Third night of unrest in Sweden over far-right anti-Islam rally

[Tigerace117]

No, it's not. People can destroy a book they own. Don't like it? Tough. It's not your book. You don't get a say in what happens to it.


Someone on the receiving end of violence is a victim. This seems pretty straightforward. It breaks the limits of reasonable thought to suggest that a person destroying a book they own is deserving of a violent reaction.


I'm defending the right of people to do what they wish with their own property and not be assaulted because of it. That includes your Muslims-with-an-altar example. Which I told you already, but for some reason you decided to ignore that.

Yes, it is. They knew full well that people would be outraged by their desecration of said religious texts, and did it precisely to provoke said outrage.

Only in Trump cult world are a bunch of raving bigots who actively incite violence “victims”.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

I'm reminded of the scene from "Manhattan" that goes

I've no idea what any of that is.

if you have any doubts whatsoever that "violence against the despised others" is NOT a core tenet of the Nazi and/or neo-Nazi belief system

And as soon as they do violence upon others, let them have it with both barrels.

Burning a book they own isn't violence.

then I suggest that you actually open your eyes and take a hard look at the ethics of the people who are telling you that.

What? Who's telling me what?

 

[Grizzly Adams]

Yes, it is. They knew full well that people would be outraged by their desecration of said religious texts, and did it precisely to provoke said outrage.

And people should be expected to control their rage in response to non-violent acts. I believe they can. You, apparently, believe the Muslims cannot be expected to control themselves. Yet you insist on suggesting that *I* am the bigot in this conversation.

Only in Trump cult world are a bunch of raving bigots who actively incite violence “victims”.

I never voted for Trump. Not that I think that will put to bed your "Trump cult" bullshit, but I'm saying it anyway.

And no, for the billionth time, destroying your own property isn't violence, and it's not inciting violence.

 

[Bodi]

In Sweden, according to your *P*R*O*O*F* that "Foreigners are allowed to vote", you are partly correct in that they may vote in municipal and county elections. They may not vote at the federal level AND there are other restrictions than simply the 'three year residence' one.

I am 100% correct. The claim was made that foreigners can not vote. I showed that they can vote.

 

[Tigerace117]

And people should be expected to control their rage in response to non-violent acts. I believe they can. You, apparently, believe the Muslims cannot be expected to control themselves. Yet you insist on suggesting that *I* am the bigot in this conversation.


I never voted for Trump. Not that I think that will put to bed your "Trump cult" bullshit, but I'm saying it anyway.

And no, for the billionth time, destroying your own property isn't violence, and it's not inciting violence.

Oh look, more tearful sobbing about how those who incite violence are somehow “victims” of what they purposefully tried to unleash.

What a crock of shit Funny how many folks who agree with everything the Trump cult blathers suddenly swear up, down, and sideways they never supported him

Nobody’s buying it bud.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

Oh look, more tearful sobbing about how those who incite violence are somehow “victims” of what they purposefully tried to unleash.

Destroying your own property is not inciting anything. Why don't you sit down and come up with a list of things people own that they are not allowed to destroy without being subjected to (in your warped view) "justified" violence? I'm curious to see what you pick, and how much you want to restrict people's property rights.

What a crock of shit

Congratulations, you have correctly summarized your position on this matter.

 

[Court Jester]

Quite right "mostly young people" and "Murdering Muslim Fanatics" mean exactly the same thing. That is why the draft protests in the US were all populated by "Murdering Muslim Fanatics".

That is one big twisted ball of spaghetti logic you are slinging there TU.

 

[Tigerace117]

Destroying your own property is not inciting anything. Why don't you sit down and come up with a list of things people own that they are not allowed to destroy without being subjected to (in your warped view) "justified" violence? I'm curious to see what you pick, and how much you want to restrict people's property rights.


Congratulations, you have correctly summarized your position on this matter.

Desecrating religious texts with the specific purpose of inciting violence, as your heroes did, does not make them “victims”.

Hate to break it to you.

 

[Court Jester]

In this country, people regularly protest neo Nazi groups.

I’m not sure why you would want to legitimize them by ttying to pretend that they’re victims.

Well, I guess today once again is school a liberal in logic day...

I never took a position on the beliefs which the group who decided to burn Korans may have. All I said was that THEIR act of protest was NOT illegal. It is actually protected free speech in Sweden. So, when the angry offended Muslims went on a rampage and burned cars and vandalized business, then it was THEY who were the ONLY ONES committing crimes.

Your 'feelings' aside, there was no violation of any law from burning a Koran. Look at it this way: What if a group decided to burn a Nazi flag in a demonstration, because they don't like Nazis--- who does?. And in Sweden that would be a legal form of free expression to do that. But then in response to having a Nazi flag burned, a group of neo-Nazis got angry, went on a rampage; burned police cars and businesses, and threw rocks at people. Now are you beginning to get it? To understand that free speech--- no matter how YOU feel about that speech, is protected. What is NOT protected is vandalism and rioting.

I find it facinating how liberals "feel" their way through life, never bothering to aquire those critical thinking skills which should start to become standard as we all age beyond two and three years old. For you to suggest that I was defending Nazi beliefs is utter bullshit. All I said was that they did not violate any laws with burning a Koran, any more than Nazi buying a sandwich at a deli is not a violation of any law.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

I am 100% correct. The claim was made that foreigners can not vote. I showed that they can vote.

Yes, and the claim "All Americans can vote." is equally true.

 

[Bodi]

Yes, and the claim "All Americans can vote." is equally true.

Why are you telling me this?

 

[Grizzly Adams]

Desecrating religious texts with the specific purpose of inciting violence, as your heroes did, does not make them “victims”.

Since you're the one who is continuously espousing the propriety of violence in response to non-violent acts, it sounds like Nazis are far more heroes to you than than they are to me.

And no, destruction of personal property is not incitement to violence.

We're waiting on that list of things people own that they are not allowed to destroy without being subjected to violence.

 

[Tigerace117]

Since you're the one who is continuously espousing the propriety of violence in response to non-violent acts, it sounds like Nazis are far more heroes to you than than they are to me.

And no, destruction of personal property is not incitement to violence.

We're waiting on that list of things people own that they are not allowed to destroy without being subjected to violence.

Oh look, another round of tearful weeping about broken windows. Yawn.

No matter how hard you cry, your bigoted thug heroes aren’t victims bud.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Why are you telling me this?

Because I recognize the difference between "some" and "all" as well as the difference between "in a limited number of cases" and "in all cases" - which you don't appear to be able to do.

 

[Bodi]

Because I recognize the difference between "some" and "all" as well as the difference between "in a limited number of cases" and "in all cases" - which you don't appear to be able to do.

Of course I can... but that was not the argument I was refuting. Somebody said that foreigners CAN NOT VOTE IN SWEDEN.

That is it. That is all I need to refute. They can vote in Sweden. I don't need to address any of your little limiting points.

Anything else or was that too simple?

 

[Court Jester]

Yes, it is. They knew full well that people would be outraged by their desecration of said religious texts, and did it precisely to provoke said outrage.

It is incumbent upon you to articulate which law the Koran burners violated. But don't hurt yourself looking for that law, because there is none.
And since the Koran(s) which were burned did not belong to any of the upset Muslim people; there was ZERO cause for any of them to be
provoked to violence, any "outrage" they may "feel" about a Koran being burned aside.

It could be very well true that some people in Sweden are "outraged" when they see Muslim immigrants who due to their own beliefs refuse to follow
or honor long standing Swedish cultural traditions. But guess what? If the Muslims are not violating any Swedish laws, then there can be no excuse
for any Swede to commit acts of violence against the Muslims whom they feel "provoke" them by their non Swedish and not European traditions.

So, when speaking about feeling provoked, the gate swings both ways. We DO NOT allow acts of violence to occur just because we don't like how
other people think.

Only in Trump cult world are a bunch of raving bigots who actively incite violence “victims”.

Hey Tiggerace, I guess you didn't realize this story occurred in SWEDEN, not exactly a hot bed of Donald Trump supporters. So, why mention Trump here now?

Unhinged is what that sounds like.

 

[Tigerace117]

It is incumbent upon you to articulate which law the Koran burners violated. But don't hurt yourself looking for that law, because there is none.
And since the Koran(s) which were burned did not belong to any of the upset Muslim people; there was ZERO cause for any of them to be
provoked to violence, any "outrage" they may "feel" about a Koran being burned aside.

It could be very well true that some people in Sweden are "outraged" when they see Muslim immigrants who due to their own beliefs refuse to follow
or honor long standing Swedish cultural traditions. But guess what? If the Muslims are not violating any Swedish laws, then there can be no excuse
for any Swede to commit acts of violence against the Muslims whom they feel "provoke" them by their non Swedish and not European traditions.

So, when speaking about feeling provoked, the gate swings both ways. We DO NOT allow acts of violence to occur just because we don't like how
other people think.





Hey Tiggerace, I guess you didn't realize this story occurred in SWEDEN, not exactly a hot bed of Donald Trump supporters. So, why mention Trump here now?

Unhinged is what that sounds like.

Once again, something being technically “legal” doesn’t make it any less vile. Under American “law” denying African Americans their constitutional rights was okay for decades. No matter how desperately you squirm and grasp at straws in hopes of excusing said bigotry, it can’t change the facts.

Oh look, ANOTHER round of you trying to blame minorities for bigotry against them. Guess what bud? You being outraged by Muslims existing just further goes to prove my point.

Unless it’s white Christians committing the violence, in which case conservatives bend over backwards to defend them. Once again, spare us the bullshit.

Because it’s the Swedish far right— and Donnie Draft Dodger has plenty of mouth breathing followers across global far right movements— which makes your tearful weeping meaningless.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

Oh look, another round of tearful weeping about broken windows. Yawn.

No matter how hard you cry, your bigoted thug heroes aren’t victims bud.

I'd rather be concerned over "broken windows" (which apparently is a catch-all term for you to hide and/or minimize the arson) than someone burning a book they own.

Where's that list of yours, "bud?"

 

[Court Jester]

Once again, something being technically “legal” doesn’t make it any less vile.

Moot point. "Vile" is subjective anyway. One person may consider refusing to stand for the National Anthem to be "vile", but it doesn't give that offended person the right to commit violence. All YOU keep doing here is defending the CRIMINALS.

Under American “law” denying African Americans their constitutional rights was okay for decades.

Is this subject about slavery and Jim Crow laws? NO it isn't. If this exchange we are having here right now was taking place in a court of law, the judge would be telling you to sit down and be quiet, or stay on the subject.

No matter how desperately you squirm and grasp at straws in hopes of excusing said bigotry, it can’t change the facts.

I find it ironic that you are accusing me of being "desperate" when everything about your arguments are desperate and illogical,

Oh look, ANOTHER round of you trying to blame minorities for bigotry against them.

Guess what, any bigoted feelings or opinions which some people may have against any group---- including conservative and/or Christian groups is NOT illegal, and is irrelevant to this debate. "Feelings" and opinions are not crimes; ACTS may be crimes, especially violent acts, so big difference.

Guess what bud? You being outraged by Muslims existing just further goes to prove my point.

I'm not outraged that Muslims exist, I couldn't care less that they exist or not. What matters is if they are going to be peaceful and respect our laws, same as anyone else. They are NOT entitled to create their own set of laws in a host nation like it or not. Their grievances which may be supported by some directions in thier so called "holy book" does NOT give them the right to act on them, the same way laws prevent ANY religious group from ANY acts which violate a nation's laws.

Unless it’s white Christians committing the violence, in which case conservatives bend over backwards to defend them. Once again, spare us the bullshit.

LOL, you are so lame in your debating. Show me where Sweden in general has ever supported neo-Nazism, ever? Sweden is about as liberal and progressive as any nation in Europe can be. Sweden has for many decades welcomed refugees from other nations with open arms, allowing them come and partake of not only the freedoms in Sweden, but their very generous (I would argue too generous) social welfare and support systems. And this is how some Muslims which to thank the Swedish people, by rioting and burning because something upset them?

Because it’s the Swedish far right— and Donnie Draft Dodger has plenty of mouth breathing followers across global far right movements— which makes your tearful weeping meaningless.

Donald Trump can't make anyone act a certain way. Each person is responsible for their own actions.

 

[D_NATURED]

Coming from the guy whose “arguments” literally just amount to “I hate religious people” repeated over and over, that’s meaningless.

That's a weak-ass strawman argument. My argument is that I love the first ammendment, nothing more. I wonder if you actually read my opinion based upon your juvenile mischaracterization of my post.

Considering China, a regime which brutally represses religion, is literally actively trying to stamp out Uighur culture in the name of “fighting radical Islam”(a particularly bad joke given that the folks they are throwing in slave labor camps and forcibly sterilizing are totally innocent) which doesn’t seem to bother you one iota....that’s, again, meaningless.

You and China are both wrong. Have you considered that option, oh sanctimonious one?

Claiming that keeping bigots from engaging in bigoted behavior turns a country into a “theocracy” is ludicrous.

Show me where I said anything close to that garbage paraphrase you just shat on this forum. You can't, because all you've got is strawman arguments and pathetic lies.

Almost as ludicrous, in fact, as your fearmongering here.

Wow, dude, way to finish weak. I'm detecting a pattern here.

 

[D_NATURED]

Funnily enough, people don’t like it when you desecrate their religious texts. What a surprise....not.

This is the recurring Tigerace chant. I agree that people don't really like it when you burn the Koran or wipe your ass with a Bible. So what? In America, we are mature enough to accept that some other people have disdain for our "holy" self-promotions. That is what FREEDOM OF CONSCIENCE means in a religiously diverse country. If your religion is dumb, the greater good is served by others being free to challenge it.

When you excuse reactionary violence from the religious, however, you're accepting the desecration of liberty, though, and THAT is inexcusable from someone who should know better.

I propose that TA live in Pakistan for a while and notice how HIS right to his own opinion is oppressed by the resident theocrats. Then, perhaps he'll begin to grasp the wisdom of our system that does not punish people for finding certain ideas distasteful and expressing it non-violently.

 

[Tigerace117]

That's a weak-ass strawman argument. My argument is that I love the first ammendment, nothing more. I wonder if you actually read my opinion based upon your juvenile mischaracterization of my post.



You and China are both wrong. Have you considered that option, oh sanctimonious one?



Show me where I said anything close to that garbage paraphrase you just shat on this forum. You can't, because all you've got is strawman arguments and pathetic lies.



Wow, dude, way to finish weak. I'm detecting a pattern here.

Nope, that’s literally what your arguments amount to: endless shrieks of “I hate religious people, so this is bad/they shouldn’t have this/etc etc etc.”

Gee, then maybe you should try living in the real world for once before you start attempting to make excuses for your preconceived hatreds.

You literally just did and now you are whining about being called out on it, hoping if you double down on the hysteria it’ll deselect from the absurdity of your claim. Noted.

Oh look, more hysteria and posturing in lieu of an actual argument.

 

[Tigerace117]

I'd rather be concerned over "broken windows" (which apparently is a catch-all term for you to hide and/or minimize the arson) than someone burning a book they own.

Where's that list of yours, "bud?"

We’ve already established that you are frantic to defend said bigots’ actions, yes. Hence the endless, frantic hysteria from you.

 

[Tigerace117]

Moot point. "Vile" is subjective anyway. One person may consider refusing to stand for the National Anthem to be "vile", but it doesn't give that offended person the right to commit violence. All YOU keep doing here is defending the CRIMINALS.



Is this subject about slavery and Jim Crow laws? NO it isn't. If this exchange we are having here right now was taking place in a court of law, the judge would be telling you to sit down and be quiet, or stay on the subject.




I find it ironic that you are accusing me of being "desperate" when everything about your arguments are desperate and illogical,

Guess what, any bigoted feelings or opinions which some people may have against any group---- including conservative and/or Christian groups is NOT illegal, and is irrelevant to this debate. "Feelings" and opinions are not crimes; ACTS may be crimes, especially violent acts, so big difference.



I'm not outraged that Muslims exist, I couldn't care less that they exist or not. What matters is if they are going to be peaceful and respect our laws, same as anyone else. They are NOT entitled to create their own set of laws in a host nation like it or not. Their grievances which may be supported by some directions in thier so called "holy book" does NOT give them the right to act on them, the same way laws prevent ANY religious group from ANY acts which violate a nation's laws.




LOL, you are so lame in your debating. Show me where Sweden in general has ever supported neo-Nazism, ever? Sweden is about as liberal and progressive as any nation in Europe can be. Sweden has for many decades welcomed refugees from other nations with open arms, allowing them come and partake of not only the freedoms in Sweden, but their very generous (I would argue too generous) social welfare and support systems. And this is how some Muslims which to thank the Swedish people, by rioting and burning because something upset them?

Donald Trump can't make anyone act a certain way. Each person is responsible for their own actions.

Oh look, MORE desperate attempts to try and excuse the far right thugs’ actions by tearfully moaning about “criminals”. These are literally just the same idiotic talking points that people like you trot out every time a cop extrajudicially kills someone.

Nobody cares bud. Your “courtroom” fantasy is irrelevant, because if there’s one thing this place isn’t, it’s a courtroom.

Guess what bud? Shrieking “it’s not illegal, technically!” is STILL not an excuse for bigotry towards minorities.

Lol suuuuure you aren’t. That’s why you keep trying to defend those who are bigoted towards Muslims, whining about the religion as a whole, and moaning about how “some folks are offended by Muslims not following traditional Swedish norms” and other such garbage.


Perhaps you should educate yourself for once.

Stram Kurs - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The “event” was organized by a bunch of raving bigots(from Denmark, no less) who want to ban Islam outright.

Maybe then you wouldn’t embarrass yourself so constantly.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

We’ve already established that you are frantic to defend said bigots’ actions, yes. Hence the endless, frantic hysteria from you.

"Frantic hysteria?" Please. The frantic nature of desperately trying to minimize arson as "broken windows" in response to someone setting a book they own on fire is all yours.

And yes, bigots have rights too. You'd do well to remember that and support that idea, because someday someone who doesn't like what you have to say might label you a bigot and then invent bullshit crap as to why what you're doing is nothing but bigoted incitement so people offended by your now-bigoted inciting actions can go to town on you.