• Please read the Announcement concerning missing posts from 10/8/25-10/15/25.
  • This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

To kill or not to kill

No born human has the right to take a woman's bodily resources against her will. A fetus in non-viable stages does not have this right either. The woman can eject it for any reason she sees fit.

Furthermore, it may be a developing human being, but you know as well as I do that does not make it entitled to live, especially given its lack of any capacity resembling that of a born baby. I throw the "so what?" argument right back at you.

The one and most crucial point that you are ignoring is that she chose to have sex. I know that is seems unreasonable... I'm not saying that it is fair, that is just simply how it is. Sex is not a need. Sex is a want. Again, sorry, that is just how it is. That is just a fact. Your argument would only be valid if we kidnapped a woman and impregnated her against her will, and that is obviously not happening so your argument is obviously.

Your, "does not make it entitled to live" argument works just fine for fetuses... they are developing humans and all that needs changing is their status just as same sex partners are being discriminated against simply due to the term marriage. If a fetus was accepted as a human by pro-choice people and people in general, then they would, in fact, be entitled with the right to live. Pro-choicers are simply not acknowledging this since they would rather have the right to kill their baby than to be responsible. It is rather sad, really.
 
No....independent in scientific terms means being able to survive without third party biological interference. Independence in science is not the same as independence in social terms.
Is it biological interferece to breast feed an infant who is otherwise unable to survive?
 
It's not disingenuous, it's not attached.

It's embedded.
At implantation, it burrows into the endometrium, sometimes causing pain and bleeding.
I consider that a variant of being attached.
 
The one and most crucial point that you are ignoring is that she chose to have sex. I know that is seems unreasonable... I'm not saying that it is fair, that is just simply how it is. Sex is not a need. Sex is a want. Again, sorry, that is just how it is. That is just a fact. Your argument would only be valid if we kidnapped a woman and impregnated her against her will, and that is obviously not happening so your argument is obviously.

I'm not ignoring anything. I am well aware of that particular subjective argument.

The bold part is debatable, given human nature. I think sexual repression leads to all kinds of emotional imbalances. The fact that women only ovulate 2 days out of the month but are capable of arousal any other day proves that sex has a social function, even though some may prefer to pretend it is taboo; likewise, men have nocturnal emissions even if they don't masturbate, which suggests that sex can be a physiological requirement.

What you are putting forth is a cultural value, not an observation of nature. Sex is as integral to our social nature as it is for the other apes we are related to, it is just our social norming processes that concern expression of said instincts.

But I digress... about the actual issue of women choosing to have sex, again I say so what? The idea of a fetus being a person (which is debatable) is mutually exclusive from a woman deciding to have sex and accidentally getting pregnant. In order to prove that the woman doesn't deserve sexual liberation you will first have to prove that the consequences of her actions result in the "murder" of a "person", and so far you and the others are doing a poor job of that.

Second, although you assert that sex is a want and not a need, that is your cultural and moral value, not mine. Just like fetal personhood is a subjective, psychospiritual value that does not reside in the realm of absolutism, the meaning of sex and sexuality is in the same realm. You cannot state what sex is and then apply those values to everyone. Each person decides for themselves what their sexuality means to them.

Your, "does not make it entitled to live" argument works just fine for fetuses... they are developing humans and all that needs changing is their status just as same sex partners are being discriminated against simply due to the term marriage.

I'm also aware of the fallacious attempts to claim that fetal personhood is equivalent to all other modern civil rights movements. The thing about civil rights is that not only are they determined based on constitutionality (of which fetal personhood has failed to qualify to date), they are also weighed against the the functional and stable needs of society. Gay marriage is being allowed because there are studies and logical support for gays to structure their families as straight people do. Polygamy, for example, does not have the same support.

As it pertains to fetuses, there is plenty of evidence to suggest socioeconomic harm to society by banning abortion. During the era of banned abortion in the U.S., the most common cause of death in women of reproductive age was unsafe abortions. This is fact. Pro-life people often say now, "Well, it's their own fault for seeking abortion." Policy is not formed based on such moral relativism. Government concerns itself with the welfare of society, and women, who are already persons. Fetal personhood remains subjective.

If a fetus was accepted as a human by pro-choice people and people in general, then they would, in fact, be entitled with the right to live.

I actually do accept fetuses as humans since they possess human DNA, but it's the notion of personhood that overrides the rights of the landlord, the mother, that I object to. We abolished slavery partially because of industrialization and partially because blacks proved they were equally competent to whites in life, and fought for their rights. Their personhood was won. The pro-life movement is taking something innocuous and magnifying it to an absurd degree, then claiming moral absolutism, while simultaneously ignoring the psychospiritual questions of other individuals.

Pro-choicers are simply not acknowledging this since they would rather have the right to kill their baby than to be responsible. It is rather sad, really.

I view accepting a pregnancy until birth of a baby and abortion as equal options in taking responsibility. They are simply two different routes. You can spin the personhood argument all day, but there is nothing concrete to prove it. It's why Roe v Wade sided with privacy concerns... because these spiritual questions are of a private nature and have no concrete answers.

If we could answer this question for sure then the matter would have been settled a long time ago. As it stands, it's subjective and people have the right to decide for themselves, and so they should.
 
Last edited:
No....independent in scientific terms means being able to survive without third party biological interference. Independence in science is not the same as independence in social terms.
If dependence and independnence can dominate the killing or not killing decision, is your decision of pro-choice governed by the independence formulated by a sicience version or a social version? If science version overrides, it can be extended to "Just kill, I have the right tool, and the right tool says so!"
Is human society a society shared by responsible human beings or a slaughtering house under absolute power of some butchers?
 
The one and most crucial point that you are ignoring is that she chose to have sex. I know that is seems unreasonable... I'm not saying that it is fair, that is just simply how it is. Sex is not a need. Sex is a want. Again, sorry, that is just how it is. That is just a fact. Your argument would only be valid if we kidnapped a woman and impregnated her against her will, and that is obviously not happening so your argument is obviously.

I don't see how this is a valid argument. She chose to have sex, not get pregnant. I don't see you saying that for example the victims of Columbine "deserved it" (or whatever silly argument you're trying to make) because it was a possibility that they would get shot by going to school.
 
Abortion is a necessary evil. IMHO it does more good than harm.

However, I'm against Roe V. Wade. Abortion should be decided by each state.

I'd like to see the "morning after pill" promoted more. It would help avoid a lot of this, maybe.
 
However, I'm against Roe V. Wade. Abortion should be decided by each state.

I disagree. When it comes to civil rights, it should be nationwide. Women shouldn't have reproductive empowerment in some states and not in others.

I'd like to see the "morning after pill" promoted more. It would help avoid a lot of this, maybe.

Doubtful. The morning after pill doesn't always work, and in some states you require a prescription in order to get it (a lovely obstacle created by the pro-life), which means implantation is more likely.
 
If dependence and independnence can dominate the killing or not killing decision, is your decision of pro-choice governed by the independence formulated by a sicience version or a social version? If science version overrides, it can be extended to "Just kill, I have the right tool, and the right tool says so!"
Is human society a society shared by responsible human beings or a slaughtering house under absolute power of some butchers?

Dont quiet understand what you mean.
 
Well, before the fetal stage, it resides within the mother's body but is not attached to it. After the fetal stage, then what? Any pearls of wisdom on that stage and if it's considered human or not?

After the fetal stage its considered late stage abortion, which i said im against already.
 
They don't share a body; they are just connected to each other. Also, you have seemingly contradicted yourself.

But you are trying to compare a fetus with a fully grown human, so this argument is invalid.

Wait, so you said that science wins and that the fetus is not a human and then quote some random source that states, "There will never be a consensus because of the subjective and unscientific nature of the claim"? Are you serious? How can we even continue debating?

That's not the part i agree with. Although, i do think the "controversial" and undecided nature of the fetus will likely not allow us to reach a consensus.
 
Biological inteference meaning the direct inteference of biological processes in a child.
So you agree that breast feeding an infant is a biological interference because it DIRECTLY feeds the infant milk, the only necessary and sufficient substance for the infant to maintain a life besides air. Cutting off this supply must kill the infant.
 
Dont quiet understand what you mean.

Can I conclude that you let science to determine the decision making of abortion from the following message of yours?
According to science, a human is an independent being, therefore not making the fetus a human.
Is it living? Sure. Is it a human? Is a seed a plant? No.
Therefore i couldn't care less about your "moral" dilemma's. Science prevails as usual.
Yes to abortion
No to late stage abortion.

Your following message defines independence with different meaning in science and social terms:

No....independent in scientific terms means being able to survive without third party biological interference. Independence in science is not the same as independence in social terms.

So, overall, you let science other than social responsibility dominate the decision making of killing; this idea can lead to the extreme of massacre if social responsibility is allowed to be made absent.
 
Oh, of course it's "far from accurate" when you disagree with it. :roll:

Yes, there are non-religious aspects to the movement. I think I willfully acknowledged that several times now. What I am saying is that religion makes up the core and the majority. It is how the movement started and how it maintains steam.

I'm not sure why this point isn't getting through to you. It's like you are programmed to not see what I'm writing.

All that article refers to is post RVW. It makes no mention of any of the groups that were against abortion previous to that. Too be honest, it doesn't matter to me anyways, it matters to you.
 
I don't see how this is a valid argument. She chose to have sex, not get pregnant. I don't see you saying that for example the victims of Columbine "deserved it" (or whatever silly argument you're trying to make) because it was a possibility that they would get shot by going to school.

It is reasonable to assume that if you have sex, there is a chance of getting pregnant. It is not reasonable to assume that if you go to school, there is a chance to getting shot.
 
If she's on birth control and the guy wear a condom and she gets pregnant should she be forced to give birth?

I know the above is unlikely but it is possible.

I'd like an opinion on this.

Thanks.
 
After the fetal stage its considered late stage abortion, which i said im against already.

After the fetal stage it's considered and infant.
 
It's embedded.
At implantation, it burrows into the endometrium, sometimes causing pain and bleeding.
I consider that a variant of being attached.

Though I don't quite agree with you, I would concede the point as close enough if you would admit that a fetus is not a parasite. Otherwise, you are equivocating on both points.
 
I'm not ignoring anything. I am well aware of that particular subjective argument.

The bold part is debatable, given human nature. I think sexual repression leads to all kinds of emotional imbalances. The fact that women only ovulate 2 days out of the month but are capable of arousal any other day proves that sex has a social function, even though some may prefer to pretend it is taboo; likewise, men have nocturnal emissions even if they don't masturbate, which suggests that sex can be a physiological requirement.

Choosing to not have sex is not sexual repression. Being forced to not have sex is.

What you are putting forth is a cultural value, not an observation of nature. Sex is as integral to our social nature as it is for the other apes we are related to, it is just our social norming processes that concern expression of said instincts.

As are you. Sex is a matter of choice, with whom, when, where and why...and why not.

But I digress... about the actual issue of women choosing to have sex, again I say so what? The idea of a fetus being a person (which is debatable) is mutually exclusive from a woman deciding to have sex and accidentally getting pregnant. In order to prove that the woman doesn't deserve sexual liberation you will first have to prove that the consequences of her actions result in the "murder" of a "person", and so far you and the others are doing a poor job of that.

In no case does liberty exist without responsibility. This is no less true with sex.

Second, although you assert that sex is a want and not a need, that is your cultural and moral value, not mine. Just like fetal personhood is a subjective, psychospiritual value that does not reside in the realm of absolutism, the meaning of sex and sexuality is in the same realm. You cannot state what sex is and then apply those values to everyone. Each person decides for themselves what their sexuality means to them.

Unlike breathing, sex is not a requirement for existence. Sex is a biological and social function in humans that is (self)controllable, just like so many of our other biological and social functions.

I'm also aware of the fallacious attempts to claim that fetal personhood is equivalent to all other modern civil rights movements. The thing about civil rights is that not only are they determined based on constitutionality (of which fetal personhood has failed to qualify to date), they are also weighed against the the functional and stable needs of society. Gay marriage is being allowed because there are studies and logical support for gays to structure their families as straight people do. Polygamy, for example, does not have the same support.

The Constitution is a fluid document. Most of the civil rights we now enjoy were not part of the original document. It did include the flexibility to allow the admittance of additional rights as time and humanity progresses to recognize them. You are deciding which values are relevant, and it has nothing to do with the Constitution.

As it pertains to fetuses, there is plenty of evidence to suggest socioeconomic harm to society by banning abortion. During the era of banned abortion in the U.S., the most common cause of death in women of reproductive age was unsafe abortions. This is fact. Pro-life people often say now, "Well, it's their own fault for seeking abortion." Policy is not formed based on such moral relativism. Government concerns itself with the welfare of society, and women, who are already persons. Fetal personhood remains subjective.

This is no more a valid argument than that we should legalize narcotics due to the tendency to die from overdose.

I actually do accept fetuses as humans since they possess human DNA, but it's the notion of personhood that overrides the rights of the landlord, the mother, that I object to. We abolished slavery partially because of industrialization and partially because blacks proved they were equally competent to whites in life, and fought for their rights. Their personhood was won. The pro-life movement is taking something innocuous and magnifying it to an absurd degree, then claiming moral absolutism, while simultaneously ignoring the psychospiritual questions of other individuals.

In what other instance is killing a human being for infringing on your rights legal? Can you kill a tenant if they stop paying you rent.

I view accepting a pregnancy until birth of a baby and abortion as equal options in taking responsibility. They are simply two different routes. You can spin the personhood argument all day, but there is nothing concrete to prove it. It's why Roe v Wade sided with privacy concerns... because these spiritual questions are of a private nature and have no concrete answers.

I don't.
 
Yes, its called late stage abortion and its wrong.

If it has not been born than it is in the fetal stage. A late stage abortion is aborting a fetus late in pregnancy....
 
Choosing to not have sex is not sexual repression. Being forced to not have sex is.

Your opinion. Which you are entitled to. As am I.

Hence pro-choice.

mac said:
As are you. Sex is a matter of choice, with whom, when, where and why...and why not.


Your opinion. Which you are entitled to. As am I.

Hence pro-choice.

Getting the picture yet?

mac said:
In no case does liberty exist without responsibility. This is no less true with sex.

Abortion is taking responsibility for sex, just as deciding to have the baby is. My opinion, which I am entitled to.

Hence pro-choice.

mac said:
Unlike breathing, sex is not a requirement for existence. Sex is a biological and social function in humans that is (self)controllable, just like so many of our other biological and social functions.


Your opinion. Which you are entitled to. As am I.

Hence pro-choice.

How can you pretend that your ideas are less subjective and morally relativistic than mine?

mac said:
The Constitution is a fluid document. Most of the civil rights we now enjoy were not part of the original document. It did include the flexibility to allow the admittance of additional rights as time and humanity progresses to recognize them. You are deciding which values are relevant, and it has nothing to do with the Constitution.

It's been 50 years. Fetuses are not going to be granted fetal personhood, and even if by some miracle the pro-life crowd weasels its way into getting court approval, such as by putting a favored judge on the bench, women will still abort.

You still haven't addressed my statistic. During the abortion ban era, the most common cause of death among women of reproduction age was medically unsafe abortion.

How much blood do you want on your hands?

mac said:
This is no more a valid argument than that we should legalize narcotics due to the tendency to die from overdose.

Apples and oranges.

Nice try though.

mac said:
In what other instance is killing a human being for infringing on your rights legal? Can you kill a tenant if they stop paying you rent.

In what other instances can a human being extract resources from a woman's body against her will? None.

A fetus may be alive, but it's not conscious. You fight for its right to live, but the fetus itself doesn't care. It's not even aware of its own existence, of pain, of suffering, of anything. Why should I grant it rights en par with mine? It's disposable, like any body tissue.

mac said:

Great. So exercise your right to your opinion and don't get an abortion.

Stop infringing on the rights of others to decide what this issue means to them. You don't have absolute, objective answers, just moral relativism. The entire issue is morally relativistic.

Your say is not greater than mine. :2wave:
 
How can you pretend that your ideas are less subjective and morally relativistic than mine?

I've never said my opinion is more or less subjective and/or morally relativistic than yours. I'm just glad you finally understand that your's is.

It's been 50 years. Fetuses are not going to be granted fetal personhood, and even if by some miracle the pro-life crowd weasels its way into getting court approval, such as by putting a favored judge on the bench, women will still abort.

Here's to hope!

You still haven't addressed my statistic. During the abortion ban era, the most common cause of death among women of reproduction age was medically unsafe abortion.

How much blood do you want on your hands?

Didn't you say something earlier about emotional arguments? Hmmm, yes I think you did.

Apples and oranges.

Nice try though.

Nope, you don't legalize something just because people will still do it if illegal.

In what other instances can a human being extract resources from a woman's body against her will? None.

Ever heard of organ farming? It happens, look it up. And not just to women.

A fetus may be alive, but it's not conscious. You fight for its right to live, but the fetus itself doesn't care. It's not even aware of its own existence, of pain, of suffering, of anything. Why should I grant it rights en par with mine? It's disposable, like any body tissue.

I can make that same argument for any number of instances with persons born. Try again.

Great. So exercise your right to your opinion and don't get an abortion.

I am exercising my right to free speech. Look that one up.

Stop infringing on the rights of others to decide what this issue means to them. You don't have absolute, objective answers, just moral relativism. The entire issue is morally relativistic.

How exactly is what I am doing infringing on anyone's rights?

Your say is not greater than mine. :2wave:

Ditto. The only difference is that I never claimed it was. You on the other hand have repeatedly.
 
Back
Top Bottom