Things that will never just sound right with gender neutral pronouns...

[Real Korimyr #9]

I would take gender-neural pronouns a lot more seriously if they were not universally heinous bull**** on a linguistic level.

If your "gender neutral" pronoun is a homonym for one of the pre-existing gendered pronouns, you need to leave the wordifying to the experts. If it has a ****ing X in it, for any reason, you need to punch yourself in your gender-neutral genitals and then leave the wordifying to the experts.

We've had the singular they for five hundred years. If that's not good enough for you, your alternative needs to be better.

 

[Nap]

People often bring up, "well, what about countries where the majority power is black". It's important, then, to understand why global context is perspective.

The majority of black votes are cast in Africa. Africa does not have the international presence, geo politically, of Europe or America. That's just reality.



No one said powerless. Let's just recognize reality. Black people cannot escape privilege. Not here, not anywhere.

So where does Asian privilege play into the equation? For instance, Han Chinese are the largest ethnic group and as a world power are on par with America.

If they can not escape privilege, wouldn't that mean they are powerless? It just seems like this entire concept was developed by a guilty white supremacist who views an entire race of people are subjected to a world of white supremacy.

 

[ecofarm]

So where does Asian privilege play into the equation? For instance, Han Chinese are the largest ethnic group and as a world power are on par with America.

An interesting consideration but not on par with America, Europe and Russia together. Population doesn't matter, power is the majority in question.

If they can not escape privilege, wouldn't that mean they are powerless? It just seems like this entire concept was developed by a guilty white supremacist who views an entire race of people are subjected to a world of white supremacy.

Powerless to escape privilege but not powerless as a being. Privilege lowers the success rate, it doesn't make it impossible. A supremacist wouldn't blame the majority power for disparities, he'd blame the minority.

 

[DiAnna]

I've never used Ze, don't know anyone personally that does and it's weird to me that people are actually discussing this.

I've never even heard of this "Ze"; nor have I heard any discussion anywhere about changing the language to "gender neutral pronouns". The only reference link so far in this thread was to an individual's blog, for pity sake, a guy called "Ianchadwick" who is apparently running for deputy mayor in a town I never heard of in a state that doesn't get mentioned.

WTF is the actual basis of this thread, and the urgency of its message, I wonder!

 

[SDET]

I've never even heard of this "Ze"; nor have I heard any discussion anywhere about changing the language to "gender neutral pronouns". The only reference link so far in this thread was to an individual's blog, for pity sake, a guy called "Ianchadwick" who is apparently running for deputy mayor in a town I never heard of in a state that doesn't get mentioned.

WTF is the actual basis of this thread, and the urgency of its message, I wonder!

Ze in short for Jose in Portuguese. The town Zé Doca of is a great place for single guys to meet women.

 

[Nap]

An interesting consideration but not on par with America, Europe and Russia together. Population doesn't matter, power is the majority in question.



Powerless to escape privilege but not powerless as a being. Privilege lowers the success rate, it doesn't make it impossible. A supremacist wouldn't blame the majority power for disparities, he'd blame the minority.

China, India, Japan, North & South Korea, etc together would be, or at least powerful enough to dissuade the others from trying to influence them.

 

[SDET]

As an added aside: What would Spanish and Portuguese be like if you made them gender neutral? EVERYTHING has a gender. It's integral to the language.

 

[SDET]

Here's an attempt to de-genderize Leslie Gore's "You Don't Own Me".

 

[ecofarm]

China, India, Japan, North & South Korea, etc together would be, or at least powerful enough to dissuade the others from trying to influence them.

They don't make the international calls.

 

[nota bene]

I've never even heard of this "Ze"; nor have I heard any discussion anywhere about changing the language to "gender neutral pronouns". The only reference link so far in this thread was to an individual's blog, for pity sake, a guy called "Ianchadwick" who is apparently running for deputy mayor in a town I never heard of in a state that doesn't get mentioned.

WTF is the actual basis of this thread, and the urgency of its message, I wonder!

Gender-neutral pronoun use is a thing. Here's why:

Binary gendered pronouns (he/she) impose a binary view of gender that does not accord with the concept of the gender spectrum (Kilman, 2013), can cause psychological harm (Hidalgo, 2013), exceptionalizes trans identities, and reinscribes difference (Wooley, 2015, p. 376, 381). The gender spectrum has been accepted in neurology (Kranz, 2014), biology (Ainsworth, 2015), social work (Austin, 2016), psychology (American Psychological Association, 2015), psychiatry (Lim, 2015, p. 399), and women’s and gender studies. https://brownschool.wustl.edu/News/Pages/How-and-Why-We-Use-Gender-Neutral-Pronouns-.aspx

From the same source, here is an example of why it's a problem: "Singular" means "one." "A" and "an" also mean "one." It's about counting, and this is especially important in communicating with second-language speakers.

"Themself" is wrong. That's what is being encouraged. It's bad enough that in our speech, we lazily say, "A person...they." It's been a problem for decades, but it shouldn't be institutionalized. And again it's about counting. "They" means "more than one." Singular versus plural, one versus more than one, not "binary gender."

I strongly disagree with this statement: "Accepting the use of singular they in academic and professional writing is the responsible choice for social work and public health programs because it recognizes the gender spectrum...."

 

[DiAnna]

Gender-neutral pronoun use is a thing. Here's why:

Binary gendered pronouns (he/she) impose a binary view of gender that does not accord with the concept of the gender spectrum (Kilman, 2013), can cause psychological harm (Hidalgo, 2013), exceptionalizes trans identities, and reinscribes difference (Wooley, 2015, p. 376, 381). The gender spectrum has been accepted in neurology (Kranz, 2014), biology (Ainsworth, 2015), social work (Austin, 2016), psychology (American Psychological Association, 2015), psychiatry (Lim, 2015, p. 399), and women’s and gender studies. https://brownschool.wustl.edu/News/Pages/How-and-Why-We-Use-Gender-Neutral-Pronouns-.aspx

From the same source, here is an example of why it's a problem: "Singular" means "one." "A" and "an" also mean "one." It's about counting, and this is especially important in communicating with second-language speakers.

"Themself" is wrong. That's what is being encouraged. It's bad enough that in our speech, we lazily say, "A person...they." It's been a problem for decades, but it shouldn't be institutionalized. And again it's about counting. "They" means "more than one." Singular versus plural, one versus more than one, not "binary gender."

I strongly disagree with this statement: "Accepting the use of singular they in academic and professional writing is the responsible choice for social work and public health programs because it recognizes the gender spectrum...."

Such debates are common among academics, psychologists, etc., but what in hell propelled it into the mainstream of normal working Americans? I've never seen or heard a word about it, only see a thread started by defacing song lyrics with the symbol "ze", which as far as I know is not now and never has been a word.

A bit of introduction as to what was going to be discussed, why it was going to be discussed, where it was happening, and "oh, here's a link on which I base this thread" would have been extremely helpful. Also, if the thread is placed in General Political Discussion, I'm obviously trying to figure out what the political aspects of the thread are; I couldn't find any. If it had been in the Academics or Philosophy forums, I wouldn't have been confused, wouldn't have had any questions, because I wouldn't have read it in the first place! :lol:

 

[Captain America]

Vapin' in the trans-gender room,
Yes, indeed!
We were vapin' in the trans-gender room,
Now, teacher don't you fill me up with your rules
'cause everybody knows that,
Vapin' in the trans-gender room ain't allowed in school.

 

[Nap]

They don't make the international calls.

The only reason Kim is in power is due to China. Acting as if they don't have influence is rather ridiculous, and that is simply China if all of Asia were United you don't think they would be on an equal playing field with EU/US?

 

[ecofarm]

The only reason Kim is in power is due to China. Acting as if they don't have influence is rather ridiculous, and that is simply China if all of Asia were United you don't think they would be on an equal playing field with EU/US?

No one claimed anyone has no influence, and no one claimed anyone is powerless. Enough with the absolutes.

You forgot Russia. And, pretty much, South America. Even by racist standards, they're white, right? There's as much Euro blood as native, I'd guess. Are you gonna draw the line at Mexicans, or are they in too?

And before we quantify Japan's power, let's note the military aspect.

 

[Nap]

No one claimed anyone has no influence, and no one claimed anyone is powerless. Enough with the absolutes.

You forgot Russia. And, pretty much, South America. Even by racist standards, they're white, right? There's as much Euro blood as native, I'd guess. Are you gonna draw the line at Mexicans, or are they in too?

And before we quantify Japan's power, let's note the military aspect.

That was going to be my next question, what exactly constitutes "white"? It seems from your perspective it simply means European descent.

 

[ecofarm]

That was going to be my next question, what exactly constitutes "white"? It seems from your perspective it simply means European descent.

I'm as loose as possible with it because I don't consider it a possession of any value. I'd include other than Euro. But if we just say US, EU and Russia, China can't hang and Japan is only economic (probably about one US State).

 

[ludin]

Just use an accordion for backup and it will sound French.

Or a weird al polka.

 

[ludin]

From your link:

Ze, zim, zer, zher, zis, mer, hus, shkle, hum, herm, hann, ey, hu, je, xe, per, thon, yo, ghaH, co, e. Know what these words are? They are artificial constructs: neologisms cobbled together for abstruse political correctness to replace traditional pronouns that expose or define a gender in the subject or object of a sentence: the traditional he, him, she, her and so on.

My English teacher would have flunked me if I had written like that.

What is worse is could you imagine any book or novel or poem written with that crap in there?

 

[ludin]

Male oppression of women, sigh.

See the violence inherent in the system.
Help help I am being oppressed.

That was a clear Monty python momment.

 

[ludin]

Vapin' in the trans-gender room,
Yes, indeed!
We were vapin' in the trans-gender room,
Now, teacher don't you fill me up with your rules
'cause everybody knows that,
Vapin' in the trans-gender room ain't allowed in school.

The ruination of a classic just to keep the SJM's at bay (m is for morons).

 

[Nap]

I'm as loose as possible with it because I don't consider it a possession of any value. I'd include other than Euro. But if we just say US, EU and Russia, China can't hang and Japan is only economic (probably about one US State).

At least there is something we agree on

I find the whole concept of race to be rather ridiculous, especially the white/brown/black pride types. I don't see the point of celebrating a skin tone. Whoohoo my ancestors lived in a particular climate for generations causing my skin tone through natural selection....Why is this even a thing?

This is part of the reason I find much of this dividing up by race so abhorrent and regressive. It only divides us when as a society we should be moving away from such primitive tribalistic beliefs. It seems every aspect of life now must be viewed through some racial lense when really, having a different skin tone is no different than having a different hair or eye color.

Once people realize that differences are largely cultural and have nothing to do with race, we can finally begin to progress as a society because cultures can be adopted where as skin tone can't be changed and forever locks us into these stupid tribalistic fights.

 

[ecofarm]

At least there is something we agree on

I find the whole concept of race to be rather ridiculous, especially the white/brown/black pride types. I don't see the point of celebrating a skin tone. Whoohoo my ancestors lived in a particular climate for generations causing my skin tone through natural selection....Why is this even a thing?

This is part of the reason I find much of this dividing up by race so abhorrent and regressive. It only divides us when as a society we should be moving away from such primitive tribalistic beliefs. It seems every aspect of life now must be viewed through some racial lense when really, having a different skin tone is no different than having a different hair or eye color.

Once people realize that differences are largely cultural and have nothing to do with race, we can finally begin to progress as a society because cultures can be adopted where as skin tone can't be changed and forever locks us into these stupid tribalistic fights.

If my worldly travels have taught me one thing, it's that people are people. We all want the same things. I've spent years of formal grad study understanding social dynamics.

 

[Nap]

If my worldly travels have taught me one thing, it's that people are people. I've spent years of formal grad study understanding social dynamics.

I don't deny tribalism is human nature, it is an evolutionary response that was naturally selected for. However, if humanity is to progress then we need condition ourselves out of it because now it is holding us back. I almost wish they would encourage interracial marriage so that eventually it is a moot point and we would alI one homogeneous race.

 

[ecofarm]

We've had the singular they for five hundred years. If that's not good enough for you, your alternative needs to be better.

What if that's not good enough for you, so you spam a relatively unknown word throughout a heavily gendered song?

 

[ecofarm]

I don't deny tribalism is human nature, it is an evolutionary response that was naturally selected for. However, if humanity is to progress then we need condition ourselves out of it because now it is holding us back. I almost wish they would encourage interracial marriage so that eventually it is a moot point and we would alI one homogeneous race.

Part of improving the mess created by our baser survival fear instincts is recognizing social dynamics. Thinking on a higher level. Realities exist that need explaining, and the pseudo-alternative is racism.

The effects of slavery aren't over. Not for white people either.