"too many white people in key government posts" ? - Susan Rice[W:172, 240]

[Captain Adverse]

Re: "too many white people in key government posts" ? - Susan Rice

So you believe the black population in America has access to the same "education and training" as the white population, in general?

Yes I do. The same opportunities generally available to everyone, if the student's strive to use them and their families push them to do so.

Once upon a time there was some justification to blame external forces for providing sub-par education to Black American children. Funds intentionally diverted or withheld, the worst teachers sent to the school systems with little in the way of educational tools. In some backwards parts of the country this might still exist, although more of a truism for any economically depressed area rather than one based primarily on racism.

IMO from first hand experience and observations now the problem lies in acculturation of an entitlement mentality within much of the Black community rather than having anything to do with educational opportunities themselves. Efforts to divert personal responsibility by blaming racism and discrimination when all it would take is a real desire to achieve and the effort to take advantage of the resources to do so. That the "white man is keeping me down" rather than recognizing the sense of entitlement that makes some believe jobs and promotions should be granted without qualifications simply because....Racism!

 

[legalimmigrant]

Re: "too many white people in key government posts" ? - Susan Rice

I would be interested in some concrete evidence that minorities are doing far worse before "this program" (what program?) was introduced. Could you be more specific?

As long as we're looking for evidence, could we not also look at other countries? Doesn't a social safety net for people in need work rather well in places like Sweden and Denmark? On any objective measure, those countries do quite well socially and economically while also providing for their disadvantaged populations. I think we could back that up with comparative OECD data.

Blacks are screwing themselves accepting any form of affirmative action.

Because they do, I will never select a black doctor. In fact, when I am looking for one, I ask for a white male, 40- to 50-year-old, U.S.-born and educated. No exceptions.

That profile describes the most discriminated against segment of the American society. To succeed, they have to be really good.

 

[Marquez]

Re: "too many white people in key government posts" ? - Susan Rice

Yes I do. The same opportunities generally available to everyone, if the student's strive to use them and their families push them to do so.

Once upon a time there was some justification to blame external forces for providing sub-par education to Black American children. Funds intentionally diverted or withheld, the worst teachers sent to the school systems with little in the way of educational tools. In some backwards parts of the country this might still exist, although more of a truism for any economically depressed area rather than one based primarily on racism.

IMO from first hand experience and observations now the problem lies in acculturation of an entitlement mentality within much of the Black community rather than having anything to do with educational opportunities themselves. Efforts to divert personal responsibility by blaming racism and discrimination when all it would take is a real desire to achieve and the effort to take advantage of the resources to do so. That the "white man is keeping me down" rather than recognizing the sense of entitlement that makes some believe jobs and promotions should be granted without qualifications simply because....Racism!

What kind of evidence, if it existed, would convince you that whites and blacks do not generally have access to the same education and training? Also, what kind of evidence, if it existed, would convince you that a "sense of entitlement" is not the primary obstacle for minorities trying to make something of themselves?

 

[Marquez]

Re: "too many white people in key government posts" ? - Susan Rice

The minority family has dissolved.



Don't you believe that the children in two parent families have a much better chance at succeeding in life?
Don't you believe that the children not born to single teen aged mothers have a much better chance at succeeding in life?

I believe that the war on poverty, and all it's give away provisions, have made things worse rather than better.

Yes, it's a sad fact that most African-American children are born without fathers in the household. What leads you to believe that this is a product of the "war on poverty?" Could you be more specific as to what constitutes the "war on poverty?"

 

[Fishking]

Re: "too many white people in key government posts" ? - Susan Rice

you honestly dont know why?

Double standard?

 

[Captain Adverse]

Re: "too many white people in key government posts" ? - Susan Rice

What kind of evidence, if it existed, would convince you that whites and blacks do not generally have access to the same education and training? Also, what kind of evidence, if it existed, would convince you that a "sense of entitlement" is not the primary obstacle for minorities trying to make something of themselves?

Rather YOU should provide what evidence YOU think convinces you otherwise. :shrug:

 

[Fishking]

Re: "too many white people in key government posts" ? - Susan Rice

Does advocating for a "more diverse workforce" (Rice's words) always necessitate the kinds of quotas of which you speak? Are there reasonable ways, other than quotas, to help people with fewer opportunities, especially considering the problem of income inequality in America?

When you're talking about the types of jobs that she's talking about you don't consider who has what type of opportunity. You pick the most qualified person, period.

 

[eohrnberger]

Re: "too many white people in key government posts" ? - Susan Rice

Yes, it's a sad fact that most African-American children are born without fathers in the household. What leads you to believe that this is a product of the "war on poverty?" Could you be more specific as to what constitutes the "war on poverty?"

The 'War on Poverty' is detailed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Poverty

 

[AlbqOwl]

Re: "too many white people in key government posts" ? - Susan Rice

Yes I do. The same opportunities generally available to everyone, if the student's strive to use them and their families push them to do so.

Once upon a time there was some justification to blame external forces for providing sub-par education to Black American children. Funds intentionally diverted or withheld, the worst teachers sent to the school systems with little in the way of educational tools. In some backwards parts of the country this might still exist, although more of a truism for any economically depressed area rather than one based primarily on racism.

IMO from first hand experience and observations now the problem lies in acculturation of an entitlement mentality within much of the Black community rather than having anything to do with educational opportunities themselves. Efforts to divert personal responsibility by blaming racism and discrimination when all it would take is a real desire to achieve and the effort to take advantage of the resources to do so. That the "white man is keeping me down" rather than recognizing the sense of entitlement that makes some believe jobs and promotions should be granted without qualifications simply because....Racism!

Well said. Those black people who ignored the racists, whether black or white, who told them that they were culturally disadvantaged and/or 'whitey' would keep them down, and went out to live their lives on their own terms, managed to qualify for admission to good colleges on the same basis as everybody else qualified, they educated themselves, and through perseverance and sheer ability, they punched through any residual barriers of prejudice and accomplished themselves.

I keep saying the war against racism has been fought and won. It is time to stop fighting it.

 

[Fishking]

Re: "too many white people in key government posts" ? - Susan Rice

So you believe the black population in America has access to the same "education and training" as the white population, in general?

No. It's hard to have a good education system, and attract good teachers, when you have to spend money on metal detectors and police guards. Most high quality teachers won't want to work somewhere where their is higher chance of physical violence and there is no culture of education so no one cares what you're trying to teach, regardless.

No amount of school funding will ever change that dynamic. It has to come from within their own communities.

 

[Marquez]

Re: "too many white people in key government posts" ? - Susan Rice

Rather YOU should provide what evidence YOU think convinces you otherwise. :shrug:

First of all, I never gave an opinion on this matter.

But I like to play fair, so I'll offer up the kind of evidence that would form my opinion. First, anecdotal evidence. I'm a high school teacher. If I could walk to an urban school nearby and see the same level of services, infrastructure, curriculum, arts, activities, sports, and high-quality teachers in predominately black areas in my city as I find in predominately white areas, I'd be inclined to start believing in the kind of equality of which you speak.

Also important would be data. If I could find peer-reviewed journals studying teacher quality that showed black, urban schools had the same level of teacher quality; that would help convince me that what you're saying is true. If I saw that black schools tend to perform academically and have similar levels of funding as predominately white schools, that would help. If black students were offered the same kinds of spots at private prep schools that white students are, that would help. If data showed the achievement gap disappearing, I might be inclined to say that your vision of equality might be emerging.

In fact, I have researched all of these factors, rather extensively, throughout my career. Unfortunately, black children do not have the same educational opportunities as white children in America. What kind of evidence, if it existed, would convince you of that?

 

[coldjoint]

Re: "too many white people in key government posts" ? - Susan Rice

First of all, I never gave an opinion on this matter.

But I like to play fair, so I'll offer up the kind of evidence that would form my opinion. First, anecdotal evidence. I'm a high school teacher. If I could walk to an urban school nearby and see the same level of services, infrastructure, curriculum, arts, activities, sports, and high-quality teachers in predominately black areas in my city as I find in predominately white areas, I'd be inclined to start believing in the kind of equality of which you speak.

Also important would be data. If I could find peer-reviewed journals studying teacher quality that showed black, urban schools had the same level of teacher quality; that would help convince me that what you're saying is true. If I saw that black schools tend to perform academically and have similar levels of funding as predominately white schools, that would help. If black students were offered the same kinds of spots at private prep schools that white students are, that would help. If data showed the achievement gap disappearing, I might be inclined to say that your vision of equality might be emerging.

In fact, I have researched all of these factors, rather extensively, throughout my career. Unfortunately, black children do not have the same educational opportunities as white children in America. What kind of evidence, if it existed, would convince you of that?

How many more bureaucrats do we need to hire to make sure that happens? The Owl is right. MLK was right. Merit should count first.

 

[Cephus]

Re: "too many white people in key government posts" ? - Susan Rice

Dunno, but if a white person every said anything like a government department was too black, there'd be all hell to pay, wouldn't there?
Why is this any different in the slightest?

It isn't. Racism is racism, period.

 

[Crovax]

Re: "too many white people in key government posts" ? - Susan Rice

Does advocating for a "more diverse workforce" (Rice's words) always necessitate the kinds of quotas of which you speak? Are there reasonable ways, other than quotas, to help people with fewer opportunities, especially considering the problem of income inequality in America?

Yes, if diversity is valued over functionality

 

[Cephus]

Re: "too many white people in key government posts" ? - Susan Rice

Does advocating for a "more diverse workforce" (Rice's words) always necessitate the kinds of quotas of which you speak? Are there reasonable ways, other than quotas, to help people with fewer opportunities, especially considering the problem of income inequality in America?

Are there people with "fewer opportunities" or are there people who don't take advantage of opportunities they have? Why are these people paying attention only to skin color and not being called racist because of it?

 

[Captain Adverse]

Re: "too many white people in key government posts" ? - Susan Rice

First of all, I never gave an opinion on this matter.

But I like to play fair, so I'll offer up the kind of evidence that would form my opinion. First, anecdotal evidence. I'm a high school teacher. If I could walk to an urban school nearby and see the same level of services, infrastructure, curriculum, arts, activities, sports, and high-quality teachers in predominately black areas in my city as I find in predominately white areas, I'd be inclined to start believing in the kind of equality of which you speak.

Also important would be data. If I could find peer-reviewed journals studying teacher quality that showed black, urban schools had the same level of teacher quality; that would help convince me that what you're saying is true. If I saw that black schools tend to perform academically and have similar levels of funding as predominately white schools, that would help. If black students were offered the same kinds of spots at private prep schools that white students are, that would help. If data showed the achievement gap disappearing, I might be inclined to say that your vision of equality might be emerging.

In fact, I have researched all of these factors, rather extensively, throughout my career. Unfortunately, black children do not have the same educational opportunities as white children in America. What kind of evidence, if it existed, would convince you of that?

I was going to go into a whole rant about my own "street cred," complete with a history of my family's struggles with the "system" before, during, and after Brown v. Board of Education much less during the period of the Civil Rights movement culminating in the Civil Rights Act. But you don't need to know that.

I was also going to talk about my own personal experiences over my six decades of life addressing my attendance at 5 grade schools, 3 middle schools, and 6 high schools in places as diverse as Watt's CA, and Harlem NY. The efforts to advance myself and what steps I took to get 4 degrees after completing grade school. Go into my own experiences as a teacher for five years at middle and high school levels at equally diverse schools. But you don't need to know the details about that either.

As for "peer reviewed journals?" Studies can and have been created to prove every side of an issue and too much is made about their value depending on which side you sit on.

No, I am simply going to state that many Black Americans have successfully negotiated the morass of the American education system with the same drive and determination to succeed as any White, Asian, or Hispanic American and advanced in society despite the real or faux roadblocks claimed by so many others. That growing up in the ghetto environments we are discussing showed me the difference between those peers who strove and those peers who sought any and every excuse for their own lack of drive and subsequent attitude that despite lacking any real qualifications they are entitled to a good job just because..."Racism!"

IMO you are an enabler with your "black children do not have the same educational opportunities as white children" meme. I succeeded and many of my peers did because we did NOT "blame the white devil," we simply did what we needed to succeed on our own merits.

 

[Marquez]

Re: "too many white people in key government posts" ? - Susan Rice

I was going to go into a whole rant about my own "street cred," complete with a history of my family's struggles with the "system" before, during, and after Brown v. Board of Education much less during the period of the Civil Rights movement culminating in the Civil Rights Act. But you don't need to know that.

I was also going to talk about my own personal experiences over my six decades of life addressing my attendance at 5 grade schools, 3 middle schools, and 6 high schools in places as diverse as Watt's CA, and Harlem NY. The efforts to advance myself and what steps I took to get 4 degrees after completing grade school. Go into my own experiences as a teacher for five years at middle and high school levels at equally diverse schools. But you don't need to know the details about that either.

As for "peer reviewed journals?" Studies can and have been created to prove every side of an issue and too much is made about their value depending on which side you sit on.

No, I am simply going to state that many Black Americans have successfully negotiated the morass of the American education system with the same drive and determination to succeed as any White, Asian, or Hispanic American and advanced in society despite the real or faux roadblocks claimed by so many others. That growing up in the ghetto environments we are discussing showed me the difference between those peers who strove and those peers who sought any and every excuse for their own lack of drive and subsequent attitude that despite lacking any real qualifications they are entitled to a good job just because..."Racism!"

IMO you are an enabler with your "black children do not have the same educational opportunities as white children" meme. I succeeded and many of my peers did because we did NOT "blame the white devil," we simply did what we needed to succeed on our own merits.

I'm impressed with your credentials. They're not dissimilar to my own. I have several degrees as well, and have taught in the best prep schools and the poorest urban high schools in my career. We are different, however, insofar as I take educational research seriously. The only real way to get above and beyond people's mere anecdotal opinions is to look at large swaths of real data. I find it remarkable the way that people dismiss such data out of hand when it doesn't fit their prejudices.

Unlike you, I've found that my students of color have just as much drive and determination as my white students. We're talking about children here. They're not making bad choices and scoffing at every opportunity. It's that they don't have the same opportunities. If you can't see that, even as a person of color, then you've learned nothing about inequality in our country. I'm sorry that you're part of the problem and not the solution.

I also find it fascinating that you are unwilling or unable to get specific about the kinds of evidence that would uproot you from your entrenched position.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: "too many white people in key government posts" ? - Susan Rice

Does advocating for a "more diverse workforce" (Rice's words) always necessitate the kinds of quotas of which you speak? Are there reasonable ways, other than quotas, to help people with fewer opportunities, especially considering the problem of income inequality in America?

I wonder is she will complain about the fact that there isn't a single Protestant on the Supreme court in though that group is more common in the US population than Catholics or Jews?

 

[Marquez]

Re: "too many white people in key government posts" ? - Susan Rice

The 'War on Poverty' is detailed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Poverty

I didn't find the part where it says that the policies enacted 50 years ago have caused African-Americans to have children out of wedlock. Nor does this tell me how we've solved the problem of income inequality. Nor does this tell me how racism is no longer a problem in our country. What it does tell me is that Paul Ryan doesn't understand economics.

 

[ludin]

Re: "too many white people in key government posts" ? - Susan Rice

you honestly dont know why?

that is a racist comment for someone that doesn't support racism why do you support this?
hmmm or do you only support racism with it suit your cause?

the liberal hypocrisy at it again. this is why no one should take these EMO shouts seriously.

 

[ludin]

Re: "too many white people in key government posts" ? - Susan Rice

I wasn't asking "how the left would deal with it." I was asking what you think might be a reasonable policy for helping disadvantaged people?

Nearly every country on the planet redistributes wealth. As the link I provided establishes, most Americans believe that the current level of income inequality is wildly unjust. So I think you're in a pretty small minority if you regard income inequality as a "red herring." I'm sure it's not fun to be in the powerless minority on that issue. There's some irony here, I think.

Profit is a dirty word used by evil little men so that they may easily take that which they didn't work for.

IE you want more money then do something to earn it.

 

[Captain Adverse]

Re: "too many white people in key government posts" ? - Susan Rice

I'm impressed with your credentials. They're not dissimilar to my own. I have several degrees as well, and have taught in the best prep schools and the poorest urban high schools in my career. We are different, however, insofar as I take educational research seriously. The only real way to get above and beyond people's mere anecdotal opinions is to look at large swaths of real data. I find it remarkable the way that people dismiss such data out of hand when it doesn't fit their prejudices.

Unlike you, I've found that my students of color have just as much drive and determination as my white students. We're talking about children here. They're not making bad choices and scoffing at every opportunity. It's that they don't have the same opportunities. If you can't see that, even as a person of color, then you've learned nothing about inequality in our country. I'm sorry that you're part of the problem and not the solution.

I also find it fascinating that you are unwilling or unable to get specific about the kinds of evidence that would uproot you from your entrenched position.

Well, how do you quantify cultural attitudes entrenched in many Generation X and Millennials in the aftermath of the Affirmative Action shoe-horning of ill-trained and unprepared applicants, followed by the Slavery Debt meme of the 70's and 80's?

Peers who bought into this sudden push to right all wrongs as quickly but inefficiently as possible creating a clear entitlement mentality among large swathes of the Black Community?

What happened to the work and strive ethic that used to exist in the community? How do you measure this now? I certainly don't know, but I refuse to buy into the blame game.

People need to take personal responsibility, individually and as a community.

 

[eohrnberger]

Re: "too many white people in key government posts" ? - Susan Rice

I didn't find the part where it says that the policies enacted 50 years ago have caused African-Americans to have children out of wedlock. Nor does this tell me how we've solved the problem of income inequality. Nor does this tell me how racism is no longer a problem in our country. What it does tell me is that Paul Ryan doesn't understand economics.

Just marvelous in that you can only see what you want to see. It really helps in avoiding the difficult, the politically incorrect, or the ideologically banned or inconvenient.

Do carry on.

 

[imyoda]

Re: "too many white people in key government posts" ? - Susan Rice

Dunno, but if a white person every said anything like a government department was too black, there'd be all hell to pay, wouldn't there?
Why is this any different in the slightest?

When the headline sounds unbelievable...............It most often is,,,,,,,Especially when from a biased source

Any one who believes That Susan Rice would say and mean sure a foolish thing is a horse's ass........

 

[David G]

Re: "too many white people in key government posts" ? - Susan Rice

It isn't. How more racist can you get than to say that all white people think alike?

So much misinformation. So much misunderstanding.

She wasn't saying anything specifically about, and certainly not against, whites. She was taking note of the fact that the best decisions are made when the widest range of opinions and perspectives are represented at the table.