Total taxation in the US is one of the lowest in the developed world

[Lafayette]

What I want for my offspring is a country that balances it's budget, guarantees all its citizens adequate shelter/food/medical/dental, a very small peacetime/very large reserve armed forces, no central bank, no government economic intervention, no business/corporate taxation, a VERY simple tax system with no deductions except for charitable contributions and capital losses, identical capital gains/income tax rates, no taxes for the poor and the absolute smallest possible taxes and government that are possible.

You are dreaming. The above is Mission Impossible in a world where market-economies are in competition.

So, you and a couple of hundred families should take the next Private Spaceship journey to a habitable planet and start all over again, because your recipe, in fact, is a good one.

Meanwhile, watch from a larrrrge distance while the global economy implodes on earth, brought down by the mindless exploitation by just 0.001% of the total population of the rest of us.

Because that is the way the earth is heading ...

 

[Lafayette]

... and yet once again-the top one percent make less than 20% of the income and certainly don't own 100% of the estates yet they pay about 40% of the income tax and all the estate taxes
.

Propaganda.

This is is the statistical breakdown as it should be seen:


Now wrap your head around that graphic ...

 

[Lafayette]

Propaganda.

This is is the statistical breakdown as it should be seen:
View attachment 67211875

Now wrap your head around that graphic ...

*I've already told you a couple of times to either get your stats together and post them with your arguments or go off somewhere else. This is a Debate Forum, not a Message Board. Get it?

 

[Lafayette]

You are disingenuous. My point stands.

Facts that confront "conventional wisdom" always hurt the most.

M r a ...

 

[Lafayette]

Its not an excuse, its reality.

Yes, I know it is reality and not artificial.

But most of America is sleeping when the facts are vehemently obvious.

Had they been "awake politically" - Donald Dork would not have won the presidency.

(In fact, he didn't in the popular vote - so he may be Your PotUS, but he's not Mine ...)

 

[Lafayette]

But that's exactly what he said. The tax code is the tax code. A so called loophole is the tax code. It is not against the law to use a loophole. If you want to outlaw the loophole then outlaw it. Until then the loophole is the tax code. Everyone from the poor to the rich tries to pay the least amount of taxes they can.

I never maintained it was "against the law". You've not understood what you read (and if you read it).

I maintained that it is "artificial and unfair" and the underlying reason for the US's aberrant Income Disparity:


The US is at the same high level of China? I suppose you must think that is "normal" ... ?

 

[Lafayette]

Move to Denmark if you don't like it here.

Only if you move to China.

There is a first-class plutocracy there that is buying up real-estate in America as a "second-home" ...

 

[Lafayette]

The US collects less taxes than others because 47% pay zero federal income taxes. Deflect all you want in your liberal ways but that is the cold hard truth. The other countries you mention tax more than just the wealthy. Everyone pays for universal health care and education. Everyone.

Yes, everyone does because the risk of Health Care is also common to the entire population. As much as the desire for an advanced people who have the skills that a modern society exacts as a precondition for a good and well-paying job.

And these countries (totalling more than 700 million individuals in the EU) have had both of the above government-provided Social Services for at least half a century. Whilst in the US, people have died awaiting free HealthCare at the Emergency Room when it was already "too late" to heal. (Which is also why life-spans are three years less than in the EU.)

The aberrancy of both costly Health Care AND postsecondary education are unique to the US amongst today's "developed economies". And until Americans voters that this outcome was the willful product of Replicant Administrations since Reckless Ronnie, nothing can or will be done.

Obama tried, but his hands were tied by the Replicant HofR, who were voted control of that Chamber of Congress in 2010; two years after he was elected and had stopped dead an exploding unemployment rate caused by a previous Replicant president's mishandling of Wall Street that triggered the Great Recession.

The Replicant HofR, from which all US budgets issue steadfastly refused any Stimulus Spending from 2010 onward, which is why it took another four long, long years for the economy to start creating jobs again.

A history shown by the Bureau of Labor Statistics in this infographic (from here):

'Nuff said ... ?

 

[Lafayette]

so you are speaking for a class you seem to detest. the vast majority of people in the top 1% make less than a couple million a year. So why do you caterwaul about someone making 400B to serve as an example of a group making much less

And why should I not "caterwaul"?

The injustice of any system of governance is always best exemplified by its most egregious examples ...

 

[OpportunityCost]

Yes, I know it is reality and not artificial.

But most of America is sleeping when the facts are vehemently obvious.

Had they been "awake politically" - Donald Dork would not have won the presidency.

(In fact, he didn't in the popular vote - so he may be Your PotUS, but he's not Mine ...)

I see, so you are in denial of reality. He is the President of the US so he is your President whether you admit it or not. Btw, you didn't give an answer, you gave a talking point.

 

[OpportunityCost]

Yes, everyone does because the risk of Health Care is also common to the entire population. As much as the desire for an advanced people who have the skills that a modern society exacts as a precondition for a good and well-paying job.

And these countries (totalling more than 700 million individuals in the EU) have had both of the above government-provided Social Services for at least half a century. Whilst in the US, people have died awaiting free HealthCare at the Emergency Room when it was already "too late" to heal. (Which is also why life-spans are three years less than in the EU.)

The aberrancy of both costly Health Care AND postsecondary education are unique to the US amongst today's "developed economies". And until Americans voters that this outcome was the willful product of Replicant Administrations since Reckless Ronnie, nothing can or will be done.

Obama tried, but his hands were tied by the Replicant HofR, who were voted control of that Chamber of Congress in 2010; two years after he was elected and had stopped dead an exploding unemployment rate caused by a previous Replicant president's mishandling of Wall Street that triggered the Great Recession.

The Replicant HofR, from which all US budgets issue steadfastly refused any Stimulus Spending from 2010 onward, which is why it took another four long, long years for the economy to start creating jobs again.

A history shown by the Bureau of Labor Statistics in this infographic (from here):

'Nuff said ... ?

Government doesn't create jobs. It takes money from the private sector that could be used to create jobs.

 

[Lord of Planar]

What I want for my offspring is a country that balances it's budget, guarantees all its citizens adequate shelter/food/medical/dental, a very small peacetime/very large reserve armed forces, no central bank, no government economic intervention, no business/corporate taxation, a VERY simple tax system with no deductions except for charitable contributions and capital losses, identical capital gains/income tax rates, no taxes for the poor and the absolute smallest possible taxes and government that are possible.

Are you moving to Utopia?

 

[Lord of Planar]

Propaganda.

This is is the statistical breakdown as it should be seen:
View attachment 67211875

Now wrap your head around that graphic ...

Nobody likes it but the rich.

The only way to fix it is to stop politicians from favoring their friends in the laws and regulations made.

 

[joG]

Please demonstrate how seniors would be able to get health insurance in the private sector absent big subsidies. Let's see how that would even be actuarily possible. What do you reckon the BCBS rate would be for a 75 year old man?

Also, please demonstrate how a cancer patient that was too sick to work any longer, and thus no longer in their group plan, would have any coverage for their treatments without Medicaid. What private insurer would possibly want to take on a patient whose medical bills ran between 30k and 100k a month?

See this is my problem with you guys that are against any sort of social safetynet. You are in a dream world. Your ideas are not less utopian and absurd than those of rabid communists. The system you advocate is not in use anywhere in the developed world and with good reason. Moreover, what you want is so unconscionable that you would have to elect Charles Manson to get it done.

So once again, why don't you just come out and say it, to balance the budget you are willing to slash Medicare, slash Medicaid, slash Social Security, and slash Defense spending.

That the US system is not necessarily optimal is quite true. But that makes implicit questions of the type: "Please demonstrate how seniors would be able to get health insurance in the private sector absent big subsidies. Let's see how that would even be actuarily possible. What do you reckon the BCBS rate would be for a 75 year old man?" illegitimate in a discussion of the best way of structuring a sector, public finance etc. You cannot argue that because we did it wrong a problem resulting from that justifies making long term decisions that are wrong to begin with. If you wanted a quick fix for your 75 years old that is one thing. Installing a system of public production of private goods is quite another.

 

[Lord of Planar]

A history shown by the Bureau of Labor Statistics in this infographic (from here):

'Nuff said ... ?

Wow...

Look at all those extra people working after Obama took office!


...


Oh wait.

That's alot less than when he took office.

 

[joG]

Nobody likes it but the rich.

The only way to fix it is to stop politicians from favoring their friends in the laws and regulations made.

Well, that graph is not really so surprising or apriori negative. We have been in a period of groth globally and have a couple of billions of laborers looking for capital to be able to compete. It makes a lot of sense in a time of oversupply of labor for capital to accumulate for allocation to that underused labor instead of being consumed. The wealthy tend to save ie invest much more of their income than do the poor or middle income groups. So, if you want growth and cheaper and more plentiful goods, the process will demand an increase in wealth at the top of the income pile.

 

[joG]

I never maintained it was "against the law". You've not understood what you read (and if you read it).

I maintained that it is "artificial and unfair" and the underlying reason for the US's aberrant Income Disparity:
View attachment 67211876

The US is at the same high level of China? I suppose you must think that is "normal" ... ?

What is your problem. We are on a travers with a large amount of labor searching for capital to make it competitive. As large capital accumulations will tend to spend more on further investment than would groups with no capital and lower income, it makes sense to see an increase in the concentration of that limited capital. As a matter of fact, riling against this development is almost inhumane and vicious. It implies reducing the amount of development in the countries with real poverty and is quite a populist trick; despicable, really.

 

[ocean515]

And I suggest to your that the "basic operative consequence" is that 40 million Americas live below the Poverty Threshold and have been doing so since 1965:
View attachment 67211858

That number is equivalent to the population of the states of California and Idaho. And your answer to them is pursue their "human endeavour". Out of a principle that has no relation whatsoever to the causes of their penury and thus miserable lives.

That's not at all smart ...

Right. Well, noting your sudden lurch into poverty, the US has conducted a war on poverty for 40+ years - Trillions of dollars spent, and no discernable difference in poverty. So, the question becomes, should the government just continue burning money, or is there a different strategy that might provide better results?

 

[Fletch]

Only if you move to China.

There is a first-class plutocracy there that is buying up real-estate in America as a "second-home" ...

Why should I move? You are the one complaining that your ability to leech off your fellow Americans isn't as great as it is in Europe. Rather than turn America into your parasitical fantasy land, you move.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

That the US system is not necessarily optimal is quite true. But that makes implicit questions of the type: "Please demonstrate how seniors would be able to get health insurance in the private sector absent big subsidies. Let's see how that would even be actuarily possible. What do you reckon the BCBS rate would be for a 75 year old man?" illegitimate in a discussion of the best way of structuring a sector, public finance etc. You cannot argue that because we did it wrong a problem resulting from that justifies making long term decisions that are wrong to begin with. If you wanted a quick fix for your 75 years old that is one thing. Installing a system of public production of private goods is quite another.

A 75 year old is uninsurable in the private sector because they are 75 years old and thus are guaranteed to have large medical expenses within the next few years. The fact that the public sector got involved is a recognition of that, not the cause.

 

[Moderate Right]

I never maintained it was "against the law". You've not understood what you read (and if you read it).

I maintained that it is "artificial and unfair" and the underlying reason for the US's aberrant Income Disparity:
View attachment 67211876

The US is at the same high level of China? I suppose you must think that is "normal" ... ?

Great news for you! Trump and the Republicans want to simplify the tax code and eliminate the loopholes.

 

[TurtleDude]

Propaganda.

This is is the statistical breakdown as it should be seen:
View attachment 67211875

Now wrap your head around that graphic ...

Uh that has no relevance to my point. If the rich had loopholes, we'd be paying less of the tax share than our share of the income

 

[TurtleDude]

And why should I not "caterwaul"?

The injustice of any system of governance is always best exemplified by its most egregious examples ...

and its dishonest to pretend the solutions you want should be based on the "most egregious examples" when your solutions are really intended to mostly apply to many others who aren't egregious.

 

[Moderate Right]

Yes, everyone does because the risk of Health Care is also common to the entire population. As much as the desire for an advanced people who have the skills that a modern society exacts as a precondition for a good and well-paying job.

And these countries (totalling more than 700 million individuals in the EU) have had both of the above government-provided Social Services for at least half a century. Whilst in the US, people have died awaiting free HealthCare at the Emergency Room when it was already "too late" to heal. (Which is also why life-spans are three years less than in the EU.)

The aberrancy of both costly Health Care AND postsecondary education are unique to the US amongst today's "developed economies". And until Americans voters that this outcome was the willful product of Replicant Administrations since Reckless Ronnie, nothing can or will be done.

Obama tried, but his hands were tied by the Replicant HofR, who were voted control of that Chamber of Congress in 2010; two years after he was elected and had stopped dead an exploding unemployment rate caused by a previous Replicant president's mishandling of Wall Street that triggered the Great Recession.

The Replicant HofR, from which all US budgets issue steadfastly refused any Stimulus Spending from 2010 onward, which is why it took another four long, long years for the economy to start creating jobs again.

A history shown by the Bureau of Labor Statistics in this infographic (from here):

'Nuff said ... ?

I totally agree that those benefitting from government services should be helping to pay for them, except for those below the poverty line. Since the poverty line is about 15% then it is ridiculous that 47% pay no federal income taxes.

 

[TurtleDude]

Right. Well, noting your sudden lurch into poverty, the US has conducted a war on poverty for 40+ years - Trillions of dollars spent, and no discernable difference in poverty. So, the question becomes, should the government just continue burning money, or is there a different strategy that might provide better results?

the main purpose of the war on poverty is to create a class of dependents who will always vote for the Democrat Party while enriching the leaders of that party as they dip their greedy beaks into the massive amounts of money diverted to the government