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There Simply is no Middle Ground

Do you hold the same thoughts and strong feelings about any foreign government involvement in the US electoral process? I doubt it. You just ride the Russophobia train, all the way to hell I suppose.

And I'm betting you have no objections whatsoever to the overt and covert actions of Israeli interests in interfering in our electoral and governmental processes. Neither does most of Congress, though it does seem slowly that tide is turning.

Hillary blamed Russia for her loss, suggesting it was Russian influence, NEVER DEFINED, NEVER DISCOVERED, that somehow caused US voters to elect Donald.

It's theater sir, pure and simple.

If you know the answer, why ask the question?

I'm opposed to ALL foreign influence in U.S. elections, so that makes YOU wrong.

I also oppose super PACs and influence peddling Washington lobbyists.

You call it "theater" as though the fact that our government, originally framed as "of the people, by the people, and for the people" is clearly now available to the highest bidder, foreign or domestic, is no big deal.

I don't know which is worse: Those who are in denial or those, like you, who embrace this sad reality.
 
After watching the incredible levels of denial from the Trumpkins tonight, I conclude that there is no compromising with these people.

Facts:

1. That Trump colluded with the Russians is all over the Mueller Report.


2. That Trump obstructed justice is even more evident in it.


So, until we see the wrong side begin to agree to a few basic facts (Hint: guys and gals on the Trumpian Right, you might want to actually read the damned report). I see no reason why those of us who are using actual reality as our measuring stick should ever pay any attention to what they have to say again.

Sometimes "there is no other hand".

 
If you know the answer, why ask the question?

I'm opposed to ALL foreign influence in U.S. elections, so that makes YOU wrong.

I also oppose super PACs and influence peddling Washington lobbyists.

You call it "theater" as though the fact that our government, originally framed as "of the people, by the people, and for the people" is clearly now available to the highest bidder, foreign or domestic, is no big deal.

I don't know which is worse: Those who are in denial or those, like you, who embrace this sad reality.

One must accept reality, but that does not mean one 'embraces' it or is happy about it. I'm sure you can see the difference.

Yes, our government has been one of special interests for a very long time. Indeed, Ike warned about it way back in 1961.

A skilled lawyer knows to never ask a question unless he already knows the answer, and so I often imitate that procedure.

I'm glad to be wrong in predicting your answer, and I accept that you object to any foreign influence in our electoral processes, however much an illusion those processes might be if one is trying to achieve government of, by and for the people.

Slogans do not often match reality, I'm sure you agree.

That those riding the Russophobia train are unable to define or demonstrate exactly what sort of effect Russian efforts had on the outcome of the election suggests there was none, pretty much the same conclusion Mueller reached.

That we have interfered far more in Russian elections and Ukrainian elections brings hypocrisy into the calculus for "reality".

Yes, sadly it's theater. The outcome has already been determined--special interests will continue to control the federal government, including foreign special interests such as Israel, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and probably many more.
 
Actually, I think those who aren't avid anti-Trumpers are becoming annoyed at this whole thing. The way I see it, most less to non-partisans think the Mueller report was suppose to be the end of all of this. They are now beginning to question why it hasn't. Perhaps a very partisan political vendetta is surfacing. Time will tell how the 44% of the electorate, independents view all of this come 2020. Could it be it is becoming very tiresome to them, finally.

Anyone who has read the report understands that Mueller basically has told Congress to do their damn job. The case for obstruction of justice is clearly laid out in a roadmap. People who expected this report to be the end of it never should have had such an expectation because it was a counterintelligence investigation, not a trial.
They question why it hasn't been an end? The answer is: Because it is a roadmap of what proper and impartial people should do if justice and the rule of law means anything to them.
It has very little to do with partisan political agendas.

And if democracy is that tiresome then here, accept the yoke of tyranny, I am sure you "tired people" will find it very comfortable.
 
Anyone who has read the report understands that Mueller basically has told Congress to do their damn job. The case for obstruction of justice is clearly laid out in a roadmap. People who expected this report to be the end of it never should have had such an expectation because it was a counterintelligence investigation, not a trial.
They question why it hasn't been an end? The answer is: Because it is a roadmap of what proper and impartial people should do if justice and the rule of law means anything to them.
It has very little to do with partisan political agendas.

And if democracy is that tiresome then here, accept the yoke of tyranny, I am sure you "tired people" will find it very comfortable.

I think to quite a lot of folks this is becoming to look more like a partisan political vendetta than a search for the truth. I could be wrong, but when it is just one party that won't let go, there is a very real chance that it backfires. Perhaps the democrats are right, but so far they have failed to convince most Americans to include independents.

Obstruction 79% of democrats say yes, 76% of Republicans no. Independents are split, 36% yes, 35% no, 29% undecided, not sure. Question 13.

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/75p17530i6/econTabReport.pdf

Those independents who say yes I would wager are Democratic leaning independents, those independents who say no, are Republican leaning independents. The true or pure independents with no leans are not sure or just want those in Washington to get on with the running of the country. Heck, 65% of democrats still think Trump colluded with Russia even though Mueller said he didn't. Question 11.

Regardless, I have began to wonder if this continued Democratic attacks, valid or not, might be starting to influence the 2020 election. People getting tired of it. Independents. Question 17, the generic presidential vote in the latest YouGov poll.

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/g7xsqei38g/econTabReport.pdf

Independents only, vote for Trump 27%, vote for the democratic candidate 29%, it depends, 22%, would not vote 22%. This is the closest Trump has been to the democratic generic candidate for quite awhile. It depends means that those independent voters are waiting to see whom the democrats nominate. But what does the 22% who say they aren't going to vote mean? I suppose we can read into that anything we want to. But perhaps those are just getting tired of this whole mess and want to wash their hands of it. Maybe, maybe not.

Could these very early numbers be a sign the democrats are over playing their hand? I don't know. Could it be a sign that come November of 2020 regardless of whom the Democrats nominate that they might once again lose the independent vote? Independents have grown from 36% of the electorate in November of 2016 to 44% today. Whether right, wrong or indifferent, are the Democrats in the House, the party as a whole winning the hearts and minds of independents or are they losing them? 2020 will have the answer. Will independents view all of this as a partisan political vendetta for losing an election or a search for the truth to save the Republic? We don't know yet.
 
Of course this is merely an internet forum, not a court of law.

Feel free to offer an opinion if you wish. And if you do, perhaps you might offer some form of proof that the Russians helped Trump's campaign, but I doubt you can or will. In 2 years Mueller could find nothing about that, but yes, Mueller is as compromised as any career man inside the beltway.

Let's put it this way: If tRump really didn't accept any help from Russia, then he was a complete and utter moron to fire Comey and impede the investigation against him. That's not how innocent men behave.
 
Hmm....what's with the all caps?

Don't you know? If it's in all caps it can't be disputed. It's like English, speak it slowly and loudly enough, anyone can understand, right?
 
After watching the incredible levels of denial from the Trumpkins tonight, I conclude that there is no compromising with these people.

Facts:

1. That Trump colluded with the Russians is all over the Mueller Report.


2. That Trump obstructed justice is even more evident in it.


So, until we see the wrong side begin to agree to a few basic facts (Hint: guys and gals on the Trumpian Right, you might want to actually read the damned report). I see no reason why those of us who are using actual reality as our measuring stick should ever pay any attention to what they have to say again.

LOL. There is no compromising with you.
 
LOL. There is no compromising with you.

I would not want you to. There is not one inch of ground I can find which I would yield to anyone who thinks like what you post.
 
Let's put it this way: If tRump really didn't accept any help from Russia, then he was a complete and utter moron to fire Comey and impede the investigation against him. That's not how innocent men behave.

You've never seen me call the scoundrel Trump an innocent man.

That said, it has been obvious from the beginning to this man who voted for neither Trump nor Clinton that the whole idea that Russia stole the election is beyond absurd. All the government men were misbehaving and deceiving, just as they do pretty much every day of their lives.
 
Barr dunked right in Democrat's faces and there isn't a dam thing they can do about it except their usual.Whine.


HAAHHAHHHAHAHAHA
 
After watching the incredible levels of denial from the Trumpkins tonight, I conclude that there is no compromising with these people.

Facts:

1. That Trump colluded with the Russians is all over the Mueller Report.


2. That Trump obstructed justice is even more evident in it.


So, until we see the wrong side begin to agree to a few basic facts (Hint: guys and gals on the Trumpian Right, you might want to actually read the damned report). I see no reason why those of us who are using actual reality as our measuring stick should ever pay any attention to what they have to say again.

You sound like the perfect person to decide where the middle ground is.
 
That those riding the Russophobia train are unable to define or demonstrate exactly what sort of effect Russian efforts had on the outcome of the election suggests there was none, pretty much the same conclusion Mueller reached.
Although I'm not commenting on your other points, this one stuck in my craw, as it is simply inaccurate. The "Russia Effect" is demonstrable, e.g., How Much Did Russian Interference Affect The 2016 Election? (Fivethirtyeight) (But the Jim Comey effect was discretely large enough on its own).
The Russian efforts were on the small side as compared with the massive magnitudes of the campaigns, but not so small that you’d consider them a rounding error.

Moreover, the Mueller report did not address the question, so the latter "conclusion" is simply unsupportable.
 
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After watching the incredible levels of denial from the Trumpkins tonight, I conclude that there is no compromising with these people.

Facts:

1. That Trump colluded with the Russians is all over the Mueller Report.


2. That Trump obstructed justice is even more evident in it.


So, until we see the wrong side begin to agree to a few basic facts (Hint: guys and gals on the Trumpian Right, you might want to actually read the damned report). I see no reason why those of us who are using actual reality as our measuring stick should ever pay any attention to what they have to say again.

Forever to be called the Mueller Dossier.

Ever see the movie “body of lies”? David ignatius book 2007...CIA tactics used to entrap similar.

CIA FBI ran a complete circle jerk now getting exposed.

If Mueller had the goods he would have charged Trump.
 
Forever to be called the Mueller Dossier.

Ever see the movie “body of lies”? David ignatius book 2007...CIA tactics used to entrap similar.

CIA FBI ran a complete circle jerk now getting exposed.

If Mueller had the goods he would have charged Trump.

Again, it is obvious you don't understand or have not read the report. Why is it that so many people here stubbornly refuse to read it? I really don't understand, other than blatant partisanship, why so many lies are told about Mueller and the report.
 
Again, it is obvious you don't understand or have not read the report. Why is it that so many people here stubbornly refuse to read it? I really don't understand, other than blatant partisanship, why so many lies are told about Mueller and the report.

Why didn't Mueller charge Trump?
 
Why didn't Mueller charge Trump?

My apologies, friend, I didn't see that you have just joined the forum. I thought you were a different poster (based upon the avatar).

INTRODUCTION TO VOLUME II
....
First, a traditional prosecution or declination decision entails a binary determination to
initiate or declin e a prosecution, but we determined not to make a traditional prosecutorial
judgment. The Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) has issued an opinion finding that "t he indictment
or criminal prosecution of a sitting President would impermissibly undermine the capacity of the
executive branch to perform its constitutionally assigned functions" in violation of "the
constitutional separation of powers." 1 Given the role of the Special Counsel as an attorney in the
Department of Justice and the framework of the Special Counsel regulations , see 28 U.S.C. § 515;
28 C.F.R. § 600.7(a), this Office accepted OLC's legal conclusion for the purpose of exerc ising
prosecutorial jurisdiction. And apart from OLC's constitutional view, we recognized that a federal
criminal accusation against a sitting President would place burdens on the President's capacity to
govern and potentially preempt constitutional processes for addressing presidential misconduct. 2
....
Third, we considered whether to evaluate the conduct we investigated under the Justice
Manual standards governing prosecution and declination decisions, but we determined not to apply
an approach that could potentially result in a judgment that the President committed crimes. The
threshold step under the Justice Manual standards is to assess whether a person's conduct
"constitutes a federal offense." U.S. Dep't of Justice, Justice Manual§ 9-27.220 (2018) (Justice
Manual). Fairness concerns counseled against potentially reaching that judgment when no charges
can be brought. The ordinary means for an individual to respond to an accusation is through a
speedy and public trial, with all the procedural protections that surround a criminal case. An
individual who believes he was wrongly accused can use that process to seek to clear his name. In
contrast , a prosecutor's judgment that crimes were committed, but that no charges will be brought ,
affords no such adversarial opportunity for public name-clearing before an impartial adjudicator .
5

Fourth, if we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President
clearly did not commit obstruction of justice , we would so state. Based on the facts and the
applicable legal standards , however , we are unable to reach that judgment. The evidence we
obtained about the President 's actions and intent presents difficult issues that prevent us from
conclusively determining that no criminal conduct occurred. Accordingly, while this report does
not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.
He didn't charge him because DoJ policy precluded it.
 
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My apologies, friend, I didn't see that you have just joined the forum. I thought you were a different poster (based upon the avatar).


He didn't charge him because DoJ policy precluded it.

No worries friend )

Did you listen to the complete Bill Barr testimony to the Senate?

Barr mentions OLC recommendations and Mueller response I'll try and find the clip

found it....Grassley asks about it @ 1:05:00
YouTube
 
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1. tRump may not have actively sought out help from the Russians, but he sure as hell didn't say "no" to that help when it arrived.

2. It is becoming clearer by the day that tRump has committed worse-than-Nixon levels of obstruction of justice. Obstruction of justice was enough to impeach Nixon, and he knew it. Same with tRump.

It's only obstruction if there was an underlying crime. "Collusion" isn't a crime.
 
No worries friend )

Did you listen to the complete Bill Barr testimony to the Senate?

Barr mentions OLC recommendations and Mueller response I'll try and find the clip

I didn't see all of it, I admit. I found Barr's testimony both incredible and stomach-churning. (I had to stop watching.) It appalls me that this man is Attorney General. If his testimony was consistent with his previous pronouncements, he is skating on thin ice regarding perjury. In my opinion, he lied about Mueller's findings, but even if it was just deemed "spin" - it was unbecoming of the chief law enforcement official of the United States. In my book, "lies by omission" are just as damning as lies of commission. I use as an example, the Trump statement about the "Trump Tower" meeting. Yes, orphans were discussed, but that wasn't the purpose or content of the meeting. Similarly, Mueller's report found numerous examples of obstruction, but knew he couldn't charge them. He didn't "leave it to Barr" to make the call. That distorts the content beyond meaning.
 
It's only obstruction if there was an underlying crime.

That, my friend, is exactly, completely, and inalterably, WRONG. It defies both the text of the law, and all relevant legal precedents. I think you know that already, too.
 
That, my friend, is exactly, completely, and inalterably, WRONG. It defies both the text of the law, and all relevant legal precedents. I think you know that already, too.

There was no criminal investigation when President Trump fired Comey.

It was a "counter-intelligence" investigation. Remember?
 
I didn't see all of it, I admit. I found Barr's testimony both incredible and stomach-churning. (I had to stop watching.) It appalls me that this man is Attorney General. If his testimony was consistent with his previous pronouncements, he is skating on thin ice regarding perjury. In my opinion, he lied about Mueller's findings, but even if it was just deemed "spin" - it was unbecoming of the chief law enforcement official of the United States. In my book, "lies by omission" are just as damning as lies of commission. I use as an example, the Trump statement about the "Trump Tower" meeting. Yes, orphans were discussed, but that wasn't the purpose or content of the meeting. Similarly, Mueller's report found numerous examples of obstruction, but knew he couldn't charge them. He didn't "leave it to Barr" to make the call. That distorts the content beyond meaning.

This whole narrative getting blown up as huge FBI/CIA "Body of Lies". Mueller getting exposed for omission in report of Joseph Mifsud so called Russian spy.

We need to step back from the weeds...the big picture is watergate x100
 
No worries friend )

Did you listen to the complete Bill Barr testimony to the Senate?

Barr mentions OLC recommendations and Mueller response I'll try and find the clip

found it....Grassley asks about it @ 1:05:00
YouTube

I didn't see all of it, I admit. I found Barr's testimony both incredible and stomach-churning. (I had to stop watching.) It appalls me that this man is Attorney General. If his testimony was consistent with his previous pronouncements, he is skating on thin ice regarding perjury. In my opinion, he lied about Mueller's findings, but even if it was just deemed "spin" - it was unbecoming of the chief law enforcement official of the United States. In my book, "lies by omission" are just as damning as lies of commission. I use as an example, the Trump statement about the "Trump Tower" meeting. Yes, orphans were discussed, but that wasn't the purpose or content of the meeting. Similarly, Mueller's report found numerous examples of obstruction, but knew he couldn't charge them. He didn't "leave it to Barr" to make the call. That distorts the content beyond meaning.

found the clip above
 
There was no criminal investigation when President Trump fired Comey.

It was a "counter-intelligence" investigation. Remember?

And, you know, that is completely irrelevant to your contention. Indeed, it is, I believe, intended to be a distraction and diversion from the topic. Kind of proving the OP point, no?
 
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