Time to tax capital gains as ordinary inc [W167]

[Dickieboy]

which was our birth announcement and nothing more.

But weren't you the one who delegitimized the Preamble as it failed to garner ratification? If so how is it not equally 'nothing more'?

 

[csbrown28]

A government that is stealing from some to give to others is not protecting its citizens.

So taking money from you to provide for defense is stealing?

If it's not then I've just debunked your statement. It means,at the very least, that taking from some to use under certain circumstances is acceptable. Now in order to determine the circumstances one has to step back and ask what is to be accomplished?

 

[head of joaquin]

Of course my suggested flat rate tax scheme is based upon net income and not gross income. However, for most people who just work a regular job, it's really not that tricky to compute net income.

Well, but that's the point -- 90% of Americans have no problem filling out their tax return. Taking away their deductions don't make things any simpler -- it just takes away a benefit.

Deductions do matter to those who have DBAs and report business income on their Schedule C. You simply have to net income if you're running a business. You can't take away those business deductions: they would go bankrupt in a year.

So, it still not clear to me what problem you're trying to solve by a flat tax. It won't help the 90% of American who work for a living (it would harm them if you really applied it to them). It isn't practical for those that have businesses -- you can't tax gross income, they'd go bankrupt. And it would be a tax reduction for the superwealthy who live off investment.

So what does it accomplish?

 

[haymarket]

The preamble confirms what I said.

Furthermore

What you quoted is not the Constitution.

 

[haymarket]

But weren't you the one who delegitimized the Preamble as it failed to garner ratification? If so how is it not equally 'nothing more'?

You should read Pauline Maier



American Scripture: Making the Declaration of Independence: Pauline Maier: 9780679779087: Amazon.com: Books

She has done extensive research about the DofInd and she points out that after it was written and announced that it basically vanished from the national scene in importance for many years. And even then it was used mainly for partisan poitical purposes by the supporters of Jefferson. It served a very utilitarian purpose and was then replaced by the far more important Constitution. It was not elevated to the romanticized ideal it has become in the minds of many until decades later.

 

[haymarket]

Yeah, voted on and signed by some of the very men who established the Constitution. And they were DULY appointed to do so.

Its two very very very different things. One - the Declaration - is a birth announcement with a one time purpose that was achieved and then it ceased to have any real day to day significance especially upon the structure and power of the government. the other - the Constitution - is the very foundation and bible of our American government.

 

[Gipper]

Hah. I'd laugh if it wasn't so damn sad.

You actually think the ordinary working person is taking no risk with their income? Seriously?


One serious injury or illness or auto breakdown or house problem can ruin their budget for the month and put them behind on bills... maybe enough that stuff gets turned off, like power.

In a "right to work" state like mine, I can be fired any time for no reason at all... and in case you haven't noticed, decent blue-collar jobs are not exactly growing on trees.


A few months with no job and you can lose everything: house, car, insurance coverage... then try getting a job when you have no phone or address...


So pardon me if I don't cry real tears for the risks George Soros takes with his billions in investments.

I am saying that, if you work, you will get a paycheck (barring extremely peculiar positions). If you work 40 hours somewhere, do you wonder if your paycheck is waiting for you? No you don't. You work your 40, and your income is immediately recognizable and realizable. You know exactly what you're going to get. If you make 20 bucks an hour and work 40 hours, you expect a check for 800 dollars (gross) without exception. You never wonder if it's 820 or 760 or who knows. You work, you get paid. It's that simple.

That's what I mean about risk. I'm speaking from strict financial principle here, not subjective terms.

 

[Gardener]

I am saying that, if you work, you will get a paycheck (barring extremely peculiar positions). .

Gipper, you of all people should know that when you request extremely peculiar positions, you always have to pay even more.

 

[Gipper]

Gipper, you of all people should know that when you request extremely peculiar positions, you always have to pay even more.

Huk huk huk.

 

[head of joaquin]

What you quoted is not the Constitution.

Confusing the Declaration of Independence with the Constitution is a constant leitmotif of tea party types, especially ones who claim they are experts in what the Constitution says. They can't even get the right document.

 

[Gipper]

Well, but that's the point -- 90% of Americans have no problem filling out their tax return. Taking away their deductions don't make things any simpler -- it just takes away a benefit.

Deductions do matter to those who have DBAs and report business income on their Schedule C. You simply have to net income if you're running a business. You can't take away those business deductions: they would go bankrupt in a year.

So, it still not clear to me what problem you're trying to solve by a flat tax. It won't help the 90% of American who work for a living (it would harm them if you really applied it to them). It isn't practical for those that have businesses -- you can't tax gross income, they'd go bankrupt. And it would be a tax reduction for the superwealthy who live off investment.

So what does it accomplish?

Have you ever done a tax return? Your post indicates that you haven't. The idea that 90% of Americans file EZs and don't itemize is laughable.

 

[haymarket]

Confusing the Declaration of Independence with the Constitution is a constant leitmotif of tea party types, especially ones who claim they are experts in what the Constitution says. They can't even get the right document.

Amen. Very well said.

I wish I had a dollar for every idiot who ever wanted to talk about their Constitutional right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

 

[head of joaquin]

Have you ever done a tax return? Your post indicates that you haven't. The idea that 90% of Americans file EZs and don't itemize is laughable.

Jesus, your ignorance of basic tax and accounting concepts is appalling.

Whoosh right over your head: people like deductions and want them. They reflect economic reality and good public policy. And in fact it takes about 30 minutes to fill out a 1040 for the vast majority of Americans.

If you don't like your deductions and they're too hard for you to figure out, don't take them. Leave mine alone.

 

[Gipper]

Jesus, your ignorance of basic tax and accounting concepts is appalling.

Whoosh right over your head: people like deductions and want them. They reflect economic reality and good public policy. And in fact it takes about 30 minutes to fill out a 1040 for the vast majority of Americans.

If you don't like your deductions and they're too hard for you to figure out, don't take them. Leave mine alone.

This is beyond comical. Thank you.

I've forgotten more about income taxation than you'll ever know - and the idea that you think the overwhelming majority of Americans know what is deductible and what isn't is in another realm of funny.

 

[head of joaquin]

This is beyond comical. Thank you.

I've forgotten more about income taxation than you'll ever know - and the idea that you think the overwhelming majority of Americans know what is deductible and what isn't is in another realm of funny.

Hey, a nonresponse. Of course.

Meanwhile, if you don't like deductions or are too mentally handicapped to figure yours out, don't take them. Let the rest of us do so, however. Deductions are good things and reflect economic reality. Only a tea partier would think otherwise.

Tax and accounting concepts are not your friend.

 

[Gipper]

Hey, a nonresponse. Of course.

Meanwhile, if you don't like deductions or are too mentally handicapped to figure yours out, don't take them. Let the rest of us do so, however. Deductions are good things and reflect economic reality. Only a tea partier would think otherwise.

Tax and accounting concepts are not your friend.

I know what is deductible and what is not. People like you pay people like me to do that for them.

 

[head of joaquin]

I know what is deductible and what is not. People like you pay people like me to do that for them.

So if you don't want to take your deductions (or you can't do the math) don't take them. Nobody forces you to take deductions.

Leave the rest of America alone. Rational taxpayers like deductions since they reflect economic reality and benefit them.

You don't seem to understand this basic tax and accounting principle.

 

[jonny5]

So taking money from you to provide for defense is stealing?

If it's not then I've just debunked your statement. It means,at the very least, that taking from some to use under certain circumstances is acceptable. Now in order to determine the circumstances one has to step back and ask what is to be accomplished?

Taking money from me without my consent, and then giving it to other, without my consent, is stealing.

 

[jonny5]

What you quoted is not the Constitution.

So what? Its an example of the purposes of govt. Youre the one who mentioned the constitution, not me.

The purpose of govt is to protect individuals rights to life and liberty

 

[jonny5]

Its two very very very different things. One - the Declaration - is a birth announcement with a one time purpose that was achieved and then it ceased to have any real day to day significance especially upon the structure and power of the government. the other - the Constitution - is the very foundation and bible of our American government.

Its not a birth announcement. Its a declaration of grievances and statement of purpose. It the foundation of the constitution.

 

[csbrown28]

Taking money from me without my consent, and then giving it to other, without my consent, is stealing.

So do you consent to having your money taken to provide national defense?

 

[imagep]

Well, but that's the point -- 90% of Americans have no problem filling out their tax return. Taking away their deductions don't make things any simpler -- it just takes away a benefit.

$400,000 worth of standardized deduction isn't enough?

Deductions do matter to those who have DBAs and report business income on their Schedule C. You simply have to net income if you're running a business. You can't take away those business deductions: they would go bankrupt in a year.

I own two businesses, one is filed on a Schedule C, I have a good understanding of accounting and preparing income taxes. Those aren't deductions from income, they are business expenses that are subtracted from business revenue. I think that this is obvious, and some of you guys are playing semantic games.

So, it still not clear to me what problem you're trying to solve by a flat tax.

It would appease those on the far right, while creating an income taxless environment for 99% of Americans.

It won't help the 90% of American who work for a living (it would harm them if you really applied it to them). It isn't practical for those that have businesses -- you can't tax gross income, they'd go bankrupt. And it would be a tax reduction for the superwealthy who live off investment.

So not having to pay or even file an income tax form wouldn't benefit most Americans? Rediculous. And it is much more practical for those who have businesses than our tax system is now. The would obviously get to deduct the same business operating expenses from their business revenue to result in a net taxable income figure - just like they do now, except for most small business owners wouldn't even have to file a personal income tax because they wouldn't owe anything.

I'm not sure where you guys came up with this concept that a flat tax would apply to gross business income. I didn't suggest that, and it's an idea that is so ludicrous that I find it hard to believe that anyone would even for one second believe that it would be the case. A dollar of business revenue is not the same as a dollar of income. I thought you were a tax attorney and understood accounting concepts?

So what does it accomplish?

1) It simplifies our lives.
2) It makes the income tax system much more progressive
3) It should be a compromise that is politically viable as it lowers everyones taxes, without letting the rich totally off the hook.

 

[imagep]

Have you ever done a tax return? Your post indicates that you haven't. The idea that 90% of Americans file EZs and don't itemize is laughable.

I believe he has in the past claimed to be a tax attorney. Yea, I am finding some of his posts really bizare for a tax attorney.

 

[Gipper]

I believe he has in the past claimed to be a tax attorney. Yea, I am finding some of his posts really bizare for a tax attorney.

Putting it lightly.

He rather embarrassed himself on this thread.

 

[imagep]

Jesus, your ignorance of basic tax and accounting concepts is appalling.

Whoosh right over your head: people like deductions and want them. They reflect economic reality and good public policy. And in fact it takes about 30 minutes to fill out a 1040 for the vast majority of Americans.

If you don't like your deductions and they're too hard for you to figure out, don't take them. Leave mine alone.

OK, now I get it.

YOU like the existence of a complicated tax system because you make your living from it. Geesh, how could I have not recognized that earlier.

PEOPLE, other than accountants, tax attorneys, and IRS employees do not like complicated tax systems and don't even enjoy filling out their returns. I do my own tax returns and accounting, but I promise I don't like having to scrounge for deductions any more than I like having to fill out the form or sign my name to the check.

Your viewpoint is distorted by personal bias.