• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

The war on terror is a war against Islam

Inuyasha

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Messages
1,510
Reaction score
58
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
earthworm said:
It is the Muslims who have placed themselves in the "all Muslims are terrorists" camp. They are the only ones who can clean their own house, nor Bush, not the US military, surely not the useless UN...Of course, our military is trying with a mighty effort, and with support, may well prevail...

Are they doing this ?
Have any improvements been made in their education ?
Has even one man denounced the Koran ???

A similar situation existed in our nation during prohibition with the Italians.
Many thought all Italians were criminals.
And what did the Italians do about this ??

Yes that is true. Everyone, in the end, has to clean their own house. I don't think an outside force, military, political or religious can change people. It has to come from within.

I have heard that some schools are trying to change the hate rhetoric that the mullahs and the imams have spewed forth but I don't know to what degree or even if that is so.

Why do you think they should denounce the Koran? After all the Bible is full of war and violence and we are certainly not going to denounce the whole book. That would be throwing the baby out with the bath water. many passages in the Koran are useful and make much sense so i don't see how or even why Muslims should denounce their scriptures.

I know very well what people of Italian descent have had to put up with. And that is still going on in many quarters. Italian-Mafia etc. These accusations were put out against Giuliano and Ferraro as recently as a few years ago. Old stereotypes die hard. It is sad but true. Different groups made up of Americans of Italian descent have discrimination cases in the courts even now.
 

MSgt

Stabler Genius
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
26,272
Reaction score
11,629
Location
Highlands Ranch, CO
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
earthworm said:
It is the Muslims who have placed themselves in the "all Muslims are terrorists" camp. They are the only ones who can clean their own house, nor Bush, not the US military, surely not the useless UN...Of course, our military is trying with a mighty effort, and with support, may well prevail...

Are they doing this ?
Have any improvements been made in their education ?
Has even one man denounced the Koran ???

A similar situation existed in our nation during prohibition with the Italians.
Many thought all Italians were criminals.
And what did the Italians do about this ??


A recent survey by UNICEF found that overall enrollment, in Iraq, has surged from 3.6 million youngsters in primary school in 2000 to some 4.3 million at present. This is just Iraq, but the Middle Eastern civilization and our security lies with the Muslim youth.

Iran, Syria, and Jordan are showing great promise for a progressive change in the future. This will take generations, but in the end, the only thing that can fix the Muslim world is Muslims.
 

vaid

New member
Joined
Dec 29, 2005
Messages
13
Reaction score
0
Location
Kharagpur,India
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
tr1414 said:
Abu Halabiya was quoting the Qur'an 5:51 & 9:5. Check it out. Ask yourselfs why this was not all over their media. Muhammad did not teach "peace & tolerance" he led armies & ordered the assassination of his enemies.
The Qur'an commands Muslims to make war on Jews & Christians.
If you read history you'll see that The Crusades were not acts of unprovoked aggression by Europe against the Islamic world, but a delayed response to centuries of Muslim aggression.
If the American left wing has anything to say about it, America is in big trouble. It's time for us cut the politically correct bullshit & do what most Muslims understand. WAGE WAR .... if only the liberals let us.

In my endeavour to garner the correct information about the verses quoted...i asked a Muslim scholar, Here is what he wrote back in my e-mail....

Sir,


The question posted by you,"Does Islam really order Muslims to not take Jews, Christians and other non-Muslims as friends?" in view of verse 5:51 can be easily answered.

Arabic original version of the verse is,
[005:051] Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo la tattakhithoo alyahooda waalnnasara awliyaa baAAduhum awliyao baAAdin waman yatawallahum minkum fa-innahu minhum inna Allaha la yahdee alqawma alththalimeena

Its translation as per given by you are

[005:051] O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.
-Translation from the book by Yousuf Ali.

Similar such verses in Holy Quran which can misguide when quoted out of contextare

"O ye who believe! Take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport - whether among those who received the Scripture (i.e., the Bible) before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have Faith (indeed). (The Noble Quran, 5:57)"

"Yea, to those who take for friends unbelievers rather than believers: is it honour they seek among them? Nay,- all honour is with God. (The Noble Quran, 4:139)"

"O ye who believe! Turn not (for friendship) To people on whom Is the Wrath of Allah. Of the Hereafter they are Already in despair, just as The Unbelievers are In despair about those (Buried) in graves. (The Noble Quran, 60:13)"


In the above Noble Verses, the Arabic word for "friends" is "Awliyaa", which has four literal meanings: (1) Allies; (2) Friends; and (3) Guardians. In Noble Verse 60:13, the Arabic word used was "tatawallu", which is derived from the root word "Awliyaa".

"Waliy" which is the singular of "Awliyaa" means "Guardian" as your parents were your guardians when you were a kid. So as you can see, the Arabic word "Awliyaa" has different literal meanings.

Important Note: In Noble Verse 60:13 above, Allah Almighty said "la tatawallu qawman", which literally means "take not as allies a tribe (or a community)", which further proves my point that "Awliyaa" in the Noble Verses above is meant for "alliance" and not personal "friendship".

*** There is nothing wrong with developing a personal friendship with a non-Muslim to help him/her understand and appreciate Islam and to ultimately embrace it if they chose to. As clearly shown in the introduction above, Allah Almighty commanded all Muslims to treat with kindness and justice all of the good non-Muslims.

The English translation of the Noble Verses above is not accurate, because the use of the word "friends" is really out of context. The word "Allies" is the correct one, because in all of the Noble Verses above Allah Almighty was talking to the Muslims as a group taking A GROUP OF PEOPLE OR COMMUNITY as "Awliyaa", which fits perfectly with "alliance" than with just personal "friendship" on an individual level.

Another example of inaccurate English translation is the following Noble Verse:

"As to those who turn (For friendship) to Allah, His Messenger, and the (Fellowship of) Believers - it is the Fellowship of Allah that must certainly triumph. (The Noble Quran, 5:56)"

The Arabic word for "Fellowship" of Allah is "hizb", which literally mean "Alliance", as in "Hizbullah" in Lebanon, which means "The Alliance of Allah". Hizbullah are the guerrillas and the warriors that fought the Israelis long battles in southern Lebanon and finally were able to drive them out. Also, the "Northern Alliance" in Afghanistan against the Taliban are called "Hizb Al-shamal".

Hizb is mistranslated as "Fellowship" instead of "Alliance". Noble Verse 5:56 clearly states that Muslims must form their alliances only with Allah Almighty, Prophet Muhammad and the Believers. Any alliance other than Allah Almighty is a losing one. That is exactly what the Alliance with the Jews, Christians and Pagans against fellow Muslims will result in: Eventual loss at this life, and Severe Punishment at the Day of Judgement.

So the Noble Verses above don't suggest that Muslims can not have personal friends with non-Muslims. It suggests that Muslim countries are prohibited from forming alliance with the non-Muslims against other Muslims.

Noble 5:57, however, clearly states that Muslims should avoid having personal friendship with anyone (Muslim or non-Muslim) who disrespects Islam and take it for a "mockery". So the translation of "friends" for "Awliyaa" seem to be a correct and accurate one.

The use of the word "friends" for Noble Verses 5:51 and 4:139 as a translation is ambiguous. It is not clear from the Noble Verses that Allah Almighty meant for "Awliyaa" to be only personal "friends". Certainly Noble Verse 5:56 above clearly shows that Allah Almighty is concerned about the Alliance that Muslims commit themselves to, and not personal friendships.

Verse 9:5 can be answered more easily if you look at succeeding verse,

The original Arabic version is,

[009:005] Fa-itha insalakha al-ashhuru alhurumu faoqtuloo almushrikeena haythu wajadtumoohum wakhuthoohum waohsuroohum waoqAAudoo lahum kulla marsadin fa-in taboo waaqamoo alssalata waatawoo alzzakata fakhalloo sabeelahum inna Allaha ghafoorun raheemun

[009:006] Wa-in ahadun mina almushrikeena istajaraka faajirhu hatta yasmaAAa kalama Allahi thumma ablighhu ma/manahu thalika bi-annahum qawmun la yaAAlamoona

Quoting Yusuf Ali's translation as per your request(I believe you have his translation book,but you will also require a "book on Tafsir (elaborations/details)"to understand the ambigous Arabic words which has no/faulty English equivalent or tends to give more than one meaning)

[009:005] But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

[009:006] If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of God; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.

Allah Almighty certainly DOES NOT ask every non-muslim to be slain which would appear so if you quote Verse 9:5 only without the succeeding verse.



Yours Truly,
Tabrez Zakaria
 
Last edited:

rami

New member
Joined
Nov 9, 2005
Messages
3
Reaction score
0
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
as for the first verse which is 5:51 god told us, muslims, not take jews and christians as allies. here jews and christians are the people that oppose the muslims and not the jews and christians as indviduals in the society. in the middle east there are many christians and jews that live in peace with muslims.
infact our prophet told us that if u offend a christian u r not from my people. so in the islamic society we treat christians in a good way because they are our brohters in humanity. isreali's who are mostly jews kill palestians every day who are mostly muslims. how could u excpect a muslim to allie with the isreali jew agaainst his fellow muslim. the same issue is in iraq when the american soldier who is christian kills my fellow muslim how could u excpect me or anther muslim to allie with the american soldier. i would like to quote this revelation to " for they are allies of one anther" this verse shows that the quran is a miracle from heaven reaveled to Prophet Muhamed (PBUH). throughout history jews and christians were always allies ( which is something that confuses me, for jews killed jesus) of jews. for example the romans who occupied the middle east in the 6th century where the allies of jews and the britain who occupied mostly the world were the allies of jews because they were the main reason for the settelement of jews in palestian and forming the isreal, and now america allies with the jews in trying to keep them in palestine.

so praise be to allah who knew everything before it ever happened.
 
T

The Real McCoy

Inuyasha said:
Yes that is true. Everyone, in the end, has to clean their own house. I don't think an outside force, military, political or religious can change people. It has to come from within.

Military force worked with the Nazis, along with plenty other groups/governments throughout human history.
 

Aleem

Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2005
Messages
112
Reaction score
7
Location
Egypt
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
OdgenTugbyGlub said:
Actually if you read the Quran it contradicts itself alot

Can you prove it ?
 

Tashah

DP Veteran
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
18,379
Reaction score
9,230
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Centrist
Aleem said:
OdgenTugbyGlub said:
Actually if you read the Quran it contradicts itself alot.

Can you prove it?
I speak the mISR (Egyptian) dialect of Arabic and have read the Qu'ran numerous times. It is indeed a bifurcated document. Comparing identical subject materal in the Medinah and Mekkah narratives serves to reveal marked contradictions and oppositional thematics. The Qu'ran often strikes me as an excercise in the ancient concept of duelism in the sense that everything... possesses both a literal truth and a converse truth. It is apparently up to the Qu'ranic reader to determine which of these duelistic truths is ascendent, as both truths cannot occupy ascendency simultaneously.



 

robin

Banned
Joined
Jun 9, 2005
Messages
1,045
Reaction score
0
Location
UK
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
The Qu'ran has told us nothing about the way the world really is, where it came from, how old it is & why we are the way we are & how we came about. It's also been the cause of countless wars. Science on the other hand has answered those questions & provided us with medicine & to my knowledge, science has never caused any wars. This leads me to ask....
1) What good has ever come out of the Qu'ran ?
2) Is it not just a book written on a whim by Muhammad groupies dealing with utterly inconsequential historical trivia ?
3) Why are more man hours probably spent reading such a book when science & natural philosophy is so much more enlightening & useful ?
 
Last edited:

MSgt

Stabler Genius
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
26,272
Reaction score
11,629
Location
Highlands Ranch, CO
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
robin said:
The Qu'ran has told us nothing about the way the world really is, where it came from, how old it is & why we are the way we are & how we came about. It's also been the cause of countless wars. Science on the other hand has answered those questions & provided us with medicine & to my knowledge, science has never caused any wars. This leads me to ask....
1) What good has ever come out of the Qu'ran ?
2) Is it not just a book written on a whim by Muhammad groupies dealing with utterly inconsequential historical trivia ?
3) Why are more man hours probably spent reading such a book when science & natural philosophy is so much more enlightening & useful ?

In the decaying Arab world, bitter old men interpret and deform the Qu'ran's more humane precepts while embracing its cruelest injunctions. Religion explains the unexplainable. As the unexplainable has been explained through the centuries, religions have changed to suit the needs of the progress of societies. Certainty is comforting, but a religion’s capacity for adaptive behavior unleashes the energies necessary to renew both the faith and the society in which it flourishes. Christianity, Hinduism, Muslimism and others have embraced the need to change their religion as technology has given more worldy answers to such questions.

However, there is a substantial amount of extremists and millions of followers in the Middle East that do not want their religion to progress. Fundamentalists insist upon an historical stasis, but evolution in the architecture of faith has always been essential to, and reflective of, human progress. Instead of rolling up their sleeves, they are blaming everyone else for their self inflicted problems and passed down traditions.

The bloody-handed terrorists and their mentors are determined to pay any price to frustrate those Muslims who believe that God is capable of smiling, or that it is possible to change the earth without challenging Heaven.
 

Ahem

New member
Joined
Jan 10, 2006
Messages
8
Reaction score
0
Location
Kuji Sound (6)
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Iriemon said:
Racist hate propoganda by a war mongerer.

Despite what your bogus critical studies dictionary might have told you, Islam is NOT a race.
 

Billo_Really

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
18,930
Reaction score
1,040
Location
HBCA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Originally posted by Ahem:
Despite what your bogus critical studies dictionary might have told you, Islam is NOT a race.
That's a good point.

Welcome to Debate Politics.
 

cherokee

Devil Dog
Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 26, 2005
Messages
7,486
Reaction score
789
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Remember bin laden grouping us together by saying “since you pay taxes you are no longer civilians”?.

Well since they worship the same book all of them are terrorists.
How would they like that?....
 
Top Bottom