This is the sort of crap that pisses me off. "How to get hormones as a minor without your parents."

[Ug make hammer]

Either way, it's very true that kids all over the country are coming home a different gender. Who doesn't have a friend who woke up one day and their son was suddenly female? It happens ALL the time. It's sick. It's 10 o'clock: do you know where you child's testosterone levels are at?

I had a single parent family for a few years in my teens, and the single parent was Dad. There is no way possible he didn't notice me wearing girls' clothes around the house, and he only got Parental about it when I wanted to wear a sleeveless shirt to the school prom. You know what he said? "I can't understand why you want to look tough". In other words, cross-dressing was so far outside what he could understand, that he was in denial about the changes I was going through.

Perfectly normal male hormones btw. I just didn't like what nature was doing to me, and I was rebelling against it.

The "problem" shook down when I dropped out of college and left home. My housemates included a tough guy who I didn't want making any moves on me, so I stopped dressing up except in the secrecy of my room. I answered the door to a friend one time, with a blouse and a skirt, and makeup on. It was really awkward, poor fellow could barely smoke a pipe let alone make conversation.

Many years later I indulged my penchant for cross-dressing, in public. But it wasn't the same. When I realized that real danger was what was turning me on, I gave that up too. Now I'm just a dandy: a little pink collar showing, or a woman's jacket that suggests bits I don't really have. I have never considered myself "in transition" only a cross dresser.

I'm particularly sympathetic to underage people who want hormone blockers because that's the stage of my own life where everything went wrong. The entire human race would be happier and better able to relate to each other regardless of gender, if puberty began at 16 instead of 12. All the talk of "the brain is not mature until 25" just makes me more sure of this.

 

[Mustachio]

They prescribe on the first visit without any mental health consult. They have follow up visits to ensure the prescription is the correct dosage, etc.

So, she is absolutely correct. There are also plenty of people confirming this is accurate, as they had taken advantage of it..

What about in the 25 states that have passed bills making it illegal for anyone under the age of 18 to receive gender reassignment surgery at all in any case?

Considering that’s true it’s very hard to believe you have read anything at all about this subject

 

[Mustachio]

I had a single parent family for a few years in my teens, and the single parent was Dad. There is no way possible he didn't notice me wearing girls' clothes around the house, and he only got Parental about it when I wanted to wear a sleeveless shirt to the school prom. You know what he said? "I can't understand why you want to look tough". In other words, cross-dressing was so far outside what he could understand, that he was in denial about the changes I was going through.

Perfectly normal male hormones btw. I just didn't like what nature was doing to me, and I was rebelling against it.

The "problem" shook down when I dropped out of college and left home. My housemates included a tough guy who I didn't want making any moves on me, so I stopped dressing up except in the secrecy of my room. I answered the door to a friend one time, with a blouse and a skirt, and makeup on. It was really awkward, poor fellow could barely smoke a pipe let alone make conversation.

Many years later I indulged my penchant for cross-dressing, in public. But it wasn't the same. When I realized that real danger was what was turning me on, I gave that up too. Now I'm just a dandy: a little pink collar showing, or a woman's jacket that suggests bits I don't really have. I have never considered myself "in transition" only a cross dresser.

I'm particularly sympathetic to underage people who want hormone blockers because that's the stage of my own life where everything went wrong. The entire human race would be happier and better able to relate to each other regardless of gender, if puberty began at 16 instead of 12. All the talk of "the brain is not mature until 25" just makes me more sure of this.

And the people you were replying to are not talking about actual hormone therapy, they are talking about puberty blockers and even those are not given on the first visit and even those are not given to anyone under the age of 18 without parental consent and even then half of the states have made that illegal. Maybe it is in bad taste but I thought it was very funny to imagine a conservative mother waking up to find out that her son had turned into a female overnight. I imagine that is a widespread, irrational and hilarious (because it’s absolutely ridiculous) fear.

My brother used to cross dress and perform portions of the Rocky horror picture show for the neighbors and while I admired his fearlessness I do recall his accessories were a little matchy. I wasn’t / am not glbtq but it definitely was a slippery slope into meatloaf - bat out of hell is right! It was like being blind and disoriented in a realm of infinite to torture- or at least “i can do anything for love” feels infinite

 

[Ug make hammer]

What about in the 25 states that have passed bills making it illegal for anyone under the age of 18 to receive gender reassignment surgery at all in any case?

Considering that’s true it’s very hard to believe you have read anything at all about this subject

I must confess, it's not easy reading.

After some early schooling in Christianity (I mean literally schooling, it was a subject in school and bled into other subjects like English) I was militantly atheist. But then as a young adult, I found some truth in Daoism. The idea that the morally easiest path is the best, regardless of being punished by others or giving up opportunities, made a permanent mark on me. Perhaps there was some overlap there, with Christianity. They are both humble philosophies which excuse one from trying to solve social problems.

Psychiatry in the US seems oriented to two things: a state of mind is bad and should be corrected, if it causes anguish to the patient. But also, it is bad and should be corrected, if it causes difficulties in relating to others. I agree with the first, of course: anyone who is "out of control" to the extent that they are unhappy in themselves, cannot bear to be alone, feels the need to push their problems onto other people, yes of course they should get therapy. But the second aspect is more contentious.

Young people who are biologically male but identify as female (or vice versa) should not have to do anything to make themselves more acceptable to others. "Problems relating to others" are not in any way their fault. Bear in mind that they're probably still living in the gross parody of adult society which is middle school or high school. Of course I'm not suggesting they hang around with adults and try to form their sexualities in that society (because that violates other codes) but the "morally easiest path" is just to avoid sexual urges and gross sexual dimorphism, by using hormone blockers and remaining biologically children, until they are old enough to have got out from under parental influences, developed young-adult skills of decision making, and are able to make an informed decision about best friends, hormones, and surgery.

There's a curve of "maturity" which is mental. Practice and self instruction makes children and young adults better at thinking. But there is an overlay on this: demands made by the child's environment, which quicken or in some cases retard the development of thinking ability. When a child becomes more interested in the attention of potential sexual partners, than in school or other study, it can actually reverse the progress they have made before then. Most obviously with girls, but with boys also. Consider the male bully or jock, who is respected for being bad at everything except bullying or sport.

Puberty is a "quickening" of mental maturity, it's the "demand" side of development, which in modern society comes way too young. If we put all kids on blockers, then I think we'd get much better life outcomes for all of them, and probably much more consistent TER's too.

 

[Ug make hammer]

And the people you were replying to are not talking about actual hormone therapy, they are talking about puberty blockers and even those are not given on the first visit and even those are not given to anyone under the age of 18 without parental consent and even then half of the states have made that illegal. Maybe it is in bad taste but I thought it was very funny to imagine a conservative mother waking up to find out that her son had turned into a female overnight. I imagine that is a widespread, irrational and hilarious (because it’s absolutely ridiculous) fear.

My brother used to cross dress and perform portions of the Rocky horror picture show for the neighbors and while I admired his fearlessness I do recall his accessories were a little matchy. I wasn’t / am not glbtq but it definitely was a slippery slope into meatloaf - bat out of hell is right! It was like being blind and disoriented in a realm of infinite to torture- or at least “i can do anything for love” feels infinite

Meatloaf was a great song-writer I can agree. I heard "bat out of hell" and "heaven by the dashboard light" quite a lot on the radio before I ever saw pictures of the guy, and it really turned me around on fat people. Fat people can be sexy too!

Of course, being fat is a body type you can change by willpower or by surgery (or a bit of both) but it did enlighten me to discover on my sister's TV that a very sexy songwriter and vocalist might have such an unfashionable body. It gave me a kind of hope.

I think we should make a BIG distinction between puberty blockers, and hormones. The worst that can happen with blockers is that the parents start to worry when the kid is 14 and "not developing". If the parents actually care at all, they will find out. Hormones without parental knowledge could cause all kinds of problems, like the parents thinking the kid is gay when they're not.

 

[buck]

What about in the 25 states that have passed bills making it illegal for anyone under the age of 18 to receive gender reassignment surgery at all in any case?

Considering that’s true it’s very hard to believe you have read anything at all about this subject

We were talking of hormones, not surgery.

But, sure... which 25 states have made surgery "illegal for anyone under 18"? It seems a great thing, so fingers crossed..

 

[Renae]

Do you go looking for random websites that piss you off? I mean you could probably find a website explaining how to make a gun for violent criminals no longer able to buy a gun. Would that piss you off too?

News aggregator that covers a wide net of stories. Some catch my eye.

 

[Ug make hammer]

News aggregator that covers a wide net of stories. Some catch my eye.

And apparently, piss you off.

If it's not a personal question, have the replies in this thread changed your mind a bit?

 

[Ug make hammer]

So I have a friend, and this friend has a son. Last I met them, the son was 16 which is the age of consent here.

I'm deliberately not mentioning other children my friend might have. This is to protect his identity.

The son had just come back from his 16th birthday party, which significantly was not at Dad's house. I guess it was at Mom's house. The son had new pink nails, probably false nails because they were all the same length (going by experience here, it's hard to keep half inch nails without them breaking), in addition to his rather girly mode of dress which I knew him to usually have.

Dad was really angry, I could tell. He knew his son was gay, and he thought he was OK with that. In fact, my friend and I very nearly had sex one night when we were stoked, but I pulled out of it because my friend seemed a bit conflicted, so I didn't want to wreck our friendship ... and also we were stoked so I wasn't sure about consent. Anyway I was quite sure my friend wasn't a homophobe, but he had a lot of issues with his son being gay. And particularly with him being openly gay, or effete. Part of it is that he worried for him, since dad (my friend) grew up in a homophobic environment.

I hope it all worked out for them. I had to break off the friendship (and some others) because of legal trouble I got into. But just for a while there I got a deep insight into how being transgender and being gay are whole different things. There's a point beyond which a "gender queer" young person can't even count on gay/bi people to take their side. Even if that gay/bi person is their dad.

And yeah, I do wish I could have been there for the boy. But he was 16 and I was 50 something, so it would have been creepy.

 

[buck]

Before you visit, please call to make an appointment and request gender affirming hormone therapy. In most cases your clinician will be able to prescribe hormones the same day as your first visit. No letter from a mental health provider is required. If you’re starting gender affirming hormone therapy, you’ll have an initial appointment with baseline lab work (blood draw) and then follow-up appointments. * *Appointments/Labs: • Follow-up schedule: If you’re starting gender affirming hormone therapy, you’ll have an initial appointment and lab work. • After that we must see you for 3 month, 6 month and 12 month follow-up appointments with lab work and to check in with you and make sure you are getting desired effects and not having negative side effects. It’s your responsibility to call to schedule these appointments. • We may make changes to your medications based on your feedback and lab results. • If everything is stable and you’re happy with your medications, after your 12 month visit we must see you once yearly for a follow-up appointment and labs, unless you’d like to come in sooner.

That it doesn't say whether a psych is present, does not prove one way or the other. Note however that an appointment is REQUIRED, this strongly implies more professional care than just the day nurse.

Now maybe you have some anecdotal evidence ("plenty of people") and if so, put it. If all you mean is "there are two of us and only one of you, so you're wrong" then read the ) damn page you're pretending to have read.

The website states exactly what is happening. "hormones available first visit" and "no mental health provider required".

They specify what will be occurring at the follow up visits. You must think they are lying about it and reuiqing even more.

So, just curious, what is it that you think happens at the follow up visits to negate their statement of "first visits hormones" and "no mental health provider" required?

 

[Ug make hammer]

The website states exactly what is happening. "hormones available first visit" and "no mental health provider required".

They specify what will be occurring at the follow up visits. You must think they are lying about it and reuiqing even more.

So, just curious, what is it that you think happens at the follow up visits to negate their statement of "first visits hormones" and "no mental health provider" required?

I just quoted the damn website and you still think it says something else. Giving up on you now.

 

[Ug make hammer]

Since I just gave away my age, I might as well link to some geezer rock

It's The Pretenders singing a Bob Dylan song.

 

[Schism]

This is such a weird line from conservatives. They act as if it's unnatural for teenagers to have secrets from their parents.

^^ Look at how the left misrepresent the difference between kids having benign secrets, and adults aiding and abetting gender transformations under the cover of deception, lies, and secrecy.

 

[Geoist]

^^ Look at how the left misrepresent the difference between kids having benign secrets, and adults aiding and abetting gender transformations under the cover of deception, lies, and secrecy.

And some secrets are bigger than others. It is best when teens don't have to hide such information from parents but when you have abusive/bigoted parents then a teen may have no choice. But you did not even make a distinction. You condemned any secrets from parents/guardians. Which, once again, is a very weird conservative talking point I see often.

 

[Ug make hammer]

^^ Look at how the left misrepresent the difference between kids having benign secrets, and adults aiding and abetting gender transformations under the cover of deception, lies, and secrecy.

Oh right. "Benign secrets" like how uncle Frank molested them for ten years.

Transgender children have likely experimented with modes of dress, with gender roles between children and (shock) towards their parents. They have likely experimented with other children, which only a very stupid parent would not have noticed.

Long before puberty, these kids know if their parents can handle it or not. Some parents are ****ing useless to a transgender child, and they will know that LONG before the age of 18.

But to people like you, it's "my house, my rules" and kids need permission for everything.

And you wonder why they leave home.

 

[Schism]

And some secrets are bigger than others. It is best when teens don't have to hide such information from parents but when you have abusive/bigoted parents then a teen may have no choice. But you did not even make a distinction. You condemned any secrets from parents/guardians. Which, once again, is a very weird conservative talking point I see often.

I guess you support adult teacher-minor student sex and all the lies and deception involved as well.

No thanks.

 

[Geoist]

I guess you support adult teacher-minor student sex and all the lies and deception involved as well.

No thanks.

And where did I say that?

 

[Ug make hammer]

And some secrets are bigger than others. It is best when teens don't have to hide such information from parents but when you have abusive/bigoted parents then a teen may have no choice. But you did not even make a distinction. You condemned any secrets from parents/guardians. Which, once again, is a very weird conservative talking point I see often.

As an under-18 I was always open to my parents about my drug use. It stressed the hell out of them, we argued, so it stressed the hell out of me too. But I didn't stop. When my dad offered me breakfast I would still say "up all night on speed, no appetite but thanks Dad" and I'd get a lecture later.

I really respect my parents (and particularly Dad who was my custodial) for bearing with that and not putting the hammer down. If he had said "my house my rules" I would have walked with the clothes on my back. I guess he knew that.

Anyway, I think hormones should be treated just like drugs. If you can't get them from a doctor you can get them from a street dealer. Parents should remain involved, and be as much as they can, the best source of advice to a young person. But on something so fundamental as gender they should recognize the limits and self-blinding of their own understanding. I would like them to sit in, silently, on gender counselling. And then I think parental love will almost always overcome preconceptions about whether they have a son or a daughter.

It should be easy, but from experience I know it is not. Parents invest a lot of their own self-respect in their children, and sadly that has a strong gender element.

 

[Renae]

And apparently, piss you off.

If it's not a personal question, have the replies in this thread changed your mind a bit?

No, because children should have the greatest of hurdles before moving into this sort of life changing path. Kids, and I have 2, go through phases. I know a number of gals who went through a "tom boy" phase between 10 - 15, and now we're seeing a lot of trans regret FTM of girls who realized they hit that phase and instead of it being treated as normal part of development were rushed, pushed, coerced, encouraged to believe they were suffering from Gender Dysphoria and making really poor life choices not to help them, but to meet a political agenda.

It SERIOUSLY bothers me.

 

[Ug make hammer]

I guess you support adult teacher-minor student sex and all the lies and deception involved as well.

No thanks.

Lies should not be necessary. But unfortunately, some parents are very harsh in trying to make their child conform to their biological sex.

So stand with us, in offering transgender children alternative parenting. If the parents don't like their gender, they should be able to move into small group homes (government families if you will, or late-childhood orphanages if that sits better with you).

Because "my house, my rules" is inhumane when the rule is "you must be a boy" or "you must be a girl"

 

[Ug make hammer]

No, because children should have the greatest of hurdles before moving into this sort of life changing path. Kids, and I have 2, go through phases. I know a number of gals who went through a "tom boy" phase between 10 - 15, and now we're seeing a lot of trans regret FTM of girls who realized they hit that phase and instead of it being treated as normal part of development were rushed, pushed, coerced, encouraged to believe they were suffering from Gender Dysphoria and making really poor life choices not to help them, but to meet a political agenda.

It SERIOUSLY bothers me.

I acknowledge the suffering of those who chose too early, and then had to change back. I'm sure it messes them up.

But what about those denied the change? Are they more or less numerous?

It seriously does come down to that. If there are two or three trans-kids who picked up life as their new gender early, for one who picked up but dropped out, that's still a good result in my opinion.

The teenage years and the twenties "fix" people in their gender, for the simple reason that they have lots of sex. Switching gender and switching again isn't necessarily bad. But spending most of that time as your wrong gender is clearly bad.

May I ask another personal question? It's clear you have sympathy for "failed" transition people (and I do too) but do you resent those who are successful and happy with their transition?

 

[buck]

I just quoted the damn website and you still think it says something else. Giving up on you now.

Right. So, what does the website say about the follow up visits that you believes negates their statement of "first visit hormones" and "no mental health provider"?

Is it that the follow up visits will have more lab work and ensure the hormones (that had been given 1st visit) are working with minimal, negative side effects? Or do you think the website is hiding what they really do?

 

[Renae]

I acknowledge the suffering of those who chose too early, and then had to change back. I'm sure it messes them up.

But what about those denied the change? Are they more or less numerous?

It seriously does come down to that. If there are two or three trans-kids who picked up life as their new gender early, for one who picked up but dropped out, that's still a good result in my opinion.

The teenage years and the twenties "fix" people in their gender, for the simple reason that they have lots of sex. Switching gender and switching again isn't necessarily bad. But spending most of that time as your wrong gender is clearly bad.

May I ask another personal question? It's clear you have sympathy for "failed" transition people (and I do too) but do you resent those who are successful and happy with their transition?

You can always transition, it might be a bit harder, if you start Testosterone as a 12-15 year old girl, have a masectomy... You can't reverse that. Sterility for both FTM and MTF.... I can never grow a beard again, I'm fine with that. But let's say I had been younger and realized this was not the right path for me, and tried to reverse much of what I have done? Masectomy, can't ever have kids, and since I've had plumbing rearranged... yeah that's irriversable.

 

[Ug make hammer]

You can always transition, it might be a bit harder, if you start Testosterone as a 12-15 year old girl, have a masectomy... You can't reverse that.

Actually you can.

Sterility for both FTM and MTF.... I can never grow a beard again, I'm fine with that. But let's say I had been younger and realized this was not the right path for me, and tried to reverse much of what I have done? Masectomy, can't ever have kids, and since I've had plumbing rearranged... yeah that's irriversable.

Being biologically sterile is a big decision, I agree. But it doesn't mean you can never have kids, it just means you can never have them 'naturally'.

Really what you should be looking at is ensuring that every pre-partum transexual gets eggs or sperm frozen. Of course the taxpayer should pay for that, it's not much, and every couple wanting ONE child is a step back towards the ideal of two children per couple. Society is dividing into multi-child families and no-child families, and neither is ideal. Three or four children in a family is OK, particularly if they're widely spaced in years. However the truly old-fashioned family of six or more children is quite bad: child on child abuse is and was rife in such families. Pardon me for propounding the "nuclear family" I spent most of my childhood in, but the point I want to make is that transsexuals can have children too. It just requires a bit of prior spending.

Anyway, you're talking about surgery, not hormones or blockers.

 

[Renae]

Actually you can.



Being biologically sterile is a big decision, I agree. But it doesn't mean you can never have kids, it just means you can never have them 'naturally'.

Really what you should be looking at is ensuring that every pre-partum transexual gets eggs or sperm frozen. Of course the taxpayer should pay for that, it's not much, and every couple wanting ONE child is a step back towards the ideal of two children per couple. Society is dividing into multi-child families and no-child families, and neither is ideal. Three or four children in a family is OK, particularly if they're widely spaced in years. However the truly old-fashioned family of six or more children is quite bad: child on child abuse is and was rife in such families. Pardon me for propounding the "nuclear family" I spent most of my childhood in, but the point I want to make is that transsexuals can have children too. It just requires a bit of prior spending.

Anyway, you're talking about surgery, not hormones or blockers.

Implants aren't the same, the nerve damages done... here's a truth, I am daily in agony, from a nerve damaged below the belt. You think someone under 18 really understands that risk?