The war on terror is a war against Islam

[OdgenTugbyGlub]

you don't have the right to talk like this on the Holy Quran !
and you are being asked to proof this claim !!
if your bible has contradictions not neccessarily everything like it !

Heh, take a few pills and right this so I can understand it. I have read a large part of the Quran as well as the bible, and in both texts there are contradicitions in teachings just in the parts I have read.

While most Muslims may not be terrorist, most support terrorist. Don't forget the dancing in the streets after 9/11 & anytime Americans die, Muslims get very happy & hand out sweets, but you won't see that in the liberal media.

It's not that those rejoicing in our pain were muslims, its that they were from rabidly anti-american countries. Religion is used as a tool of control in the M.E., and of course making the people angry at someone else instead of the Government is a universal tactic. We are used as a scape goat for every problem the world has, justified or not. Islam isn't the problem, institutionalized radicalism is.

 

[MSgt]

Islam isn't the problem, institutionalized radicalism is.

Actually, Islam is very much the problem, because the Islam that is widely practiced in the Middle East is a blasphemy to the Islam practiced throughout the world by the majority of Muslims. The "institutionalized radicalism" is based around this Arab's version of Islam.

Islam is one of the youngest of the world's great religions and they are struggling for an identity. It is still very much a work-in-progress on its vast frontiers and its forms are at least as various as the countless confessions and sects of Christendom. Islam is a religion of changing shape and potential. In the Arab heartland, Islam is a brittle as concrete, but Islam’s local identities are far from decided in its struggling borderlands, and, in times of tumult, any religion can turn toward the darkness as easily as toward the light. Religious intolerance always returns in times of doubt and disorder. We've seen this throughout history and we can see this currently in Northern Africa, Europe, the Middle East, and in Asia (India and Indonesia). We live in an age of change so profound that entire cultures cannot cope with the stress. They have been left behind by history and their response has been to blame everyone but themselves—and to sponsor terror (sometimes casually, but often officially). Much of the Arab world has withdrawn into a fortress of intolerance and self-righteousness as psychologically comfortable as it is practically destructive.

Islam is going through a dark age just as Christianity had done during the 16th century in Europe. Islam certainly is not hateful in its essence—but a disproportionate number of its current adherents need to hate to avoid the agony of self-knowledge. They blame everyone but themselves for the ruin of their societies and the complete absence of personal success. Ironically, it is their perverted religion that they cling so tightley to that has brought them to their predicament. They continue to withdraw into the religion of their fathers and they seek answers. They are convinced that "Allah" will provide salvation and their extremists are willing to do anything for it. This civilization's desperation is very much a driving force behind Islamic terrorism.

The outcome of this clash between Islamic religious prescriptions will be a peaceful Islam as Muhammed preached or the vision of a hang man's noose. Currently the legions of adherents to radical Islam and their "martyrs" glorify the very practices Muhammed condemned.

Islam, is certainly the problem.

 

[OdgenTugbyGlub]

Gysgt
I certainly agree with your post, however my point is that it is not Islam at its base that is the problem, but the rampant radicalization of islam by arab political leaders. Due to the millions of peaceful muslims in the world I just don't find it fitting to lable all of Islam as the problem. I probably should have said "Islam isn't the problem, instituionalized Islamic radicalism is. I just know to many muslims to call them all "a problem".

 

[Iriemon]

Actually, Islam is very much the problem, because the Islam that is widely practiced in the Middle East is a blasphemy to the Islam practiced throughout the world by the majority of Muslims. The "institutionalized radicalism" is based around this Arab's version of Islam.

Islam is one of the youngest of the world's great religions and they are struggling for an identity. It is still very much a work-in-progress on its vast frontiers and its forms are at least as various as the countless confessions and sects of Christendom. Islam is a religion of changing shape and potential. In the Arab heartland, Islam is a brittle as concrete, but Islam’s local identities are far from decided in its struggling borderlands, and, in times of tumult, any religion can turn toward the darkness as easily as toward the light. Religious intolerance always returns in times of doubt and disorder. We've seen this throughout history and we can see this currently in Northern Africa, Europe, the Middle East, and in Asia (India and Indonesia). We live in an age of change so profound that entire cultures cannot cope with the stress. They have been left behind by history and their response has been to blame everyone but themselves—and to sponsor terror (sometimes casually, but often officially). Much of the Arab world has withdrawn into a fortress of intolerance and self-righteousness as psychologically comfortable as it is practically destructive.

Islam is going through a dark age just as Christianity had done during the 16th century in Europe. Islam certainly is not hateful in its essence—but a disproportionate number of its current adherents need to hate to avoid the agony of self-knowledge. They blame everyone but themselves for the ruin of their societies and the complete absence of personal success. Ironically, it is their perverted religion that they cling so tightley to that has brought them to their predicament. They continue to withdraw into the religion of their fathers and they seek answers. They are convinced that "Allah" will provide salvation and their extremists are willing to do anything for it. This civilization's desperation is very much a driving force behind Islamic terrorism.

The outcome of this clash between Islamic religious prescriptions will be a peaceful Islam as Muhammed preached or the vision of a hang man's noose. Currently the legions of adherents to radical Islam and their "martyrs" glorify the very practices Muhammed condemned.

Islam, is certainly the problem.

A thoughtful discussion.

How does our indefinite occupation of Iraq hinder the "dark" fundamentalist forces of Islam and help forward the "enlightened" forces of Islam? I would think it accomplishes the opposite of our goal. Those who favor fundamentalism can justifiably argue that America (a nation of crusaders and zionists) invaded a Muslem country based upon false pretenses. They can argue justifiably that American forces are killing (and torturing) thousands of Muslems. They can justifiably argue that we invaded with the premise of a short term occupation, with clear and limited goals, yet 2 1/2 years later we have more troops there, and we won't even say when we will leave, except to give vague conditions that are always changing.

Are not our misadventures in Iraq giving the "dark side" effective justification for its position? How is that helping us win the war on terror? Every day we stay there is another day the dark side can legitimatly argue that how the crusaders and zionists want to take over their land, resources, and change their culture and religion.

Think for a moment how Americans felt when we were hit on 9/11. Americans were mad, united, and ready to fight. Our invasion of Iraq has caused 10x that many Iraqi deaths, and cause the deaths of scores of Muslems every single day. Aren't we giving the the Muslems the same kind of cultural unity and motivation and outrage against us with our continued occupation of Iraq? How is this helping our efforts to minimize the fundamentalism that fuels terrorists?

 

[MSgt]

Gysgt
I certainly agree with your post, however my point is that it is not Islam at its base that is the problem, but the rampant radicalization of islam by arab political leaders. Due to the millions of peaceful muslims in the world I just don't find it fitting to lable all of Islam as the problem. I probably should have said "Islam isn't the problem, instituionalized Islamic radicalism is. I just know to many muslims to call them all "a problem".

Oh....you got it.

 

[MSgt]

A thoughtful discussion.

How does our indefinite occupation of Iraq hinder the "dark" fundamentalist forces of Islam and help forward the "enlightened" forces of Islam? I would think it accomplishes the opposite of our goal. Those who favor fundamentalism can justifiably argue that America (a nation of crusaders and zionists) invaded a Muslem country based upon false pretenses. They can argue justifiably that American forces are killing (and torturing) thousands of Muslems. They can justifiably argue that we invaded with the premise of a short term occupation, with clear and limited goals, yet 2 1/2 years later we have more troops there, and we won't even say when we will leave, except to give vague conditions that are always changing.

Are not our misadventures in Iraq giving the "dark side" effective justification for its position? How is that helping us win the war on terror? Every day we stay there is another day the dark side can legitimatly argue that how the crusaders and zionists want to take over their land, resources, and change their culture and religion.

Think for a moment how Americans felt when we were hit on 9/11. Americans were mad, united, and ready to fight. Our invasion of Iraq has caused 10x that many Iraqi deaths, and cause the deaths of scores of Muslems every single day. Aren't we giving the the Muslems the same kind of cultural unity and motivation and outrage against us with our continued occupation of Iraq? How is this helping our efforts to minimize the fundamentalism that fuels terrorists?

The "war on terror" will take generations. There will not be a decisive victory over a peace table, but rather a continual decline of Islamic extremism over the years. Desperation fuels them. Opportunity and the free flow of information spread amongst their generations will see us to an end. For now, they can see things as they like and as they have been trained to see things their entire lives, but one thing is certain. When we leave, they will have to question the intent of the "invaders" in Iraq. They will be left to their own devices and the peaceful Muslims will have to defend themselves against the bloody-handed terrorists and their mentors who are determined to pay any price to frustrate those Muslims who believe that God is capable of smiling, or that it is possible to change the earth without challenging Heaven. Their own people are their enemy. They see this with every suicide bomber that murders fellow Muslims. While our invasion in to Iraq has brought about the deaths of many innocents, we are not the ones that have raised their extremists to pervert Muhammed's preachings against his people. They have caused their own deaths. This civilization has raised it's own monsters.

1) Israel has never invaded any one of their countries. They have been in defense of their survival since 1949.

2) America did not tell the Arab governments to refrain from building universities, libraries, industry, world trade, economies, or to opress their people.

3) The "west" came to the rescue of Muslims in Saudi Arabia and re-instated Kuwait to other Muslims by kicking out a dictator they all feared. Then...we left. American interests and "oil" aside...the fact remains that we saved Muslims from this terror.

4) America, currently gives more foreign aid to "Palestine" than any other nation - to include their fellow Muslim states.

We are an imagined enemy and they hate us for nothing. We are a scapegoat for the Arab elite and it has gotten way out of hand. There was no way to change this mentality amongst the people without a shock to the system. Syria and Iran have internal struggles that definately allows for them to change on their own. The attitude today, is that "Saddam's Iraq is now a democracy....surely we can do it too." A successful Iraq is very important to our futures and theirs.

Have we driven extremists that already hated us to the fundamental camps and eventually across the Iraqi/Syrian border? Certainly. It's inevitable. Have we driven Muslims of indifference to take up arms? Likely, but not so damaging. We can not change the minds of people that have been raised to hate us through their sense of what "Allah" wants - no matter what we do. All we can do is encourage this civilization away from extremism and allow the generations to take care of their own society's disease. This means a life without oppression.

 

[Mickyjaystoned]

In response to some of the earlier posts i would like to say this;

Do you think George W Bush is in this war for the benefit of the global population or the global elite?

Do you think because we are called democratic societies our leaders conduct affairs to best fulfill the wishes of the general public or the capitalist bankers who ensure the leaders wealth and popularity?

Do you think because we are technologically advanced we are a rolemodel for civilisations?
Are these civilisations backwards because they believe in the persuit of knowledge and wisdom above the persuit of wealth and military strength?

Do you seriously believe this war will last more than a few years?
The world has seen to much violence in the last century she will not tolerate anymore of it, she will either become inhospitable to humans or humanity will realise it's faults and begin to live in unison with her again.

lay down your dogma, realise you are human and so are the fanatics, forget what you believe, these beliefs are only egotistical indulgencies, this is the era of the Psychotic, help these people by listening and understanding their problems, stop fighting like children, we have been fighting for millenia, how much longer do we have to?

 

[Iriemon]

The "war on terror" will take generations. There will not be a decisive victory over a peace table, but rather a continual decline of Islamic extremism over the years. Desperation fuels them. Opportunity and the free flow of information spread amongst their generations will see us to an end. For now, they can see things as they like and as they have been trained to see things their entire lives, but one thing is certain. When we leave, they will have to question the intent of the "invaders" in Iraq. They will be left to their own devices and the peaceful Muslims will have to defend themselves against the bloody-handed terrorists and their mentors who are determined to pay any price to frustrate those Muslims who believe that God is capable of smiling, or that it is possible to change the earth without challenging Heaven. Their own people are their enemy. They see this with every suicide bomber that murders fellow Muslims. While our invasion in to Iraq has brought about the deaths of many innocents, we are not the ones that have raised their extremists to pervert Muhammed's preachings against his people. They have caused their own deaths. This civilization has raised it's own monsters.

1) Israel has never invaded any one of their countries. They have been in defense of their survival since 1949.

2) America did not tell the Arab governments to refrain from building universities, libraries, industry, world trade, economies, or to opress their people.

3) The "west" came to the rescue of Muslims in Saudi Arabia and re-instated Kuwait to other Muslims by kicking out a dictator they all feared. Then...we left. American interests and "oil" aside...the fact remains that we saved Muslims from this terror.

4) America, currently gives more foreign aid to "Palestine" than any other nation - to include their fellow Muslim states.

We are an imagined enemy and they hate us for nothing. We are a scapegoat for the Arab elite and it has gotten way out of hand. There was no way to change this mentality amongst the people without a shock to the system. Syria and Iran have internal struggles that definately allows for them to change on their own. The attitude today, is that "Saddam's Iraq is now a democracy....surely we can do it too." A successful Iraq is very important to our futures and theirs.

Have we driven extremists that already hated us to the fundamental camps and eventually across the Iraqi/Syrian border? Certainly. It's inevitable. Have we driven Muslims of indifference to take up arms? Likely, but not so damaging. We can not change the minds of people that have been raised to hate us through their sense of what "Allah" wants - no matter what we do. All we can do is encourage this civilization away from extremism and allow the generations to take care of their own society's disease. This means a life without oppression.

All this is nice justification for why you think Islamic countries have not been good international citizens or have not developed themselves propoerly. Is your point that these things justify unilateral invasion?

You said: We can not change the minds of people that have been raised to hate us through their sense of what "Allah" wants - no matter what we do.

You think? I was raised to hate the the USSR, remember the "evil empire". I don't hate them today? You think once someone has a feeling about a nation that cannot change over time regardless of the circumstance?

In my experience most people are not so intractible.

Also, you did not really address my questions or concerns:

How does our indefinite occupation of Iraq hinder the "dark" fundamentalist forces of Islam and help forward the "enlightened" forces of Islam? I would think it accomplishes the opposite of our goal. Those who favor fundamentalism can justifiably argue that America (a nation of crusaders and zionists) invaded a Muslem country based upon false pretenses. They can argue justifiably that American forces are killing (and torturing) thousands of Muslems. They can justifiably argue that we invaded with the premise of a short term occupation, with clear and limited goals, yet 2 1/2 years later we have more troops there, and we won't even say when we will leave, except to give vague conditions that are always changing.

Are not our misadventures in Iraq giving the "dark side" effective justification for its position? How is that helping us win the war on terror? Every day we stay there is another day the dark side can legitimatly argue that how the crusaders and zionists want to take over their land, resources, and change their culture and religion.

Think for a moment how Americans felt when we were hit on 9/11. Americans were mad, united, and ready to fight. Our invasion of Iraq has caused 10x that many Iraqi deaths, and cause the deaths of scores of Muslems every single day. Aren't we giving the the Muslems the same kind of cultural unity and motivation and outrage against us with our continued occupation of Iraq? How is this helping our efforts to minimize the fundamentalism that fuels terrorists?

 

[MSgt]

All this is nice justification for why you think Islamic countries have not been good international citizens or have not developed themselves propoerly. Is your point that these things justify unilateral invasion?

You said: We can not change the minds of people that have been raised to hate us through their sense of what "Allah" wants - no matter what we do.

You think? I was raised to hate the the USSR, remember the "evil empire". I don't hate them today? You think once someone has a feeling about a nation that cannot change over time regardless of the circumstance?

In my experience most people are not so intractible.

Also, you did not really address my questions or concerns:

How does our indefinite occupation of Iraq hinder the "dark" fundamentalist forces of Islam and help forward the "enlightened" forces of Islam? I would think it accomplishes the opposite of our goal. Those who favor fundamentalism can justifiably argue that America (a nation of crusaders and zionists) invaded a Muslem country based upon false pretenses. They can argue justifiably that American forces are killing (and torturing) thousands of Muslems. They can justifiably argue that we invaded with the premise of a short term occupation, with clear and limited goals, yet 2 1/2 years later we have more troops there, and we won't even say when we will leave, except to give vague conditions that are always changing.

Are not our misadventures in Iraq giving the "dark side" effective justification for its position? How is that helping us win the war on terror? Every day we stay there is another day the dark side can legitimatly argue that how the crusaders and zionists want to take over their land, resources, and change their culture and religion.

Think for a moment how Americans felt when we were hit on 9/11. Americans were mad, united, and ready to fight. Our invasion of Iraq has caused 10x that many Iraqi deaths, and cause the deaths of scores of Muslems every single day. Aren't we giving the the Muslems the same kind of cultural unity and motivation and outrage against us with our continued occupation of Iraq? How is this helping our efforts to minimize the fundamentalism that fuels terrorists?

You are grounded in the event of the day. You are grounded in Abu-Graib and other such events. 15 years from now, as Muslims in Iraq get along better with each other and have enjoyed the prosperity that a democracy can provide, as we see Iran go through a change to reflect the large percentage of their polulation that is fractured from their Mullahs and theocratic government, and as we see Syria go through a change as they move further away from their current Baathist leadership...it will be all due to what we sparked in Iraq.

Never in history has any Muslim nation been allowed to vote on the leadership and laws that will govern them. This is a turning point for that region.

Your questions or concerns were addressed. They have been addressed over and over again. What you want is a yes or no answer. You won't get it, because everything we do will have a negative and positive reaction. They can argue all day how we take their lands and murder their people, but when we leave Iraq, what will they argue then? What did they argue after we took Kuwait back from Saddam and gave it back to the Muslim people? These people aren't stupid. They are misinformed and they have been indoctrinated to believe as they are taught. The price of allowing this civilization to continue to digress is too dangerous. America always has done best on frontiers, from our own West through technological frontiers to our pioneering of the society of the future, in which gender, racial, and religious equality increasingly prevail (to the horror of our Islamic Middle Eastern enemies). But people need to realize that there is not a bright, magical and immediate solution for the darkest region on earth. The Middle East will remain a strategic basket case beyond our lifetimes. We will need to remain engaged, but we must be careful not to be consumed. If you are looking for the hope of an immediate victory, look elsewhere. Where we can not change the minds of people that are determined to hate us, we can provide them the opportunity to raise their children without the oppressions they were raised in. We can allow them to provide a freer existence. One that allows for the free flow of information and for individual opportunity through better education. This is what is meant by..."this will take generations." Iraq is not the end all be all of this effort. If we allow the Middle East to fail themselves, we will see an eventual mushroom cloud on our soil that was detonated by an individual from the Middle East that was raised to hate and was raised under oppression. If Iraq didn't happen, we would still see this. The desperate always look to God. When a civilization lives and breathes on the whim of what Mullahs tell them is "Gods" will....the result is tragic.

The difference in you "hating" communism and an Islamic "hating" you is that you weren't raised under oppression and a dominating religion. You had access to multiple news programs. The free flow of information kept you educated. You were free. You weren't raised in a fanatic community of over zealous Christians that looked upon Soviets as the sworn enemy of God. Your government didn't pound away at how the "reds" have wrecked your society. Because you had no personal opportunity for success you weren't desperate to please God by killing others. Your experiences do not involve the wide range religiously fueled fanaticism that exists in the Middle East. This stuff isn't a fabrication and it is in no way a Bush invention. Never before in history have we faced a determined enemy like this. They do not want you to be you. They want you to embrace their God or die. They want Israel to denounce their God or die. Were not facing a bunch of Baptists that pass around snakes or a bunch of Jahova Witness that stalk your door way. This is an entire civilization. They are determined to hate us no matter what we do. The ones that have broken away from the routine extremists, who have taken to the terror camps over the decades, are determined to kill us. We have absolutely no choice anymore. Ignoring them or coddling them did not and will never work. We are not oppposed to living peacefully with them. It is they that will not live peacefully with us. Since progress is on our side, they must change to meet the rest of the world in the 21st century. What they want is for us to go backwards, because our progress is a threat to everything they believe in. Our successes laughs in the face of what the Arab's vision of "Allah" teaches them. All religious people are the same...they withdraw into their religion to protect it and to damn all non-believers. But when an entire civilization embraces the butchers that are "soldiering" the will of God against unarmed civilians...we must act. We can no longer allow them the "victim status." They are not the victims. Unless you are talking about their own governments, the truth is, they never were.

 

[Iriemon]

You are grounded in the event of the day. You are grounded in Abu-Graib and other such events. 15 years from now, as Muslims in Iraq get along better with each other and have enjoyed the prosperity that a democracy can provide, as we see Iran go through a change to reflect the large percentage of their polulation that is fractured from their Mullahs and theocratic government, and as we see Syria go through a change as they move further away from their current Baathist leadership...it will be all due to what we sparked in Iraq.

Never in history has any Muslim nation been allowed to vote on the leadership and laws that will govern them. This is a turning point for that region.

Turkey? Indonesia? Morroco? Jordan? Pakistan?

Your questions or concerns were addressed. They have been addressed over and over again. What you want is a yes or no answer.

That is kind of true. I want to know whether the you think most powerful country on earth invading a muslem country on false pretenses, making misrepresentations or misimplications about the purpose of our invasion and the legnth of our stay, leaving our troops there for an indefinite term, killing thousands of muslems and causing the death of tens of thousands, and killing muslems daily, is going to convince moderate muslems that we mean them no harm. If I were a Muslem it would sure make me question that nation's motives.

They can argue all day how we take their lands and murder their people, but when we leave Iraq, what will they argue then?

Depends on how we leave. If, once we had realized they had no WMDs we had said, sorry, we made a mistake, and made reparations, they would probably have thought we were honorable and credible. Now they have good reason to thing we are liars. And after promising to stay the course with no clearly defined agenda for when we are leaving, yeah, when we finally do leave those that oppose us will probably be able to claim victory. Way to go George.

What did they argue after we took Kuwait back from Saddam and gave it back to the Muslim people? These people aren't stupid. They are misinformed and they have been indoctrinated to believe as they are taught. The price of allowing this civilization to continue to digress is too dangerous. America always has done best on frontiers, from our own West through technological frontiers to our pioneering of the society of the future, in which gender, racial, and religious equality increasingly prevail (to the horror of our Islamic Middle Eastern enemies). But people need to realize that there is not a bright, magical and immediate solution for the darkest region on earth. The Middle East will remain a strategic basket case beyond our lifetimes. We will need to remain engaged, but we must be careful not to be consumed. If you are looking for the hope of an immediate victory, look elsewhere. Where we can not change the minds of people that are determined to hate us, we can provide them the opportunity to raise their children without the oppressions they were raised in. We can allow them to provide a freer existence. One that allows for the free flow of information and for individual opportunity through better education. This is what is meant by..."this will take generations." Iraq is not the end all be all of this effort. If we allow the Middle East to fail themselves, we will see an eventual mushroom cloud on our soil that was detonated by an individual from the Middle East that was raised to hate and was raised under oppression. If Iraq didn't happen, we would still see this. The desperate always look to God. When a civilization lives and breathes on the whim of what Mullahs tell them is "Gods" will....the result is tragic.

And by invading a muslem nation on false pretenses, locking people away without basic human rights, and killing muslems daily, we are going to convince them use our system? Throw in some fast food stops and porn stores and show them them the glory of American culutre?

The difference in you "hating" communism and an Islamic "hating" you is that you weren't raised under oppression and a dominating religion. You had access to multiple news programs. The free flow of information kept you educated. You were free. You weren't raised in a fanatic community of over zealous Christians that looked upon Soviets as the sworn enemy of God. Your government didn't pound away at how the "reds" have wrecked your society. Because you had no personal opportunity for success you weren't desperate to please God by killing others. Your experiences do not involve the wide range religiously fueled fanaticism that exists in the Middle East. This stuff isn't a fabrication and it is in no way a Bush invention. Never before in history have we faced a determined enemy like this. They do not want you to be you. They want you to embrace their God or die. They want Israel to denounce their God or die. Were not facing a bunch of Baptists that pass around snakes or a bunch of Jahova Witness that stalk your door way. This is an entire civilization. They are determined to hate us no matter what we do. The ones that have broken away from the routine extremists, who have taken to the terror camps over the decades, are determined to kill us. We have absolutely no choice anymore. Ignoring them or coddling them did not and will never work. We are not oppposed to living peacefully with them. It is they that will not live peacefully with us. Since progress is on our side, they must change to meet the rest of the world in the 21st century. What they want is for us to go backwards, because our progress is a threat to everything they believe in. Our successes laughs in the face of what the Arab's vision of "Allah" teaches them. All religious people are the same...they withdraw into their religion to protect it and to damn all non-believers. But when an entire civilization embraces the butchers that are "soldiering" the will of God against unarmed civilians...we must act. We can no longer allow them the "victim status." They are not the victims. Unless you are talking about their own governments, the truth is, they never were.

My attitude toward the USSR changed because Russia changed, not because of the society I lived in. It became less threatening.

You know, I was in Turkey with my family in 1975. No one tried to kill us. They didn't try to convert me to Allah. They didn't seem to hate us. In fact, one fellow we met invited us to dinner with his little village, and they took my dad and I fishing with them the next morning, and shared with us what they caught. We met several very nice muslem people there.

I haven't been to Turkey since then, but my dad has several times, and he reports that they are friendly to him.

Amazing for a civilization that is trying to kill all of us.

 

[MSgt]

Turkey? Indonesia? Morroco? Jordan? Pakistan?

Muslim nation meaning ARAB nation. Jordan is not a democracy. King Abdullah II called on his government and parliament in December 2003 to make "radical changes" aimed at turning Jordan into "a modern, democratic country." This has yet to occur, but is a tribute to the Middle East needing to change. He is a great man of vision and a man that fully understands his region's environment. Like reformists in Syria, he very much embraces Bush's sense of change. Way to embarrass yourself.

We are talking about the Middle East. Why is that with you I must always be perfectly clear? It's as if you relish in trying to purposefully add confusion. Your desire to lump all the world of Muslims and countries into the topic at hand to disrupt the natural flow of conversation is ignorant child's play. We are not talking about Turkey, Indonesia, India, or Pakistan. Islamic terrorism is largely a Middle Eastern Arab problem. Try to keep up.

Regarding Jordan, since your sense of reality comes from internet site propaganda...read up on what the King of Jordan thinks about the Middle East and how he wants his country to progress away from it...
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/12/01/jordan.democracy/

That is kind of true. I want to know whether the you think most powerful country on earth invading a muslem country on false pretenses, making misrepresentations or misimplications about the purpose of our invasion and the legnth of our stay, leaving our troops there for an indefinite term, killing thousands of muslems and causing the death of tens of thousands, and killing muslems daily, is going to convince moderate muslems that we mean them no harm. If I were a Muslem it would sure make me question that nation's motives.

Sure. What ever it took to spark change. I guess, because we are the "most powerful country on earth," we are only allowed to protect ourselves if our enemy is of equal power. But you whine, "Iraq wasn't a threat to us!" Same old obtuse views. Same old ignorance of the Middle East. Same old use of words that do not define the situation. Be thankful better men have studied this civilization long before Bush came along and told you what to be afraid of. If you were fooled by the "misimplications" and "misinterpretations", then smack yourself in the face and study the region for yourself and stop waiting to be spoon fed your reality.

Screw this. You have absolutely no understanding of the Middle East or Islamic terrorism and what is worse..you are determined to remain ignorant. Your criticisms and complaining bore me.

 

[Iriemon]

Muslim nation meaning ARAB nation. Jordan is not a democracy. King Abdullah II called on his government and parliament in December 2003 to make "radical changes" aimed at turning Jordan into "a modern, democratic country." This has yet to occur, but is a tribute to the Middle East needing to change. He is a great man of vision and a man that fully understands his region's environment. Like reformists in Syria, he very much embraces Bush's sense of change. Way to embarrass yourself.

We are talking about the Middle East. Why is that with you I must always be perfectly clear? It's as if you relish in trying to purposefully add confusion. Your desire to lump all the world of Muslims and countries into the topic at hand to disrupt the natural flow of conversation is ignorant child's play. We are not talking about Turkey, Indonesia, India, or Pakistan. Islamic terrorism is largely a Middle Eastern Arab problem. Try to keep up.

You say: Never in history has any Muslim nation been allowed to vote on the leadership and laws that will govern them. This is a turning point for that region.

And because I don't divine you made a mistake and meant the M.E. I'm embarrasing myslef and not keeping up. LOL! OK.

Regarding Jordan, since your sense of reality comes from internet site propaganda...read up on what the King of Jordan thinks about the Middle East and how he wants his country to progress away from it...
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/12/01/jordan.democracy/

You are correct, and I agree it doesn't seem to be a model democracy but did appear to have had some degree of represenative elections. But I admit I'm not an expert on Jordon.

Sure. What ever it took to spark change. I guess, because we are the "most powerful country on earth," we are only allowed to protect ourselves if our enemy is of equal power.

No, we can act in self defense when we are attacked.

But you whine, "Iraq wasn't a threat to us!" Same old obtuse views. Same old ignorance of the Middle East. Same old use of words that do not define the situation.

And your whole theory is based on that it was. And the WMDs are hiding under a sand pile somewhere. Sure. Good luck convincing the average guy in the ME of that.

Be thankful better men have studied this civilization long before Bush came along and told you what to be afraid of. If you were fooled by the "misimplications" and "misinterpretations", then smack yourself in the face and study the region for yourself and stop waiting to be spoon fed your reality.

I do. I felt we were rushing into Iraq, I wondered why the inspectors had found nothing, but I admit the reconstituted nukes and hundreds of tons of chemical weapons and terrorist support and all the rest of the BS that was being fed us had me worried. Shame on me for believing them. Shame on you for continuing to do so.

Screw this. You have absolutely no understanding of the Middle East or Islamic terrorism and what is worse..you are determined to remain ignorant. Your criticisms and complaining bore me.

Sure. And when are they going to start welcoming us as liberators again?

Sorry, some of us only buy so much BS before we start to question it.

 

[oldreliable67]

I wondered why the inspectors had found nothing

I, too, wondered why the inspectors found nothing. More specifically, I wondered what had happened to all of those weapons that the inspectors were unable to account for, and the Iraqis would not or could not. I really don't want to start this again, but if you want to see a very complete history with docs, etc, see cnredd's very comprehensive posts on the topic.

We know they had them. What did they do with them?

Good luck convincing the average guy in the ME of that.

And now you know how the average guy in the ME thinks and what the average guy in the ME believes? I really doubt that.

 

[cnredd]

I, too, wondered why the inspectors found nothing. More specifically, I wondered what had happened to all of those weapons that the inspectors were unable to account for, and the Iraqis would not or could not. I really don't want to start this again, but if you want to see a very complete history with docs, etc, see cnredd's very comprehensive posts on the topic.

We know they had them. What did they do with them?



And now you know how the average guy in the ME thinks and what the average guy in the ME believes? I really doubt that.

Hey, thanks for the publicity!...:2wave:

Posts are here and here...

 

[hipsterdufus]

Yes i agree totally, but this is just a smokescreen for the real reasons for war, property attainment, wealth accumulation, population control, weapons developement and population control.

Ever since these two religions were created from the Hebrew holy book the Torah, they have been fierce adversaries, designed from the one book to seperate those who had faith in Judaism, they are conflicting religions, they are differant religions, they both hold massive control over their followers through Dogma and indoctrination and they have both accounted for millions of deaths over the centuries.

The War on terror is a war on humanity carried out by the most inhumain people since Adolf Hitler, nothing more nothing less.

I agree with you on some points here, but I do think if we really wanted to, the US could just go over to the Middle East and TAKE all of the oil we want.

I wouldn't make the Hitler analogy though - worst case scenario most of this crap in Iraq will be over by 2009. There's no way the country will elect someone who wants to escalate the war in Iraq.

I think Bush thought he would get a quick little hit and run victory - like Grenada or Kuwait. Great for his polls, great for defense contractors, great for the Republican party. He and Rove rode the war against terror all the way to victory in 2004 - but now the house of cards is slowly crumbling....

Get the popcorn.

Let's hope not too many Americans die needlessly, both in Iraq and in America. This week the 9/11 commission has once again shown us that America is WOEFULLY unprepared for another attack on American soil, but we knew that - didn't we from Katrina. There must not be enough money in it I guess. Sorry to sound so cynical, but I have to follow the money when it comes to issues like these.

 

[Billo_Really]

I have met many muslims in my line of work (engineering), and 99% of them have been the kindest, loving and caring people you would ever meet.

 

[Iriemon]

And now you know how the average guy in the ME thinks and what the average guy in the ME believes? I really doubt that.

You reckon the average guy in the ME believes Saddam had WMDs we was about to use on us, and just managed to hide them before the US legitimately invaded? Could be.

 

[oldreliable67]

You reckon the average guy in the ME believes Saddam had WMDs we was about to use on us, and just managed to hide them before the US legitimately invaded? Could be.

Yeah, the average guy in the ME was listening to Baghdad Bob. :lol:

 

[hipsterdufus]

While most Muslims may not be terrorist, most support terrorist. Don't forget the dancing in the streets after 9/11 & anytime Americans die, Muslims get very happy & hand out sweets, but you won't see that in the liberal media.

This is an absurd comment - of course you have no facts to back it up.
This is the kind of racist thinking that leads us to the solutution that we should just nuke the Middle East and be done with it.

This line of reasoning is just as ridicoulous as saying that all blacks were happy when OJ got off.

Here are a few Muslims For Peace organisations that are doing their best to work for peace.

As to apologizing, we will no longer wait for our religious leaders and “intellectuals” to do the right thing. Instead, we will start by apologizing for 9-11. We are so sorry that 3000 people were murdered in our name. We will never forget the sight of people jumping from two of the highest buildings in the world hoping against hope that if they moved their arms fast enough that they may fly and survive a certain death from burning. We are sorry for blaming 9-11 on a Jewish or right wing conspiracy. We are so sorry for the murder of more than three hundred school children and adults in Russia. We are so sorry for the murder of train passengers in Spain. We are so sorry for all the victims of suicide bombings. We are so sorry for the beheadings, abductions, rapes, violent Jihad and all the atrocities committed by Muslims around the world. We are so sorry for a religious education that raised killers rather than train people to do good in the world. We are sorry that we did not take the time to teach our children tolerance and respect for other people. We are so sorry for not rising up against the dictators who have ruled the Muslim world for decades. We are so sorry for allowing corruption to spread so fast and so deep in the Muslim world that many of our youth lost hope. We are so sorry for allowing our religious leaders to relegate women to the status of forth class citizens at best and sub-humans at worse.

We are so sorry.

http://www.freemuslims.org/news/article.php?article=148

Beloved Friend and Reader,

Assalamu `Alaykum!

Is Islam's message that of violence? Or can Muslims be agents of peace & nonviolence?

In the wake of September 11th and the War, we've compiled for you some of the best Muslim voices of peace from six years of publishing Assalamu ``Alaykum, MPF's newsletter of peacemaking.

Yours in peace,
The folks at MPF

Email:mpf@mpfweb.org

Muslims for Peace
http://www.mpfweb.org/200110_asa.html

 

[Inuyasha]

Some people have expressed the idea that ME Arab Muslims have conspired to carry out a holy war against the West. I don't believe this for a minute. If you read the writings of T.E. Lawrence his biggest problem was trying to organize the Arabs. It was true then and not much has changed in 70 years. Most of them are so economically oppressed that they are still living in the 19th century. Take a look at how they are unable to bring these different tribal groups and sects together. If they can't do that how the hell are they going to form a working conspiracy to fight the evil Christans and Jews and on and on. No way in Hell, that's how. These are a few fundamentalist who are hated even by their own families but if the other Arabs don't help they will continue to be a thorn in the side of society.

 

[oldreliable67]

Inyuasha,

Arab Muslims have conspired to carry out a holy war against the West. I don't believe this for a minute.

What does this sound like to you:

"On that basis, and in compliance with God's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies--civilians and military--is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it,..."

Source is bin Laden's 1998 fatwa.

Notice that the fatwa is issued to "all Muslims". Notice that the instructions are to kill Americans whether civilian or militrary and to do so wherever possible?

If your still not convinced, just google "salafist" or "salafist jihad" and you'll plenty of evidence.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally Posted by oldreliable67
Notice that the fatwa is issued to "all Muslims". Notice that the instructions are to kill Americans whether civilian or militrary and to do so wherever possible?

If your still not convinced, just google "salafist" or "salafist jihad" and you'll plenty of evidence.

Have you noticed not all Americans buy into George Bushes fatwa's (or equivalent thereof) either?

 

[oldreliable67]

Billo,

Have you noticed not all Americans buy into George Bushes fatwa's (or equivalent thereof) either?

Yep. Sure have. And isnt it nice to live in a country where we have the freedom to that, and to come to places like DP and debate such? And wouldn't it be a shame to lose this to the jihadis?

To repeat something I just posted on another thread...

History is what it is - unless modified by the revisionists, of course.

A little research will show that over the years, the theory of how to best put forward the interests of the American people has changed, often from one administration to the next administration. Sure, there have been times when we supported dictators; we did so when we thought it was in our best interest to do so. Often, we publicly tolerated dictators while simultaneously working with pro-democratic groups to overthrow the dictators and establish democratic governments. Sometimes it worked; sometimes it didn't.

Over that same history, there have been factions within the US government that have fought such activities tooth and nail. Others have supported it. I don't recall there ever being a time of unanimity except in times of national peril (WWII).

This is all by way of saying: that was then, this is now. Times change and theories of what is in our best interest changes. For example, google on 'new realism' and 'kissinger' and 'theories of foreign policy' and peruse the various approaches to foreign policy. Note especially the evolution over time, especially between presidencys.

We made mistakes in the past- some of which were evident only in hindsight -and we had some successes - most of which go unremarked on in favor of highlighting the mistakes, 'cause thats what sells papers.

No doubt such will be the case again in the future.

Just my opinion - YMMV.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally Posted by oldreliable67
A little research will show that over the years, the theory of how to best put forward the interests of the American people has changed, often from one administration to the next administration. Sure, there have been times when we supported dictators; we did so when we thought it was in our best interest to do so. Often, we publicly tolerated dictators while simultaneously working with pro-democratic groups to overthrow the dictators and establish democratic governments. Sometimes it worked; sometimes it didn't.

Over that same history, there have been factions within the US government that have fought such activities tooth and nail. Others have supported it. I don't recall there ever being a time of unanimity except in times of national peril (WWII).

This is all by way of saying: that was then, this is now. Times change and theories of what is in our best interest changes. For example, google on 'new realism' and 'kissinger' and 'theories of foreign policy' and peruse the various approaches to foreign policy. Note especially the evolution over time, especially between presidencys.

We made mistakes in the past- some of which were evident only in hindsight -and we had some successes - most of which go unremarked on in favor of highlighting the mistakes, 'cause thats what sells papers.

No doubt such will be the case again in the future.

Just my opinion - YMMV.

I disagree. It is also my opinion as well. Good post.

 

[Inuyasha]

Inyuasha,



What does this sound like to you:

"On that basis, and in compliance with God's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies--civilians and military--is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it,..."

Source is bin Laden's 1998 fatwa.

Notice that the fatwa is issued to "all Muslims". Notice that the instructions are to kill Americans whether civilian or militrary and to do so wherever possible?

If your still not convinced, just google "salafist" or "salafist jihad" and you'll plenty of evidence.

Funny you should mention the "Salafistas". Seven were arrested in Spain today and I think 10 last week. They need to be watched (which it appears they are).

In reference to the "Fatwas", first it is my understanding that according to Muslim law bin-Laden or Al-Zarkawe and the like cannot issue a legal fatwa and so their fatwa in any religious terms, are meaningless. That doesn't mean that the content doesn't regester with some more militant Arabs and even North Africans. However it is more like an edict issued by something like "The Aryan Brotherhood" or "Los Guerilleros de Cristo Rey", The last being a group of Catholic militants but witout section of the Church.

It's not weather one is convinced or not. The evidence is there that there are fundamentalist groups in the Arab world that mean us harm. My belief is that if we keep a low profile these people, in typical Arab fashon, will begin to turn on each other as Lawrence notes in his works, thereby saving us quite a bit of trouble, effort, money and loss of human life. The only thing that worries me is the fundamenlists access to dirty nuclear devices.

Rather than a traditional military action, which is proving to be pretty ineffective against these small cells, a better tactic would be covert operations, assassination and infiltration of the bin-Laden type "false profits". But this means changing the whole concept of the West's approach to the situation. Is that possible? You'd have to ask Rumsfeld and his opposite number among the Western nations. Also important in this type of strategy is to let Iran know that we are not going after them. They must be completely convinced of this, actually not matter what strategy is used. To have Iran as an enemy or even in the equation is not a good idea at all. The whole thing must be directed towards Arabs not Kurds or Turks or Persians.