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Train Wreck: Continued

George_Washington

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Technocratic_Utilitarian said:
Who cares if they fufill a need. THere is no teleology in nature. They don't have to serve a purpouse. Purpouse servering != moral, good, or bad. Playing hockey doesn't serve a purpouse for special survival either. This is an irrelevant concept.

Hockey and other sports are essential to man's survival because they give us a little thing called EXERCISE and keep us from becoming unhealthy and over weight. They also teach kids and people how to work together as a team. Physical fitness is very, very important to our survival.
 

Columbusite

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Busta said:
I, also, could not support morality seaming form an imaginary being. That's why I base my morality on an actual being: God.

Crack babies and homosexuality sher a very general commonality in that they are both personal flaws and limitations.

You loose me with the whole "!=..." thing. I have no idea what that is.

Playing Hockey serves a purpose to the species in that commercial sport produces allot of money and, thus, is good for our economy. The health of our economy dictates everything from taxes collected (which results in state funded medical heath care and other social fail-safes) to scientific research and development (at the very least, you have to pay to keep the lights and refrigerators on).

The attributes of an individual player will attract mates, thus ensuring the survival of that Hockey player's genetic line.

Oh well. Like the name of the thread says..."Train Wreck: Continued".

Our laws must be constitutional and if they are not they must be made so. Marriage must be allowed for gays. This is not a theocracy. Our laws are not (shouldn't be that is, but that's what we are correcting) based on the laws of your God or anyone's God (not even my superior one :lol: ).
 

Busta

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Posted by Technocratic_Utilitarian;
"Give one ONE good OBJECTIVE reason why I ought to support your God, and not you mine."
Heh, that's like a trick question.
You don't have a God, remember?
 

Columbusite

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George_Washington said:
Not true. Some people become homosexuals after becoming sexually abused. This is a common known fact in the medical and psychiatric community.

Oh really...http://www.healthyminds.org/glbissues.cfm (American Psychiatric Association)

"no specific psychosocial or family dynamic cause for homosexuality has been identified, including histories of childhood sexual abuse." (bold mine)

http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/answers.html#whatcauses (American Psychological Association)
 
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Busta

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"I don't believe God exists. Why should I take the moral system of something that has no evidence for its existence?"
The part of you that requires scientific evidence in order to observe its existence will have to be altered in-order for you to have faith. That alteration is not something that I can do.

"If you want to use that as your personal moral guide, fine, but you cannot force it on others....."
Ya, I can; at least in so far as any law could be "forced" on any citizen. It's called "voting". In fact, the entire purpose voting is so that individual citizens can have a say as to what should and should not be allowed. Since the "why" is not recorded, I can have any "why" that I please.

"....because it's not universalizable"
While religion is not, the Creator, its self, is.
It's a matter of personal faith and understanding.

"You must believe in the deity."
Too oppose gay 'marriage? No.
If I had a purely economic reasoning, then I mite oppose gay 'marriage based on that. There is no religious or theological requirement for opposition to any given piece of legislation. That's the beauty of voting: *why* is not recorded. Only "yes" or "no".

"I shouldn't have to follow your god's rules any more than you ought to have to follow Shinto morality."
Then don't.

"Everyone thinks his God is real and his neighbor's false."
You're leaving out another approach: Everyone knows the same God, but they view Him and understand Him in very different ways. For example: Jewdeo-Christianity and Islam both worship the same God, but to look at it today, you would never know it.

"The difference is that crack babies are mentally deficient and unhealthy; homosexuals can lead very healthy lives, and many of them are extremely intelligent, productive members of society. Furthermore, most crackbabies are "created" via improper, criminal conduct. Homosexuals aren't."
I am aware of the world of differences between the two. That's why I said "very general commonality".

"Playing Hockey also wastes time that could be put to better use somewhere else. It's a diversion. People should be working, not playing. If people worked more and played less, more would get done."
From the Contractors who build and maintain the coliseums and the financially benefiting transportation, catering and lodging businesses, to the advertisers of products of which the fans perchis at your local department or retail store (to say nothing of the additional payrole that said store could use to employ more people when their sales are up), I hate to say it (because I hate sports) but commercial Hockey is good for the economy because it produces Jobs.
Without it, fewer people would have work and less would get don.

"Still, why does the "attraction" of mates equate to morality?"
Don't change the subject. We're discussing rather or not to support gay 'marriage legislation, not making moral judgments about why people are attracted to whom they are so inclined to be.

"Since Homosexuals make up an extremely small global population, there is no reason to fear that "homosexuals" will make reproduction of the race impossible"
Fear, being a morally based emotion, I did not mention.
Likewise, reproductive abilities of the Human race, I made no issue of.

"Why? First, there is zero evidence homosexuality is learned as a practice. You cannot "create" new homosexuals other than by having them biologically. Whether or not you allow them to marry has zero impact on the production of new homosexuals. Therefore, the argument from Population need has no merit."
Agreed. The population argument has no merit.

"If they marry, nothing happens to the population.
If they don't marry, nothing happens to the population."

The path of hypocrisy would, indeed, do something to the population....but you will have to open your self to faith in order to accept an example.

"Homosexuals will always exist..."
Yes. That is just a fact of life. There is no denying it.

"...unless you propose we exterminate them all because they are a drain on society."
I'm sorry, did you read something about Army-of-God in my profile or something.
A sinner I am. A Nazi I am Not.
 

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Columbusite said:
Oh really...http://www.healthyminds.org/glbissues.cfm (American Psychiatric Association)

"no specific psychosocial or family dynamic cause for homosexuality has been identified, including histories of childhood sexual abuse." (bold mine)

That doesn't contradict what I said. I have a cousin who is a psychologist who counsels youths and he's told me some of them who have been sexually abused often thought they were gay or lesbian but in fact they were just confused by the sexual abuse.


I don't see anything on that site that contradicts what I said.

Also just because those sites claim that being gay/lesbian isn't a choice, doesn't mean that there aren't psychologists out there that do think it's a choice.
 
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Columbusite

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Busta said:
"If you want to use that as your personal moral guide, fine, but you cannot force it on others....."
Ya, I can; at least in so far as any law could be "forced" on any citizen. It's called "voting". In fact, the entire purpose voting is so that individual citizens can have a say as to what should and should not be allowed. Since the "why" is not recorded, I can have any "why" that I please.

Don't be a retard. Laws must abide by our Constitution. You telling me people should have been able to vote on interracial marriage?
 

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Columbusite said:
Don't be a retard. Laws must abide by our Constitution. You telling me people should have been able to vote on interracial marriage?

Oh no....name calling.....Columbusite's starting to crack.

Laws must abide by our Constitution, yes. And what does our Constitution abide by?

People should have been able to vote on inter racial marriage, yes. My point of view would have been a strong argument supporting inter-racial marriage.
 

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George_Washington said:
That doesn't contradict what I said. I have a cousin who is a psychologist who counsels youths and he's told me some of them who have been sexually abused often thought they were gay or lesbian but in fact they were just confused by the sexual abuse.



You said that "Some people become homosexuals after becoming sexually abused.This is a common known fact in the medical and psychiatric community."

"no specific psychosocial or family dynamic cause for homosexuality has been identified, including histories of childhood sexual abuse." - APA

It is indeed contradictory. There is nothing there that even suggests that sexual abuse is the cause of "some". Yet your cousin says that was the precise cause in some cases? The APA says there is nothing specific known to be the cause, but your cousin seems to think otherwise. I'm going with the APA on this one.

I don't see anything on that site that contradicts what I said.

Just FYI.

Also just because those sites claim that being gay/lesbian isn't a choice, doesn't mean that there aren't psychologists out there that do think it's a choice.

Of course, but these are the largest top mental health organizations in the country. What they say on the matter carries much weight as far as I am concerned. You can find some psychologist that'll agree with you if you seek them out. Of course, if they advocate religious conversion as a "cure" they're a quack doctor pure and simple.
 

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Busta said:
Oh no....name calling.....Columbusite's starting to crack.

I didn't name call. I said "don't be" not "you're a retard". I hope you'll hold up in the next post. :lol:

Laws must abide by our Constitution, yes. And what does our Constitution abide by?

The Constitution itself I guess...I really can't answer that since our Constitution is what we use as the basis of government and law. It really doesn't have to abide by anything. It's just a bad question.

People should have been able to vote on inter racial marriage, yes. My point of view would have been a strong argument supporting inter-racial marriage.

No they shouldn't. The 14th amendment states that all citizens are to have the law applied to them equally. The Constitution is NON-NEGOCIABLE. Otherwise, we would have a democracy where the majority rules everytime. We don't live in a democracy, we live in a federal republic (democratic yes, a democracy? No.), but not a democracy. If we did, there would be no point in having a Constitution and Bill of Rights if you could just vote them away. The Founding Fathers were much smarter than to simply set up a democracy. The Constitution is an amazing, beautiful piece of work. I suggest reading it sometime and getting an understanding of the basic principles this country was founded on. You'll gain a great sense of appreciation for it.
 

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This is pointless. Let Busta hide beind his wall of ignorance. You cannot make someone think something. This debate is over as far as I am concerned. I have nothing to worry about anyway, since (thank the godless), we have a system of checks and balances in which religious people can talk a lot, but do little long term damage. To them, things like law, justice, and ethics are meaningless when it comes to the giant sky-pixi.

So Columbusite, don't let him ride you to the looney-bin. You won't convince him any more than you can convince a serial killer what he's doing is wrong. Just imagine that Busta is Gasey. Let the Fundie be.
 
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So here again I see the opportunistic argument that being gay is a choice, but fortunately, we have moved beyond, and you guys mutually shut it down. However, the argument of utility seems to be coming to the fore again. There is no basis for arguing the utility of homosexuality being that we are not a utilitarian society (that one was for you busta). We are a pluralistic and inclusive society, as set up in the Bill of Rights and the following amendments. Busta, you must also recognize the separation between church and state, as set up in the very first amendment. Therefore, any such notion that marriage (as a contract set up by law) is a recognition of a higher union ordained by a higher power ( as stated, a Creator Force, or faith in a creator force), is false under the tenets of the Canon of Law. This is a non-issue.

And the idea that there is an elevation of the homosexual union by allowing marriage is a misnomer. There is no elevation, only inclusion in the contract set aside for two loving adults of like mind who wish to bond themselves legally and publicly. Exclusion of any two people, no matter race or gender or sexual orientation, is discrimination in its purest form.

I do not wish to change the spiritual definition of marriage...only the legal inclusion. Let the churches have their rites (and as a matter of course, Rights), discriminatory or not. Let the law be even across the board for all.
 

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Technocratic_Utilitarian said:
This is pointless. Let Busta hide beind his wall of ignorance. You cannot make someone think something. This debate is over as far as I am concerned. I have nothing to worry about anyway, since (thank the godless), we have a system of checks and balances in which religious people can talk a lot, but do little long term damage. To them, things like law, justice, and ethics are meaningless when it comes to the giant sky-pixi.

So Columbusite, don't let him ride you to the looney-bin. You won't convince him any more than you can convince a serial killer what he's doing is wrong. Just imagine that Busta is Gasey. Let the Fundie be.

I see a differen view of busta...knowing him from other threads. Busta has stances that he believes as truly as you believe yours. He argues from logic and faith. You may undermine logic with logic, but faith is not to be toyed with. You would have to first prove his faith to be unfounded, and by its very definition, faith will not be undone. I think, rather than undermining his credibility with an attack on his faith, it would be best to appeal to his sense of reason with an unwavering devotion to logic and acceptance of his faith. If he did not feel a slight tug toward your opinion, why else would he be bothering to debate you. Of course, the same is true of you. So, in the spirit of exchange of free thought, continue this discourse, if not for your own gratification, then for my entertainment and added knowledge! :2razz:

Busta, keep fighting your good fight, but, I know one day you will be swayed to my side...even if its on our way to hell :party
 

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If he did not feel a slight tug toward your opinion, why else would he be bothering to debate you. Of course, the same is true of you. So, in the spirit of exchange of free thought, continue this discourse, if not for your own gratification, then for my entertainment and added knowledge!


I think he's just egging me on to irritate me, not to really be swayed. I think that because I do the same thing to others. I have no more ammo. He's like one of those martian tripods. I can shoot nukes all day at him and it won't get through, because he has the magic god-shield. It's logically impenetrable.
 

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Technocratic_Utilitarian said:
I think he's just egging me on to irritate me, not to really be swayed. I think that because I do the same thing to others. I have no more ammo. He's like one of those martian tripods. I can shoot nukes all day at him and it won't get through, because he has the magic god-shield. It's logically impenetrable.

Nah, the only reason anyone raises an objection rather than silently sitting by is because they want to be convinced. Dont look at it as an issue of faith, look at it as an issue of logic...and I know busta from other threads...he is swayed by logic if the logic is right...find that opening and seize on it. I think you just have to find the legal argument...for truly, other than legal discourse, there is no other debate. And, furthermore, there is no recourse for him or you but to argue this legally.
 

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"The Constitution itself I guess...I really can't answer that since our Constitution is what we use as the basis of government and law. It really doesn't have to abide by anything. It's just a bad question."
The Constitution abides by "We The People", an element of it's self, yes, but "We The People" is so much more than that at the same time.

What do us People abide by?

"No they shouldn't. The 14th amendment states that all citizens are to have the law applied to them equally. The Constitution is NON-NEGOCIABLE. Otherwise, we would have a democracy where the majority rules everytime. We don't live in a democracy, we live in a federal republic (democratic yes, a democracy? No.), but not a democracy. If we did, there would be no point in having a Constitution and Bill of Rights if you could just vote them away. The Founding Fathers were much smarter than to simply set up a democracy. The Constitution is an amazing, beautiful piece of work. I suggest reading it sometime and getting an understanding of the basic principles this country was founded on. You'll gain a great sense of appreciation for it."
You make a good point. I'll concede that one to you.
If The People do not like what the Constitution says about a given issue, and Judges have ruled according to what the Constitution says, then The people can pressure their representative to start a piece of legislation, even an Amendment, which would be in line with what The People see as right and just. Due Possess will play its self out from that point.
 

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Technocratic_Utilitarian said:
This is nonsense. Homosexuality isn't only natural among homosexuals any more than sickel-cell anemia is only natural among people with sickel-cell disease. Homosexuality and sickel-cell syndrom are natural regardless of what group has them; they are natural period. Anyone that has it is simply getting something natural.

Yes, maybe my wording there was poor. What I mean to be saying is that homosexual behaviour is natural - not unexpected or surprising - among homosexuals just as out-of-control drinking is natural for the alcoholic (even though no partner is required) ... or as you have mentioned, just as its own symptoms are quite natural among human beings suffering sickel-cell anemia. However, none of those manifestations are "normal among human beings", as such. Rather, each is abnormal or "outside the norm" within society overall.

Should homosexuals be accepted within society?

Certainly so, and just as the alcoholic or anyone else should be. However, that acceptance does *not* mean each and every human being's "natural behaviour" of whatever type must also be accepted by everyone else as normal and/or "just because".

Should homosexuals be allowed to marry?

Sure ... but only in complete candor and to someone of the opposite sex, I say.
 
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Technocratic_Utilitarian said:
I think he's just egging me on to irritate me, not to really be swayed. I think that because I do the same thing to others. I have no more ammo. He's like one of those martian tripods. I can shoot nukes all day at him and it won't get through, because he has the magic god-shield. It's logically impenetrable.

For what it's worth, I can assure you that I am not just egging you on. I do not intend to egg you an at all.

See my sig: "One only becomes mad at others for what they, them selves, are guilty of."

Do you realize how literal "the magic God shield" is? Take a look at Ephesians 6:10-18. This passage describes the Navigation, Ablative armor, Propultion, the "Magical God-shield", Intrusion Protection Software, Tactical Communication System and Primary Weapon of my martian tripod.

As a tangent, did you ever see Independence Day? Those alien ships are a good example of how the kingdom of God may look when it enters the atmosphere, as well as being a good representation of it's physical size.

"I can shoot nukes all day at him and it won't get through, because he has the magic god-shield."
That makes my day.
You're awesome.
 

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Columbusite said:
You said that "Some people become homosexuals after becoming sexually abused.This is a common known fact in the medical and psychiatric community."

"no specific psychosocial or family dynamic cause for homosexuality has been identified, including histories of childhood sexual abuse." - APA

Sigh. That doesn't mean people can't become confused. It just means that they don't know if there is any one single, dominant cause of homosexuality. It means in general sexual abuse doesn't cause homosexuality but that does not rule out the possiblity of a single individual being confused, nor does it rule out that sexual abuse can cause other things, too. In psychology you have to treat each patient as an individual. If a patient comes to you and says he's gay and was also sexually abused, a good psychologist wouldn't rule out the possiblity that he could be confused.
 

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George_Washington said:
Sigh. That doesn't mean people can't become confused. It just means that they don't know if there is any one single, dominant cause of homosexuality. It means in general sexual abuse doesn't cause homosexuality but that does not rule out the possiblity of a single individual being confused, nor does it rule out that sexual abuse can cause other things, too. In psychology you have to treat each patient as an individual. If a patient comes to you and says he's gay and was also sexually abused, a good psychologist wouldn't rule out the possiblity that he could be confused.

The confusion found between "real" homosexuality and every other possable manifestation of homosexual behaviors, is why I preface my context appropriate references with "real".

I knew of this guy in Greeley Co. who was just a normal guy until his wife died. After her death, he started dressing in drag and having sex with men. He also changed his legal name to Jennifer.

Unlike "real" transsexuals, who are born anatomicaly male yet physiologicaly female, this guy was just confused.

I think that you just need to clarify the causal effect of the homosexual behaviors that you refer to, when you speak of homosexuality.
 

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Busta said:
The Constitution abides by "We The People", an element of it's self, yes, but "We The People" is so much more than that at the same time.

What do us People abide by?

We The People, by being citizens of the USA, have chosen to abide by the Constitution as any good American would. I see what you're saying and, yes, if enough people become anti-American and hate what our country was founded on we can rip up our Constitution. Of course, there are those who wrap themselves in the flag while wishing for our government to trample the Constitution.


You make a good point. I'll concede that one to you.
If The People do not like what the Constitution says about a given issue, and Judges have ruled according to what the Constitution says, then The people can pressure their representative to start a piece of legislation, even an Amendment, which would be in line with what The People see as right and just. Due Possess will play its self out from that point.

I'm glad I was able to clearly explain everything to you there. So yes, as I said above. If enough people are dumb enough to choose to overthrow our democratic republic for a democracy where no matter what, the majority rules, then they will reap what they sow (as the majority will. And for those who were smart enough to be against it, I say fight or get the hell outta there. Our Constitution doesn't allow "The People" to always have their way since history has taught us over and over that the majority is wrong about so many things. Our Constitution stresses the equality of all it's citizens, not most It is quite obvious you have a great disdain for our Constitution when one ties what you say here to earlier posts. So have you held onto your anti-American views (and no, I'm not throwing around names that are unwarranted since you stated earlier that we should disregard our Constitution in favor of what the majority wants, which is...well... anti-American by definition, or is that un-American? Well, either way it's not good) or do you feel that we must uphold the Constitution and what it stands for. And no, that doesn't include working within the confines of the Constitution with the aim to destroy it. Oh, and I must say tossing out our Constitution isn't a very conservative action, now is it? Although it would be evil. ;)
 

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Technocratic_Utilitarian said:
This is pointless. Let Busta hide beind his wall of ignorance. You cannot make someone think something. This debate is over as far as I am concerned. I have nothing to worry about anyway, since (thank the godless), we have a system of checks and balances in which religious people can talk a lot, but do little long term damage. To them, things like law, justice, and ethics are meaningless when it comes to the giant sky-pixi.

So Columbusite, don't let him ride you to the looney-bin. You won't convince him any more than you can convince a serial killer what he's doing is wrong. Just imagine that Busta is Gasey. Let the Fundie be.

I know what you're saying. However, my aim isn't to change his mind, but to expose his views for what they are. If he does "see the light", that would be great, but I'm not betting on it.
 

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George_Washington said:
Sigh. That doesn't mean people can't become confused. It just means that they don't know if there is any one single, dominant cause of homosexuality. It means in general sexual abuse doesn't cause homosexuality but that does not rule out the possiblity of a single individual being confused, nor does it rule out that sexual abuse can cause other things, too. In psychology you have to treat each patient as an individual. If a patient comes to you and says he's gay and was also sexually abused, a good psychologist wouldn't rule out the possiblity that he could be confused.

I see what you're saying in that it could be a factor. I just wanted to make it very clear that there is no cause that can be pinpointed as of yet. Confusion or not, choice or not, that doesn't change the fact that gay marriage should be legal.
 

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Columbusite said:
I see what you're saying in that it could be a factor. I just wanted to make it very clear that there is no cause that can be pinpointed as of yet. Confusion or not, choice or not, that doesn't change the fact that gay marriage should be legal.

I disagree.
Once the caws of homosexuality is identified, we can treat and eventually cure it.
Homosexuality is an individual flaw and limitation to be overcome, not surrendered to.
 
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