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Train Wreck: Continued

Technocratic_Utilitarian said:
It's not an individual "flaw" that has to be fixed. Now, believing in a magical sky-pixi---that's a character flaw, and pretty serious to boot.

Believing in a magical sky-pixie is a matter of personal faith. If that is the path that one chooses, so be it.

This reminds me of Tad. Tad was a friend of mine in highschool who worshiped a dragon pantheon. He had it all spelled out: names, purposes, representations, histories....etc. Personally, I saw his dragon pantheon as a modified version if the Norse pantheon; who I believe are composed of Nefilim. Though I was a Christian and he was a...well, I don't know what he called himself.... we had many interesting conversations about religion and faith.

Besides, no one single religion or point of view has it exactly right. One may need to concider a more abstract understanding of our Creator in order to find what they are looking for.
 
Canuck said:
One day, perhaps ... we may advance the cause for all human beings. Mabe along the way, we will teach religions to allow their dogma to lift to more godly level .so no human beings can be left in the cold.
sickness be it mental or addiction in it's source, shouldn't exile people from the human race

... and if that ever happens, one of its core dynamics will be that of mutual vulnerability openly shared. But for just as long as any individual or group insists that his, her or their particular deviation from the norm is acceptable, then he, she or they essentially lock themselves out of the equation.
 
Busta said:
I will rethink how I use those words.

To me, supporting gay 'marriage legislation is the act of supporting same-sex marital-relationships. If I oppose an act/lifestyle, then supporting the legalization of that act/lifestyle seems hypocritical. I ask myself, "why would I enable something of which I object to?"


Ok, why do you object to the gay lifestyle? We have already established that homosexuality is normal in the natural world. Why do gay people deserve to be objected to?

At the heart of it, it is probably about religion.


Duke
 
Canuck said:
it's not your fault
you were born with that and that only doctrine
you were dropped from the human race by religion's dogma

:confused:
So, what's your point?


Duke
 
Duke said:
Ok, why do you object to the gay lifestyle? We have already established that homosexuality is normal in the natural world. Why do gay people deserve to be objected to?

At the heart of it, it is probably about religion.


Duke

See posts 1 and 43.
 
The fact that so much mass murder is couched in religious phraseology is the most egregious example, but God filters on the way we think and act have prevented us from even attempting to figure out what we're doing to ourselves.

True people, with real hearts, have less a say in the the issues that affect them than ever before, owing to the lifelong media mindlock that limits their choices, the very same formula religion uses to condition the populace into conforming behavior, in order to conceal the fact that every death in warfare has been the murder of a brother or sister.

In order to treat anybody honestly, you have to treat everybody honestly. How is it that we have political leaders who treat nobody honestly, not even themselves? There can only be one conclusion. We are not being honest with ourselves.

The finest things we say are totally dependent on our ability to listen. We postpone our own gratification because our friends need us, and the deal is always worth it. What harmful childhood injury, what hateful, xenophobic creed warped these wealthy white men into twisted, thoughtless butchers interested only in the number of zeroes following a digit?

The more likely - and unpalatable - story is that these men are just like us - busting (as in "busting a move") their bogus rationales on the world simply because they can.

I don't want to be confused with those who are addicted to disaster news as some kind of horror film, people whose minds are glazed over in apoplectic stupefaction at the unending succession of atrocities that bedazzle our attention spans and numb our senses. Though I am stricken by the horror of what surrounds us, I try to remember information is nothing without context, and in the barrage of daily revelations from the cannibals' corporate spin machine we lose sight of the really important stories in the ceaseless cacophony of crises. Downing Street. This is the story that proved the American people are cruel, heartless idiots, out to destroy themselves, and everybody else.

The nightmare murder machine is not going to be defanged overnight. I myself have been contemplating what society will be like AFTER Armageddon, but, of course, being a pampered child of American affluence, I simply can't, so I probably won't survive.

But more and more I find the absence of basic information in the minds of most people, especially young ones. So I'm starting to think in terms of useful information that we should try to retain and spread around after human society has been destroyed. Here's what I came up with ...

How to cure every problem the world faces, in one, three-world sentence.

"Fix the bridges."

Life is a bridge in time from nonexistence to infinity, with this too short organic animation we call our lifetimes coming in between and providing the roadway for our journey. It's not about the origin or the destination, it's about the trip, the search, and what you do with it. THAT is the universe. It's a bridge from what was to what will be, and we are, among all the critters in existence, among the selected few to witness this complex drama of what actually is transpiring right in front of our bewildered eyes.

And what a pretty bridge it is. Prettier than the Golden Gate. My bridge spans from my grandfather's horse-drawn memories to being able to send this story to Chennai in 15 seconds. In the long passage through this unfolding path over troubled water, I have had the good fortune to be able to discern the patterns of how we deceive ourselves into thinking that we're really doing something that we're not.

Some people appoint themselves herders and create thoughtforms that the rest of us blindly follow, the urge to merge with the herd being much stronger than we realize. Humans are party animals, but we're also groupies. We like to be together, and who can blame us, because it can be so much fun. A recurring theme of human civilization is that good ideas, that is to say functional and successful strategies for human happiness, tend to start out good but then turn bad when those who maintain the legends decide their own personal success is more important than the success of the mission. Can you say Roman Catholic Church, oppressor of Galileo, which still puts the holy blindfold on our vision?

But THAT bridge - the solution everyone finds (or doesn't find) to the worrisome problem of their transitory and temporary status on this plane of existence - is simply a matter of personal choice. I don't care what religion people use to rationalize their existential dilemma as long as I don't see it hurting people, like I see with Christianity, Judaism and Islam all chanting, among bleeding bodies in the dust, that their team is better, and that the others should be killed if they don't agree.

Wouldn't you agree that humanity would be much better off without this childish arrogance? Poisonous parochial petulance ... in the truest sense.

As a bridge's foundation is firmly planted in the terrain it seeks to overtravel, so the phrase "fix the bridges" is a resonant mantra that applies to all levels of human endeavor, and is an obvious prescription for ailments that adversely affect everyone in all situations. As a reflexive default mechanism response to adversity, it's not bad. It minimizes hard feelings. A woman taught me that.

Political reality has always revolved around control of valuable commodities, those items in the world that through trade are converted to currency and thereby create power, a psychological fuel that through the tangible energy of the ability to buy things accrues social hegemony to its user. All the other things in life that we use to gauge the success or failure of a single life are controlled by one's ability to wheel through this world in a competent and comfortable fashion. Money is motor oil to the engine of our social lives. Not so odd wars should be fought over oil. But it is a bit over the top that money should have become God. Then again, maybe it always was.

All people have an aura, an electric perceptual field, that extends out from them about four feet. From that realization are magic steps to the future, a whole new way of life as odd to us as shopping malls would be to Australopithicenes (Lucy's tribe of four-footers in the Olduvai Gorge two million years ago), out there waiting to be discovered. First rule to be implemented: mandatory courtesy at the principal point of interface in recognition of the bond we share with all life. If you don't do that, it should be obvious to everyone that you simply don't know what you're doing.

And that your behavior is dangerous to others (this applies to all religious zealots; excessive religious zeal, of course, being an obsessive-compulsive disorder).

Or that you're here for some other reason than to be a decent, honorable human being. Though inequity makes thieves of us all, trust me when I say the last thought you will ever have will be complicated by all the things you stole, and all the horrors you chose to overlook.

Fix the bridges. A simple step. Our true task as a species. A much better idea than piling up toys to see who can be the first one dead. If we fix the bridges, we'll always have something to eat, and friends who want to see us.

It's time to stop treating the world as a business, and start treating it as our family, because it is.

The minute you are polite to someone, it greatly reduces the chance you will murder that person.

All those innocent people have died because we all insist on living the lie that we have created for our world, and we kill people to prove the lie is true.

***

I know this would be a tidy ending to this story, but permit me just one more, not too cloying attempt at what I'm trying to convey. A long time ago I used to know this cantankerous Mayan philosopher who insisted humanity's fate all depended on the song it sang, and that very soon, when the 30,000 year long Mayan calendar came to an end (now only seven years from now), humanity as a single voice would be required to sing a song that would signal larger, more advanced civilizations that we were ready for introduction into the galactic community.

I want you to ponder what is happening in the world, consider the things we talk about, and then take a stab at predicting what kind of song the rest of the universe is hearing from Planet Earth. I tend to think of the Jimi Hendrix version of the American national anthem, as poignant and horrifying as anything the devil himself could compose in the bowels of Hell.

To say the very least, it is a song that would not attract decent friends. In fact, if you conducted a poll of all the animal species on this planet, guess who would get voted off the island?

But one thing is certain: We all will be required to sing that song. What kind of song will it be?


* From 'An Afternoon With Eustace Mullins'
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/07/268064.shtml

John Kaminski is a writer who lives on the Gulf Coast of Florida, who after sixty years has regrettably come to the conclusion that he lives in a country that has broken every promise it ever made to anyone, and continues to do so. http://www.johnkaminski.com/

What Song Do You Sing
 
leejosepho said:
... and if that ever happens, one of its core dynamics will be that of mutual vulnerability openly shared. But for just as long as any individual or group insists that his, her or their particular deviation from the norm is acceptable, then he, she or they essentially lock themselves out of the equation.

The Equation, is what is pushed on us, it is not our choice in reality .Very few choose an equaiton when we are born the curse is cast in stone.
It is thrust upon them at birth ,based on dogmas ,traditions,ETC... some never are strong enough to escape it's cluches,taught to them from their parents , the schools teach (60%politcally correct agendas) Religions,the ones that do escape ,
are marginalized for being free !
when it's time to sing the song ,what is our song that we have made for ourselves.

a few words from DYLAN sums up what song we collectively sing

I had a woman down in Alabama,
She was a backwoods girl, but she sure was realistic,
She said, "Boy, without a doubt, have to quit your mess and straighten out,
You could die down here, be just another accident statistic."
There's a slow, slow train comin' up around the bend.

All that foreign oil controlling American soil,
Look around you, it's just bound to make you embarrassed.
Sheiks walkin' around like kings, wearing fancy jewels and nose rings,
Deciding America's future from Amsterdam and to Paris
And there's a slow, slow train comin' up around the bend.

Man's ego is inflated, his laws are outdated, they don't apply no more,
You can't rely no more to be standin' around waitin'
In the home of the brave, Jefferson turnin' over in his grave,
Fools glorifying themselves, trying to manipulate Satan
And there's a slow, slow train comin' up around the bend.

Big-time negotiators, false healers and woman haters,
Masters of the bluff and masters of the proposition
But the enemy I see wears a cloak of decency,
All non-believers and men stealers talkin' in the name of religion
And there's a slow, slow train comin' up around the bend.

People starving and thirsting, grain elevators are bursting
Oh, you know it costs more to store the food than it do to give it.
They say lose your inhibitions, follow your own ambitions,
They talk about a life of brotherly love, show me someone who knows how to
live it. There's a slow, slow train comin' up around the bend.
 
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"Man's unique design sets us apart from all other animals by enabling and propelling us to overcome the inherent flaws and limitations of the animal kingdom."

Homosexuality is not a limitaton unless you let it limit you, and it is not necessarily a flaw. Man does not have a unique design past the extra brain power.


"One of the attributes of Man's design that serves us to overcome the inherent flaws and limitations of the animal kingdom is our unique ability to call on the Name of the Creator-Force. One of the tools afforded to Man to assist Man in subduing primitive instinct and establishing Man's Dominion over the Earth is Marriage: A special relationship forged by the Name of the Creator-Force."

What is this "call on the Name of the Creator Force"? As in religion? Don't make me laugh. This is what it all boils down to for you, isn't it religion? Special relationship, from religon? Too bad, you made me laugh.

"Other animals may form life-long bonds and raise offspring together, but they can not forge that relationship by the Name of the Creator-Force and deliberately value and persue that relationship above all others. They do what they do by instinct, nothing more."

I can't control the laughter!!! Creator Force!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Seriously, you think that the government should have a law based on your little "Creator Force"???

"A life-long, monogamous relationship between a heterosexual man and woman, who bear and raise children, but who never Marry, does not posses the same value as a similar but Married couple. This is because the unmarried couple, by choosing not too forge their relationship by the Name of the Creator-Force, are doing nothing different then what is found in the animal kingdom."

No, they do not posses the same value because they do not get the special conditions provided by the law. That is what we are talking about, facts, not your hilarious "Creator Force". Animals do not get the special privileges. You seem to base you opion on some religious thing that you call the "Creator Force". Religion. Ever heard of The Seperation of Church and State?

"A life-long, monogamous relationship between two men or two women, who posses and raise children, and legally 'marry, does not posses the same value as an opposite-sex, Married couple. This is because the same-sex couple, by not being able to forge their relationship by the Name of the Creator-Force, are doing nothing different then what is found in the animal kingdom."

OH FOR CRYING OUT LOUD STOP IT WITH THE "CREATOR FORCE STUFF!!!
MY LUNGS ARE BURSTING!!!
This is again based on religion, which stays seperate from law. You see, law is based on LOGIC, while religon is based on ANYTHING BUT.

"The life-long, monogamous relationships of a heterosexual man and multiple women, who bear and raise children, and are legally 'married to each other, do not posses the same value as a 1 man and 1 woman, Married couple's relationship. This is because the man and his harem, by not being able to forge their relationship by the Name of the Creator-Force, are doing nothing different then what is found in the animal kingdom.
(Too be specific, the *first* man-woman Marriage is legitimate, while each of the man's relationships with each woman added after the first is Adultery, and the women's marital relationships with eachother are Adultery and Homosexual.)"

Sure, I will take that, but I will still laugh at that "Creator Force" junk.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!


"Homosexuality, being a variation, is not a part of Man's unique design that sets us apart from all other animals. Homosexuality is one of the inherent flaws and limitations of the animal kingdom, of which, Man's unique design propells us to cure and correct, not surrender too."

Variation. What an unfair term. Is black skin a "variation"? Is red hair a "variation"? Is green eyes a "variation"? As you can see, we do not have a design, per se. Homosexuality is not something to "cure", or "correct". No need to surrender, it is not like gay people are takeing over the world.


"If we endorse and promot homosexuality as a preferred, elevated and superior relationship, then we, by not being able to call on the Name of the Creator-Force to forge these relationships, are doing nothing better then what is found in the animal kingdom."

For the record, there is no evidence of a "Creator Force", so, essentially, it does not exist. No great "Creator Force" forges marriges, that is the law, you seem to have them mixed up. Human marriages are a far cry from animal relationships, we think, therefore, we are. Homosexuality should be tolerated and accepted. I can't say what you mean by promoted or endorsed.


"If Man's law views alternative relationships as having the same value as a Marriage, then Man's law becomes no better then "The Law of the Jungle". Marriage is *not* "strictly a legal contract", because Man's law is based on Man's reason. Man's reason is an attribute of the same design by which the unique ability to call on the Name of the Creator-Force is also an attribute. Too embrace the attribute of reason but to shun the attribute of calling on the Name of the Creator-Force is too cherry-pick which parts of our design to follow based on what we find convenient."

There is no "Law of the Jungle", no "Creator Force", no actual change in a marriage if gay people are allowed to marry as well. You might say, "Oh, my marriage is somehow lessend because gay couples can marry too", but that is just you being a bigot.
I am not even wasteing my time on "alternative".


"By choosing too not overcome this inherent flaw and limitation of the animal kingdom, we are choosing too run agents our design, indeed our very purpose; and that is hypocrisy in motion.

Gay 'marriage = hypocrisy.
Hypocrisy = unethical.
Gay 'marriage = unethical.

(You may note that I am assigning the moral value of "unethical" to gay 'marriage, *not* to homosexuality. Like Diabetes, a learning disorder, having been born a preemie crack-baby, possesing a chemical dependence or a physical deformity: homosexuality is a personal flaw and limitation to be overcome, not surrendered to.)"

Ok, so what we have established is that homosexuality is not a flaw or limitation necessarily, it is not like a crack-baby because it occurs in nature, because there is really no "Creator Force", gay marriage is not "unethical" or hypocrisy, homosexuality is not about surrendering to, it is who you are, period, not to "overcome", we do not have a purpose, so no hypocrisy there.

Is that really all you got?


Duke
 
Canuck said:
The Equation, is what is pushed on us, it is not our choice in reality .Very few choose an equaiton when we are born the curse is cast in stone.
It is thrust upon them at birth ,based on dogmas ,traditions,ETC... some never are strong enough to escape it's cluches,taught to them from their parents , the schools teach (60%politcally correct agendas) Religions,the ones that do escape ,
are marginalized for being free !
when it's time to sing the song ,what is our song that we have made for ourselves.

a few words from DYLAN sums up what song we collectively sing

I had a woman down in Alabama,
She was a backwoods girl, but she sure was realistic,
She said, "Boy, without a doubt, have to quit your mess and straighten out,
You could die down here, be just another accident statistic."
There's a slow, slow train comin' up around the bend.

All that foreign oil controlling American soil,
Look around you, it's just bound to make you embarrassed.
Sheiks walkin' around like kings, wearing fancy jewels and nose rings,
Deciding America's future from Amsterdam and to Paris
And there's a slow, slow train comin' up around the bend.

Man's ego is inflated, his laws are outdated, they don't apply no more,
You can't rely no more to be standin' around waitin'
In the home of the brave, Jefferson turnin' over in his grave,
Fools glorifying themselves, trying to manipulate Satan
And there's a slow, slow train comin' up around the bend.

Big-time negotiators, false healers and woman haters,
Masters of the bluff and masters of the proposition
But the enemy I see wears a cloak of decency,
All non-believers and men stealers talkin' in the name of religion
And there's a slow, slow train comin' up around the bend.

People starving and thirsting, grain elevators are bursting
Oh, you know it costs more to store the food than it do to give it.
They say lose your inhibitions, follow your own ambitions,
They talk about a life of brotherly love, show me someone who knows how to
live it. There's a slow, slow train comin' up around the bend.

Ok, I think I misunderstood you.

Duke
 
Duke said:
Ok, I think I misunderstood you.

Duke

GAYS are humans they are cast in their light by dogmas and entrenched their by traditions
 
Canuck said:
GAYS are ... cast in their light by dogmas and entrenched their by traditions

Only in "civilized" society, I bet. I grew up in the '50s reading (and looking at all the pictures in) National Geographic Magazine, and I have yet to ever hear of or see any homosexuality among primitive, no-such-dogmas-or-traditions people ...

And why not? Simply because homosexual intercourse would not be natural even if it could actually be done.
 
Busta said:
I thought that we agreed to ignore DHard until he cooled his hate.........
LMFAO, you cannot ignore fact. The only hate is from the defenders of the perversion of homosexuality. To include threats of violence.
jallman said:
Also, if I may point out...you have refuted his only point many times over. To continue answering his posts would be a waste of time until he gets a point or a clue.
From one of the most hateful of the bigoted homsexuals.
 
leejosepho said:
Only in "civilized" society, I bet. I grew up in the '50s reading (and looking at all the pictures in) National Geographic Magazine, and I have yet to ever hear of or see any homosexuality among primitive, no-such-dogmas-or-traditions people ...

And why not? Simply because homosexual intercourse would not be natural even if it could actually be done.


Well, are the primitive people human? Because if so, they are like other humans in the fact that homosexuality exists for them as well.
Are you trying to say that civilization causes people to be born gay?


Duke
 
galenrox said:
Just checking, is the humor from these contradictions lost on anyone?


I sincerely hope not!!! :lol:


Duke
 
DHard3006 said:
LMFAO, you cannot ignore fact. The only hate is from the defenders of the perversion of homosexuality. To include threats of violence.

From one of the most hateful of the bigoted homsexuals.


Ahh yes, the "perversion of homosexuality". Where did you get that from? Did God say so? And you are telling someone else not to ignore facts?
You say the homosexuals are bigoted. That is just downright laughable.


Duke
 
Duke said:
.....Is that really all you got?
Duke

The Creator's blinding white light of Knowledge (the Father), Truth (the Son), and Love (the Holey Spirit)....yes, that is all I have. That is all Man needs. Everything comes from it, and without it, there is nothing.

Until this element of our moral cores coincide, I doubt that we will see eye to eye on this issue.

I respect your right to believe as you wish.
 
Busta said:
The Creator's blinding white light of Knowledge (the Father), Truth (the Son), and Love (the Holey Spirit)....yes, that is all I have. That is all Man needs. Everything comes from it, and without it, there is nothing.

Until this element of our moral cores coincide, I doubt that we will see eye to eye on this issue.

I respect your right to believe as you wish.


Ok, so your WHOLE argument basically comes down to religion. Do you think that gay marrige should not be allowed because of your religion?

Religion is about beliefs that are not based on facts. Hence, they should not effect the law, for the laws are made from logic. Do you happen to have any logic backing up your opinion on gay marriage?

Don't take it personally, it is just a matter of what is fact and what is not.


Duke
 
Duke said:
Ok, so your WHOLE argument basically comes down to religion. Do you think that gay marrige should not be allowed because of your religion?

Religion is about beliefs that are not based on facts. Hence, they should not effect the law, for the laws are made from logic. Do you happen to have any logic backing up your opinion on gay marriage?

Don't take it personally, it is just a matter of what is fact and what is not.

Duke

Until we can agree on the existence of the Creator being a fact or not, you and I are spinning our wheels.

Though I identify with having a faith instead of possesing a religion (and yes, there is a difference), if you would look into various laws in Leviticus, you would find that those laws are based on logic.

For example:
Leviticus 15:4-6;
"Every bed, whereon he lieth that hath the issue ["issue" being an illness], is unclean: and every thing, whereon he sitteth, shall be unclean. 5 And whosoever toucheth his bed shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even. 6 And he that sitteth on any thing whereon he sat that hath the issue shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the even."

Cross-contamination.

(even though I contend that sacrifices no longer need to be made....)
Leviticus 19:5-7;
"And if ye offer a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD, ye shall offer it at your own will. It shall be eaten the same day ye offer it, and on the morrow: and if ought remain until the third day, it shall be burnt in the fire. And if it be eaten at all on the third day, it is abominable; it shall not be accepted."

The underlined is because the meat would be spoiled.

Leviticus19:29;
"Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness."

Self explanatory.

The idea that religion and faith have no sencable, logical or reasonable foundation is nothing more then arrogant propaganda.
 
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leejosepho said:
Only in "civilized" society, I bet. I grew up in the '50s reading (and looking at all the pictures in) National Geographic Magazine, and I have yet to ever hear of or see any homosexuality among primitive, no-such-dogmas-or-traditions people ...

And why not? Simply because homosexual intercourse would not be natural even if it could actually be done.

I do not believe it is natural au contaire mon amis
I believe it exists ,it is not a natural occurence ,and may even be a perversion.
It's source is unknown ,I do however suggest that society not treat them as outcasts , villians ,and that we need to understand what makes them that way.Our dogmas and traditions have made members of our society an unwelcomed participant .
That in itself is a perversion as well
religeously speaking ,What the bible tells us is quite clear, the story of sodum and gamorah (sp to lazy to look up)alone is quite explicite on the matter.As well as other places in the bible that refer to it ,as evil practices of Satan.What we see today concerning the anglican church splintering off into groups is because they are not adhering to the bibles teachings about the subject,Catholic priests as well have perportrated crimes against humanity concerning this subject.
I do not have all the answers ,But I do know that if church ,and science do not reinvent themselves, to alow for both to co-mingle, more people will be leaving both camps.the perverted people that inhabit this world are still human beings , and as such should be treated with respect accorded to any other human being.
 
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Duke said:
Well, are the primitive people human? Because if so, they are like other humans in the fact that homosexuality exists for them as well.

I am no anthropologist, but I doubt that is true.

Duke said:
Are you trying to say that civilization causes people to be born gay?

No, at least not directly. Rather, I believe some kind of genetic degeneration or whatever has over time led to various people being born with certain deviant predispositions (such as my own alcoholism) ... or something like that.
 
leejosepho said:
I am no anthropologist, but I doubt that is true.



No, at least not directly. Rather, I believe some kind of genetic degeneration or whatever has over time led to various people being born with certain deviant predispositions (such as my own alcoholism) ... or something like that.

I did read an interesting theory once...but never heard about it again. There are toxins released into the environment called endocrine disruptors or environmental estrogens. Over time, these disruptors can alter the behavioral patterns of populations of alligators. One of the foremost alterations in behavior is the mating ritual. Now that would point to an environmental cause for homosexuality but would still hold true with the idea that homosexuality is not a choice. I dunno, just throwing that out there.
 
Canuck said:
I do not believe it is natural ...
I do however suggest that society not treat them as outcasts, villians, and that we need to understand what makes them that way. Our dogmas and traditions have made members of our society an unwelcomed participant.
That in itself is a perversion as well ...

Agreed: Perversion abounds in us all.

Canuck said:
... the perverted people that inhabit this world are still human beings ...

Is it not perverted for the perverted to refer to the perverted as perverted?!

Canuck said:
... and as such should be treated [as properly and rightly as] any other human being.

In any case, we agree there, although I had to change a couple of words to avoid potential confusion concerning the matter of politically-correct "respect".
 
Canuck said:
I do not believe it is natural au contaire mon amis
I believe it exists ,it is not a natural occurence ,and may even be a perversion......

Marriage predates the Constitution by thousands of years. There is no disrespect given to anyone when We keep with what marriage is, instead of deceiving ourseves by saying that Marriage is something which it is not.

The 'sin' of a man laying with another man as he does a woman is no different then the 'sin' of adultery, the 'sin' of lying or the 'sin' of steeling. All are set before us as a challenge to be overcome, *not* something to be accepted as 'normal' and surrendered too.

If the dogma of our mutual faith tells us that homosexuality is an abomination, then let us subject homosexuality to scientific examination and experimentation so as to discover it's nature, it's precursors, and possibly a resolution.

Who will be waring the egg on their face, should the day come where, after having legalized gay 'marriage, there is some scientific discovery which conclusively places homosexuality in a category of a mental syndrome or illness?

If I am to be persuaded by science, then why isn't scientific evidence one of the first arguments used in a debate such as this?
 
jallman said:
I did read an interesting theory once...but never heard about it again. There are toxins released into the environment called endocrine disruptors or environmental estrogens. Over time, these disruptors can alter the behavioral patterns of populations of alligators. One of the foremost alterations in behavior is the mating ritual. Now that would point to an environmental cause for homosexuality but would still hold true with the idea that homosexuality is not a choice. I dunno, just throwing that out there.

Sounds plausible to me.

Key West, Florida, has a large homosexual population, and years ago, I spent thousands of hours there in A.A. meetings, and often with homosexual friends of mine also present. Overall, we never had any problem believing and agreeing that both alcoholism and homosexuality were results of some kind of deviant-from-the-norm genetic predisposition, but the fact that homosexuality does not lead directly to death typically held my homosexual friends back from wanting to do something about it ... and most of them ended up also drinking again. In one case, however, a young man who gave a great talk on his second sobriety anniversary - he got quite a roar of laughter over a statement he made about what happens every time he lets the smallest part of his body direct his thinking - then contracted AIDS from a homosexual partner that very night and was dead within a year.

What does all of that mean? I dunno. But whenever anyone is wanting to get over anything causing great trouble in his or her life, I now know a way out.
 
I find it ironic that those who wish for their actions to be recognized as equal to actions which originate with God, reject God in that persuit of acceptance.

Their methods preclude their victory.
 
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