how" was left unaddressed. This means that the act of faith of giving to the poor can be expressed in any number of ways which can be individual, in support of social spending, or something else entirely as long as its done as an act of faith. If anything the answer is in the parable of the three talents and depends on how one perceives whether this type of spending is bearing fruit. However, that measure can be applied to any method of giving as well.

If you help the person with the sign at the sign of the road and they use that to buy drugs, your spending didn't bear fruit. If they use it to feed their kids, then it did. If you support governmental spending and it helps a family escape poverty, then it did. However, if a family tries to use it to avoid work, then it didn't.

The point is that the impulse to give comes from the human heart, the individual's heart, rather than a mandate or even expectation. Why, sure, that impulse can move an individual generosity expressed in many ways, but do you donate to state or fed agencies? (No, paying taxes--rendering unto Caesar--doesn't count.)

I believe that I will be judged according to what is in my heart, by what motivated me. If I donate to a food bank and the recipient trades the food for crack or if I give money to someone begging who buys cheap wine with it, this is out of my control. I don't think that the judgment of the world, whether my donations "bore fruit," is the point. At all.

 

[Daisy]

The Bible explains that the Kingdom of God is a real government in heaven with Jesus Christ as King. This Kingdom is the one that Jesus taught his followers to pray for.—Matthew 6:10.

When God’s Kingdom rules over the earth, God will prevent natural disasters, including earthquakes, from harming people. (Isaiah 32:18) What is more, he will undo the physical and emotional harm caused by today's world. (Isaiah 65:17; Revelation 21:3, 4)

What Will God’s Kingdom Accomplish?​

The Bible’s answer​

God’s Kingdom will replace all human governments and rule over the entire earth. (Daniel 2:44; Revelation 16:14) Once that happens, God’s Kingdom will . . .

Remove the wicked, whose selfishness harms us all. “As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth.”—Proverbs 2:22.

End all wars. “[God] is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth.”—Psalm 46:9.

Bring prosperity and security to the earth. “Everyone will live in peace among their own vineyards and fig trees, and no one will make them afraid.”—Micah 4:4, Good News Translation.

Make the earth into a paradise. “Thirsty deserts will be glad; barren lands will celebrate and blossom with flowers.”—Isaiah 35:1, Contemporary English Version.

Provide everyone with meaningful, enjoyable work. “The work of their own hands [God’s] chosen ones will use to the full. They will not toil for nothing.”—Isaiah 65:21-23.

Eliminate disease. “No resident will say: ‘I am sick.’”—Isaiah 33:24.

Set us free from the aging process. “Let his flesh become fresher than in youth; let him return to the days of his youthful vigor.”—Job 33:25.

Bring the dead back to life. “All those in the memorial tombs will hear [Jesus’] voice and come out.”—John 5:28, 29.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/502012121

 

[Slartibartfast]

The point is that the impulse to give comes from the human heart, the individual's heart, rather than a mandate or even expectation. Why, sure, that impulse can move an individual generosity expressed in many ways, but do you donate to state or fed agencies? (No, paying taxes--rendering unto Caesar--doesn't count.)

I disagree. What's happening in your heart is that your "impulse" that you feel is perceived through your moral instincts and that "impulse" is not shared by people who have other moral instincts (and anyone who has some knowledge of moral or evolutionary psychology knows that this "impulse" is not universal or experienced the same way by everyone). I promise you that the "impulse" felt by some isn't individualized but corporate or group based. Because of that, faith is going to be felt and expressed differently. Giving through Caesar totally counts if we simply look at "impulse" as you have presented it and without other qualifiers.

Edit: Here is some research on individual versus social generosity in case you would like to learn more and understand how the "impulse" manifests itself among different types of people:
https://ggsc.berkeley.edu/images/uploads/GGSC-JTF_White_Paper-Generosity-FINAL.pdf

I believe that I will be judged according to what is in my heart, by what motivated me. If I donate to a food bank and the recipient trades the food for crack or if I give money to someone begging who buys cheap wine with it, this is out of my control. I don't think that the judgment of the world, whether my donations "bore fruit," is the point. At all.

I agree with this statement, in part. We are instructed to be wise as wolves and part of that is trying to know outcomes and make wise choices and not simply do good come what may as if you were lobbing some grenade over the fence. If we break down the golden rule for example, if I am stuck in some terrible rut and someone comes along and gives me money that furthers enables me being in that rut, then they have not helped me and they have not done good (and neither have I in such a scenario). That is not how I would want to be treated or to treat another, but rather have actions both be good of intent and result.

Galatians 6:7 - "Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows" <-- Make sure what you sow is good and does not simply feel good.

 

[ataraxia]

The problem with this assertion is, of course, that in the case of welfare, what you are essentially doing is volunteering your neighbor's money to pay for your good deeds.
Charity is good works. Advocating that the government do it is stealing from your neighbor.

Charity has never proven to be anywhere as effective as government safety nets in society. Before Obamacare, 40,000+ Americans were dying every single year due to lack of access to healthcare.

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-world/private-charity-no-match-for-federal-poverty-aid-experts-say/

It's about who we are as a society, even more than as individuals.

 

[Slartibartfast]

@nota bene, I ran out of time on my earlier response and am adding a supplement here. Unfortunately, I couldn't find the original study I was thinking of, so these other links will have to suffice for my argument (which is also why I took so long to reply, I was searching for that research).

Here is another primer on social giving and how it stimulates the same neural reward centers that you reference in terms of "impulse"

https://www.habitatcltregion.org/blog/the-psychology-behind-giving/#:~:text=Empathy:%20The%20human%20capacity%20for,the%20giver%20and%20the%20recipient.

Also:

https://www.mdpi.com/2077-1444/10/2/72#:~:text=It%20is%20said%20that%20taxing%20the%20rich,of%20coercion)%2C%20there%20can%20be%20no%20morality.

Ultimately, if you read it, you will hopefully find that a lot of that "impulse" is governed by social context.

Personally, I don't know if Jesus left "how to give" open because of that (I suspect he did, Him being aware of all types of people and sets of moral instincts) or if it was simply out of context for his ministry given the culture of the day, but we do know he never forbade it (and Give onto Caesar is a totally different topic, which is about loyalty and hierarchy. In that passage, Jesus was making a strong point that he was not a political leader and was not subject to the politics/governmental policies of the day in terms of his ministry in response to priests who were trying to trap Him in a logical conundrum).

 

[Slartibartfast]

Ok, this topic is actually interesting. Psalm 72 pretty much seems to endorse the idea of government spending for the poor. I just took that one back to my discord channel on Christianity to get different perspectives. (This is one of the reasons I love these debates, it helps me see new perspectives in the Bible versus just reading it).

 

[Metanoia]

Of course the Kingdom is 'spiritual'. But why does that take away from the physical? Jesus Christ, the God Man, sits today at the right hand of God. (Heb. 1:3) A Man with a physical body sits at the right hand of God in Heaven. Surely you acknowledge that the Son is 'spiritual'.

There is plenty that the Holy Spirit has told us, in the Bible, about the Kingdom. But you refuse it and attempt to negate it by saying all is 'spiritual'. Which doesn't negate it. If just leaves you in ignorance of what the Kingdom is.

Believe what you wish……you believe in the physical and the material….subject to gravity and time….. Jesus only being able to be able to be in one place at a specific time. Those that get to heaven and can have some time off can decide to drive by Jesus’s house ? And obviously no possibility of Jesus/God/Holy Spirit living within ? Or as a compromise certain times of a 24 day that Jesus is Spirit and other times that He is physical ? It is your understanding of the Kingdom that is ignorance to me…..

 

[nota bene]

@nota bene, I ran out of time on my earlier response and am adding a supplement here. Unfortunately, I couldn't find the original study I was thinking of, so these other links will have to suffice for my argument (which is also why I took so long to reply, I was searching for that research).

Here is another primer on social giving and how it stimulates the same neural reward centers that you reference in terms of "impulse"

https://www.habitatcltregion.org/blog/the-psychology-behind-giving/#:~:text=Empathy:%20The%20human%20capacity%20for,the%20giver%20and%20the%20recipient.

Also:

https://www.mdpi.com/2077-1444/10/2/72#:~:text=It%20is%20said%20that%20taxing%20the%20rich,of%20coercion)%2C%20there%20can%20be%20no%20morality.

Ultimately, if you read it, you will hopefully find that a lot of that "impulse" is governed by social context.

Personally, I don't know if Jesus left "how to give" open because of that (I suspect he did, Him being aware of all types of people and sets of moral instincts) or if it was simply out of context for his ministry given the culture of the day, but we do know he never forbade it (and Give onto Caesar is a totally different topic, which is about loyalty and hierarchy. In that passage, Jesus was making a strong point that he was not a political leader and was not subject to the politics/governmental policies of the day in terms of his ministry in response to priests who were trying to trap Him in a logical conundrum).

I appreciate the time you've spent here in replying.

However, I am as interested as a practicing Christian in how neural reward centers are stimulated as I am in a discussing the atria and ventricles of the heart when discussing the human heart and its impulses. I am not speaking to electricity.

 

[Slartibartfast]

I appreciate the time you've spent here in replying.

However, I am as interested as a practicing Christian in how neural reward centers are stimulated as I am in a discussing the atria and ventricles of the heart when discussing the human heart and its impulses. I am not speaking to electricity.

To each their own however, I find understanding God’s design to be informative for faith. In my view the Christian who is charitable about taxes due to social support is acting in genuine faith that is consistent with scripture as well as the Christian who wishes to express their giving differently.

 

[Lees]

Charity, or any other good works, plays no role in defining a Christian.

(Matt. 26:6-16) (John 12:4-6) Who was concerned about giving to the poor instead of anoting Jesus with oil? Judas Iscariot....the betrayer of Jesus.

So, give to the poor, make yourself feel good, and deny Jesus Christ. And what will God the Father say of you?

Lees

 

[ataraxia]

Charity, or any other good works, plays no role in defining a Christian.

(Matt. 26:6-16) (John 12:4-6) Who was concerned about giving to the poor instead of anoting Jesus with oil? Judas Iscariot....the betrayer of Jesus.

So, give to the poor, make yourself feel good, and deny Jesus Christ. And what will God the Father say of you?

Lees

James 2:26 states, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.“

 

[Lees]

James 2:26 states, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.“

Oh gee, giving to the poor and denying Jesus Christ makes one a real Christian? How silly.

Lees

 

[cAPSLOCK]

Charity, or any other good works, plays no role in defining a Christian.

(Matt. 26:6-16) (John 12:4-6) Who was concerned about giving to the poor instead of anoting Jesus with oil? Judas Iscariot....the betrayer of Jesus.

So, give to the poor, make yourself feel good, and deny Jesus Christ. And what will God the Father say of you?

Lees

First of all, I've enjoyed lurking on you guys' discussion..

I agree with your first paragraph, very strongly, you are not defined as a Christian by your works. In fact, it's anti-Christ to hold this in my opinion.

But there is a list of the fruits of the flesh and the fruits of the Spirit in Corinthians, which clearly shows that through God's work in our salvation, the fruits of love, joy, peace, patience, and so on will be manifest.

And the book of James clearly says that someone without the works has a dead faith.

I believe that book was difficult for some people in the history of the church who wanted it stricken from the canon because that seemed so much to contradict a lot of the other narrative of the New Testament, which is salvation comes by faith alone and through Christ's sacrifice.

But I think the key, at least for me, in understanding that tension is the fact that the works prove that the faith is there in the first place. They are not what causes salvation. But rather are evidence of it.

So, I'm not going to be saved by giving to the poor, and if I do so to impress the religious, I'm not impressing God, but if God's message has truly taken hold in my heart, I'm going to help people when I feel Him prompting me to do it, and not for the approval of man.

Maybe later, if I'm feeling frisky, I will give my opinions on the difference between an individual giving and giving through the state, because I think there are differences. But that's another discussion that is also happening here.

 

[Lees]

Believe what you wish……you believe in the physical and the material….subject to gravity and time….. Jesus only being able to be able to be in one place at a specific time. Those that get to heaven and can have some time off can decide to drive by Jesus’s house ? And obviously no possibility of Jesus/God/Holy Spirit living within ? Or as a compromise certain times of a 24 day that Jesus is Spirit and other times that He is physical ? It is your understanding of the Kingdom that is ignorance to me…..

I believe what the Bible says. Not what I wish. Do you disagree that a Man, Jesus Christ is seated at the right hand of God?

And that Man sits with the Body that was Resurrected by God. Correct? Or do you disagree?

No, your denial of the Kingdom, as presented in Scripture, is the ignorance to you.

Lees

 

[ataraxia]

Oh gee, giving to the poor and denying Jesus Christ makes one a real Christian? How silly.

Lees

No. Watching poor people suffer without helping, and then heartlessly saying that they are just that way and deserve it because they’re just stupid and lazy and should just be left alone to die on the street, while saying you believe in Christ- makes you a hypocrite.

 

[Lees]

No. Watching poor people suffer without helping, and then heartlessly saying that they are just that way and deserve it because they’re just stupid and lazy and should just be left alone to die on the street, while saying you believe in Christ- makes you a hypocrite.

And of course you are the judge of who is a hypocrite. And one who gives to the poor yet denies Jesus Christ, what does that do for him?

And if you follow me, and one day see someone on the street corner, come asking me for money, and I refuse, what do think of me?

Lees

 

[Metanoia]

I believe what the Bible says. Not what I wish. Do you disagree that a Man, Jesus Christ is seated at the right hand of God?

And that Man sits with the Body that was Resurrected by God. Correct? Or do you disagree?

No, your denial of the Kingdom, as presented in Scripture, is the ignorance to you.

I believe in a spiritual kingdom….you believe in a physical and material kingdom….fortunately with the progress of science perhaps your kingdom will be discovered in your lifetime and we can take a plane there together and I will admit that you are correct…..we can both see Jesus sitting there in his chair……my trouble is that I am from Missouri and you have to Show Me…..the God within remains more important to me than the God that is in the far realms of outer space….but, once again, believe what you want…..

 

[Metanoia]

If the world’s most powerful man and the world’s richest man join forces maybe they can find Jesus ? Doesn’t that sound plausible ? Especially with the aid of fundamental evangelicals……

 

[nota bene]

First of all, I've enjoyed lurking on you guys' discussion..

I agree with your first paragraph, very strongly, you are not defined as a Christian by your works. In fact, it's anti-Christ to hold this in my opinion.

But there is a list of the fruits of the flesh and the fruits of the Spirit in Corinthians, which clearly shows that through God's work in our salvation, the fruits of love, joy, peace, patience, and so on will be manifest.

And the book of James clearly says that someone without the works has a dead faith.

I believe that book was difficult for some people in the history of the church who wanted it stricken from the canon because that seemed so much to contradict a lot of the other narrative of the New Testament, which is salvation comes by faith alone and through Christ's sacrifice.

But I think the key, at least for me, in understanding that tension is the fact that the works prove that the faith is there in the first place. They are not what causes salvation. But rather are evidence of it.

So, I'm not going to be saved by giving to the poor, and if I do so to impress the religious, I'm not impressing God, but if God's message has truly taken hold in my heart, I'm going to help people when I feel Him prompting me to do it, and not for the approval of man.

Maybe later, if I'm feeling frisky, I will give my opinions on the difference between an individual giving and giving through the state, because I think there are differences. But that's another discussion that is also happening here.

Well, of course, there is a difference, so I hope you'll be feeling frisky soon!

 

[Lees]

I believe in a spiritual kingdom….you believe in a physical and material kingdom….fortunately with the progress of science perhaps your kingdom will be discovered in your lifetime and we can take a plane there together and I will admit that you are correct…..we can both see Jesus sitting there in his chair……my trouble is that I am from Missouri and you have to Show Me…..the God within remains more important to me than the God that is in the far realms of outer space….but, once again, believe what you want…..

Well, from your answer, you don't believe Jesus Christ is bodily, sitting at the right hand of God.

Why do you need to be shown? The only reason is that you don't believe the Bible. You realized that is what you just said. Just like the atheist says....show me, the Bible means nothing.

No, I don't believe what I want. I believe the Bible. You have admitted you believe what you want, irregardless of what the Bible says.

Lees

 

[ataraxia]

And one who gives to the poor yet denies Jesus Christ, what does that do for him?

Keeps him from being a jerk.

You think Jesus just likes brown-nosing jerks?

And of course you are the judge of who is a hypocrite. And one who gives to the poor yet denies Jesus Christ, what does that do for him?

No. Jesus is, and he is very clear. Notice how there is nothing in here about who grovels before him the most, but what they do for the poor:

"31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,
36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?
39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me."

So what does he say he will do for heartless groveling brown-nosers?

"41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,
43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
-Matthew 25: 31-46

 

[ataraxia]

No, I don't believe what I want. I believe the Bible.

Nah it's clear you just believe what you want. The Bible says people who don't care about the poor and think they will get in to heaven just by being brown nosers are going to a very bad place.

 

[Metanoia]

No, I don't believe what I want. I believe the Bible. You have admitted you believe what you want, irregardless of what the Bible says.

It is so simple……what you actually believe is your interpretation of the Bible…..which is totally literal……you are ‘leaning into your own limited understanding’…..just not comprehending the parables, for example, which the Bible spoke of. You deny the spiritual aspect in favor of the literal and by doing so you commit the one unforgivable sin. The obvious ‘errors’ of a literal reading of the Bible are there for your benefit…..and that is to seek spiritual knowledge which trumps literal knowledge. Tell us again why Adam, the ‘first’ man was created only 6,000 years ago when all credible evidence refutes that by thousands of years.

 

[Metanoia]

The litmus test for believers: Mark 16:17-18…..please share your home videos……