the War on TERROR IS A LIE

[MSgt]

I didn't say "...they would cease to hate us...". Go back and re-read what I said. Because apparantly you weren't listening. You do that a lot.

No need to go back. I'll pull it forward to expose your simpleton tactics....

In Post#31 I replied to your post.....

If what your saying has any salt at all, then by taking us out of the equation as aggressors, they would continue their terrorist ways. But I don't think they would. I think, all they want, is for us to stop bombing their neighborhoods.

with...

If you subscribe to this rediculous notion that they will stop this Radical movement simply "if we stop bombing their neighborhoods" is pathetic.

Then in Post #41 I replied to your post where you pathetically tried to back up your assertions that "if we removed ourselves from the equation as agressors and stopped bombing their neighborhoods then their terrorist ways would stop." I replied to your words....

If we don't bomb their neighborhoods,
why are a bunch of them living here...

with....

Bull shiit. We do not "bomb" their neighborhoods. What neighborhoods in Iran do we bomb? What neighborhoods in Saudi Arabia do we bomb? What neighborhoods in Syria do we bomb? Before trouble wih Saddam, what neighborhoods in Iraq did we bomb? It's this ignorant sentiment based on lies and deceit that gives these people ammo against their imagined enemy. Keep in mind that the Muslim Brotherhood was created in 1929 and Radical Islam was a movement long before Iraq. So, to sum up your reply and to use a comparison.....the japanese attacked Pearl Harbor because we dropped a couple nukes on their soil.

Then in Post #48 you replied with....

I didn't say "...they would cease to hate us...". Go back and re-read what I said. Because apparantly you weren't listening. You do that a lot.

Which brings us to now.....I fail to see anywhere where I said you said, "they would cease to hate us." What I accused you of saying is exactly what you said, "If what your saying has any salt at all, then by taking us out of the equation as aggressors, they would continue their terrorist ways. But I don't think they would. I think, all they want, is for us to stop bombing their neighborhoods." and then I went in to ask you about the neihborhoods of the Middle East and this fantasy neighborhood bombings that created Islamic terrorism. I think it's you that once again tripped over your own emotions and feelings as you sacrificed logic.

Why don't you talk about something you know about? Like killing people. You remind me of the Nazi's. Hell bent on ridding the earth of muslim's. What's the matter, mommy didn't hold you long enough when you were a little baby. You didn't get to play ball with dad in the yard. What's your problem? Why all the hate? You hate a lot. You also cannot fight hate with more hate.

:roll: I believe I've written the most elequent pieces regarding Islam, Radical Islam, the Middle East and what is and is not our enemy. Your sophomoric accusations that "I want to rid the earth of Muslims" in the face of written proof post after post is yet another emotional outburst of frustrations. Same old Billo.

You hate so much, that you cannot even conceive of how wrong it is to destroy a city of 300,000 residents just to get to one tenth of one percent of the people there.

Was it one tenth of one percent of the people? Is that the anti-war fantasy now? How's that dead count in Iraq? Are we still at 30,000 or did it go back to 100,000 or 50,000 again? Your futile attempts at accuracy continues to embarrass you.

You just keep on trying to justify genocide.

Genocide? Define genocide. Here, your desperation hinders you. I'll do it for you...."The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group." I've yet to see this, but I'm sure there is a Sunni doctor somewhere that can feed you what you need to believe.

Instead spending so much time on your ad hominum attacks on me or my sources, why don't you prove them wrong with factual evidence.

Hominum attacks? Read above. :roll: Prove them right with factual evidence. Despite your moaning on what you think is right or wrong, reality claims neither. You can whine all day about everything you despise that occurs in a war that you don't agree with as opposed to a war you do agree with, but at the end of the day, you know nothing about anything that pertains to this subject.

Because your lame, war-mongering, facist, bombastic hyperbole gets old.

Seems to me that many people enjoy my blunt face of reality and my willingness to accept it in the face of dreamers, liars, and exxagerators that whine about what should be as opposed to the way it is.


Wow. You used to be better at this. You've tripped all over yourself all through this thread. Maybe you should have stayed on vacation from me.

 

[MSgt]

Aren't you a little old to play "make believe?" The hospital had not even opened yet. The equipment had never been used. More to the point, why did we target it in the first place?

I've explained this to you. Grow up and stop acting like a child. Every building bombed before we went in was identified by local Sunni intelligence as a safe haven or a HQ for the enemy. Does this matter to you? I doubt it. You'll continue to cry that it was a hospital..waaaaah. Damn you're pathetic. Oh but wait......you read about a Sunni Doctor (which you claim as credible because he is a ..ahem...a doctor.) who's hospital just got bombed that we were wrong. He also said that "it was the only hospital in that region of the country." Of course, we know that there were three hospitals in Fallujah and two bigger hospitals right next door in Ramadi. You're in the wrong country. The one's you support are over there.

Why did we bomb the al Jazeera news headquarters after they gave us their GPS coordinates to prevent it?

Because Al-Jazeera is the propagandous machine of our enemies. Oh but wait....you believe Al-Jazeera is credible to "facts" to the Muslim people..right? Again..you're in the wrong country. The one's you support are over there.

I saw a marine with my own eyes murder someone in a mosque because he was pissed off.

So what if you did? Produce the video. Would this be the video of the shooting of the wounded individual? An event that occurred after wide sweeping reports of Iraqi soldiers feigning injury to lure out Marines into the open so that their buddies could shoot them? The same tactics that would take advantage of our Laws of War and moralities? You rememebr don't you? Oh, no you don't. You weren't there. I guess that video allowed you to see all that went on with your "own two eyes."

War is hell. Things happen. Individuals lash out and act unproffesional. That's what the leaders are there for. I wonder how many Marines or "soldiers" murdered in Afghanistan or in WWII? Oh, but wait....you agreed with those wars, so we won't go there.

The more hate that spills out of your mouth, the more I believe we are a tyrannical regime.

What hate? More accusations made to one of the few individuals on this site who has made arguments explaining the difference between Islam, Radical Islam, and this civilization? What a loser tactic.

We took out Hussein, but did we give them a 120,000 little Hussein's running around shooting there innocent civilians?

We created them? It wouldn't be that Sunni and Shi'ites are forced to live within the same borders and they have deep rooted tribal and sect hatred towards each other? This is further proof of how little you know about the subject. This is the big boy table. Kids are too the left. I believe "Conflict" has a seat saved for you.

You react to a civilians death the same way you react to a terrorists death. I don't think you know the difference!

Hmmmmm.....more obtuseness. I could say the same thing about you. Of course I know the difference. I've simply accepted a long time ago that death happens in all wars (and even in the ones you agree with).

We should spare and protect innocent civillians whenever possible, but should not let the prospect of civillian casualties interfere with ultimate mission accomplishment. This is the difference in how I (a Marine) faces the reality of combat and how you (an emotional wreck from confines of comfort) faces the reality of combat. We should avoid a "planning creep" (Try to keep up here). Within our vast bureacratic system, too many voices compete for attention and innumerable agendas - often selfish and personal - intrude on any attempt to act decisively (First Fallujah). We should focus on the basic mission - the destruction of the terrorists - with all the moral, intellectual and practical rigor we can bring to bear. All other issues, from future nation-building, to alliance consensus, to humanitarian concerns are secondary (Second Fallujah).

When in doubt, we should hit harder than we think is necessary. Success will be forgiven. Even the best-intentioned failure will not. When military force is used against terrorist networks, it should be used with such power that it stuns even our allies. We must get over our "cowardice in means." While small-scale raids and other knife-point operations are useful against individual targets, broader operations should be overwhelming. Of course, targetting limitations may inhibit some efforts - but, whenever possible, maximum force should be used to supplement initial target lists with extensive bombing attacks on "nothing" if they can increase the initial psycological impact. We should demonstrate power whenever we can. Show, don't tell.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by GySgt:
I've explained this to you. Grow up and stop acting like a child. Every building bombed before we went in was identified by local Sunni intelligence as a safe haven or a HQ for the enemy. Does this matter to you? I doubt it. You'll continue to cry that it was a hospital..waaaaah. Damn you're pathetic. Oh but wait......you read about a Sunni Doctor (which you claim as credible because he is a ..ahem...a doctor.) who's hospital just got bombed that we were wrong. He also said that "it was the only hospital in that region of the country." Of course, we know that there were three hospitals in Fallujah and two bigger hospitals right next door in Ramadi. You're in the wrong country. The one's you support are over there.

You don't explain anything. You get on your little neocon soap box and pontificate as if you had something earth shattering to say that people would want to hear. I want to know why we targeted a hospital. I want to know why we are not taking measures to protect innocent people in that country we illegally invaded. War is supposed to be a last resort when all else fails and you absolutely have to take military action because hostilities are imminent. That is not the case here. We did not have to go to war when we did. Iraq was complying with all UN resolutions.

You talk a lot crap about what you think you know. You also told me that we didn't destroy 75% of Falluja. So who's the liar? And you still haven't addressed the issue of us destroying a city the size of Long Beach to get to just a handful of insurgents. The fact that this doesn't register with you speaks volumes. How would you like that to be your town? Why did we shoot people from our helicopters trying to swim across the river? Why did we drive tanks over the wounded in the streets of Iraq? I don't care what kind of day that SOB marine had when he murdered that guy in the mosque. But that was murder.

You also haven't addressed the fact that Hussein was not a threat to anyone. So why the rush to war? People like you are destroying the very fabric this nation was built on. Your about as un-American as it gets. Americans believe in the rule of law. Americans don't start fights, but always finish them. We started this one against the objections of the entire world. That's another issue you don't have the guts to address. I'm not the only one that is saying this war is illegal and immoral. There were demonstrations around the globe in protest of this war. 400,000 marched on Washington. You had 400 march for yours. That ought tell you your war-mongering days are just an mid-term election away from being over.

You duck and run from every issue being raised. Iraq was not a threat. It was not Bush's call to make. And I certainly don't give a rats a.s.s what you think of me. I'm in your face! And this is where I'm gonna stay until this war is over. So you might as well roll up your sleeves and get comfortable. This is going to be a long one. I might even enjoy this.

 

[easyt65]

Hey Bill, when were you over there?

You say you witnessed a marine off a guy in a mosque just because he was angry - when? Did you report it? (Sounds like Kerry testifying that he witnessed soldiers committing war crimes. Of course, after that felony, he lated admitted that he never saw squat but was jump-starting his anti-war political career with the false testimony.)

As far as you blabbering on about the U.S. targeting hospitals, orphanages, radio stations, etc....
1. We do not deliberately target civilians or civilian targets like that unless it is deemed absolutely necessary. Case in point, during the war we struck a hospital because they had built one of their main command centers under it with a missile battery on top of it. We did some recon, found out there were no civilians inside and took it out. If there had been civilians inside, eliminating that target was CRITICAL to the war effort, and there was no other way around it, then - and only then - would we take it out anyway. Would it be regrettable? Yes!
2. Collateral damage is unavoidable, ever with today's smart bombs and GPS guidance.
3. Bombed Al Jazeera's station?! I think it was well freakin' overdue. One of the 1st things we take out when going in somewhere is the Command and ctonrol centers and their ability to communicate, as well as their ability to spread propoganda. Al Jazeera is one big terrorist News Network working hand in hand with terrorists, like the guys who beheaded Nick Berg! A terropristtakes one of my people and then want to show it to the world on Muslim TV to a)rally the troops, b)attack the resolve and morale of our troops and people back home, and c)to belittle the life of one of outr own, yiou better believe I am going to take down your ability to broadcast. If Al jazeera would just say, 'No, I am not going to broadcast this' the terrorists would not have a medium through which to show things like that. If you have no way to show the world such brutality it would dry up. Yeah, they would probably still find a way to kill us and would do so, but it wouldn't be for their benefit before the eyes of the world. Al Jazeera is just as much a terror organization for the lies they spread and what they have done as the PLO, Hamas, or any other group!

The war on Terror - that is what this thread is about - is NOT a lie! It wasn't a lie on 9/11. It was NOT a lie to those who died in the Kobar towers, on the U.S.S. Cole, or the African Embassies bombed by Al Qaeda. The war being fought in Iraq is being gought there instead of on our own soil. Because it is being fought there is the reaspn we have not had more 9/11 here! There is a freakin' war, and Bin Laden has put out tape after tape declaring that war on the United States. He has sworn more 9-11s are coming!

there is a chance in Iraq to do something thathas never been done before, and that is to bring the Shiites and the Sunis together to form a democratic goverment in the heart of the Middle East! IF that works, it could lead to the change of everything! We continue to fight over there because we believe in it and because there are those over there who believe in it too and want us to stay to help them see it through. You and all the gutless cowards like Hillary, dean, and Kerry have been attacking our troops - not like the terrorists with IEDs but with words by calling them Nazis and terrorists, baby/civilian killers! And all for personal power/politics - to regain the White House, those self-proclaimed Democratic party leaders hav been throwing our troops under the bus, attacking our President and trying to take him down during a time of war (thus weakening this country), and praying to God that we lose JUST so they can say 'We told you so, now it's OUR turn!'

To me, anyone that would do that is a friggin' traitor to this country and is no better than those Muslims who are attacking their own people in Iraq in hopes their country will fail so that they will rise to power once more. The difference is that the insurgents are using IEDs and the Democrats are using words and political maneuvering/ambushes/personal attacks to try to bring this country down! [If replying - address THAT one 1st before becoming legalistic and attacking BS points of party-1st politics!]

 

[akyron]

Are you going tell me that a doctor, someone who has taken an oath to save lives, is not a credible source?

Well yeah.
The main perpetrators

"Hayashi Ikuo
Prior to joining AUM, Hayashi was a senior medical doctor

Hirose Ken'ichi Holder of a postgraduate degree in Physics

Toyoda Tōru studied applied physics at Tokyo University's Science Department and graduated with honours.

Yokoyama Masato He was a graduate in applied physics from Tokai University's Engineering Department.

Hayashi Yasuo He studied artificial intelligence at Kogakuin University."

Terrorists dont necessarily have to be stupid. Well indoctrinated and committed is all it takes.

 

[easyt65]

Originally Posted by Billo_Really
Why don't you talk about something you know about? Like killing people. You remind me of the Nazi's. Hell bent on ridding the earth of muslim's. What's the matter, mommy didn't hold you long enough when you were a little baby. You didn't get to play ball with dad in the yard. What's your problem?

Well Thank you, Senator Dick Durbin, for that scalding personal attack on the U.S. Military and anyone who does not believe exactly what you do! Hell, the only thing you didn't do was resort to the Democratic party post-2004 Election Voter-Attack by calling him a Redneck, In-bred, Bible-thumper for not seeing things your way!

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

You remind me of Josef Goebles talking about the Jew's.

Actually you and Robodoon sound like Goebles when you talk of these world wide conspiracies, as a matter of fact the lineage of Islamo-fascism can be traced back to the anti-Jewish propaganda of the third reich. The Grand Mufti ring any bells? Catch a clue.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally Posted by GySgt
If you subscribe to this rediculous notion that they will stop this Radical movement simply "if we stop bombing their neighborhoods" is pathetic.

What's pathetic is you think there is nothing wrong with bombing their neighborhoods. You've spent so much time on the Middle East that you have forgotton what it means to be an American. Which is we defend democracy and the rule of law. Do you what a law is? I doubt it. In fact, you couldn't spell "Law" if I spotted you the "L" and the "A!"

I posted the proof and you provided nothing in return. Everything you have posted shows you are very well versed on the Middle East. But nothing you have posted justifies attacking a nation that did not attack us first. Article 51 of the UN Charter is one of our laws. And you can shoot your war-mongering, Muslim hating bullshit all you want, but it doesn't take from the fact that we are a nation of laws. We broke one by invading.

I want an investigation into why we targeted a hospital. I'm not going to support troops like that. I'm not going to support lawlessness by the military. Obey the law!

You've shown your very intelligent. But your problem is that you haven't found a way to turn that into wisdom. Just fanantism.

 

[easyt65]

What's pathetic is you think there is nothing wrong with bombing their neighborhoods. You've spent so much time on the Middle East that you have forgotton what it means to be an American. Which is we defend democracy and the rule of law. Do you what a law is? I doubt it. In fact, you couldn't spell "Law" if I spotted you the "L" and the "A!"

I posted the proof and you provided nothing in return. Everything you have posted shows you are very well versed on the Middle East. But nothing you have posted justifies attacking a nation that did not attack us first. Article 51 of the UN Charter is one of our laws. And you can shoot your war-mongering, Muslim hating bullshit all you want, but it doesn't take from the fact that we are a nation of laws. We broke one by invading.

I want an investigation into why we targeted a hospital. I'm not going to support troops like that. I'm not going to support lawlessness by the military. Obey the law!

You've shown your very intelligent. But your problem is that you haven't found a way to turn that into wisdom. Just fanantism.

You have so many lies, false/wrong statements, etc that I wouldn't even know where to start my response.....

and you have proven yourself to be such a GOP/military-hating Bush-bashing die hard that I would be wasting my time talking to you and trying to convince you of anything anyway, so I will not even waste my time. Thanks you for explaining where YOU stand. Have a nice day.

Oh, you might want to think about changing your loggin name to something more appropriate like JohnF*ingKerry or DICKTurbin...er, Durbin.

 

[Navy Pride]

Bottom line is our military go out of their way even if it means risking their own lives to try and hold down civilian casualties in Iraq.......To insinuate anything else is outrageous and just further shows the utter contempt, disdain and hatred the left has for our military.........

 

[oldreliable67]

Iraq was complying with all UN resolutions.

Don't think so.

November 7 2002: by unanimously adopting Resolution 1441, which found Iraq in "material breach" of prior resolutions, the UN set up a new inspections regime, and warned once again of "serious consequences" if Iraq again failed to disarm.

Source.

And there is 1154, from March 2, 1998: Iraq commits to fully comply with weapons inspections. Which was followed by 1194 on September 9, 1998, which condemned the Iraq decision to suspend cooperation with UNSCOM and the IAEA.

Not to mention the various 'Oil-for-Food' resolutions that Saddam was using to game the UN.

You can see all the resolutions here.

 

[MSgt]

You don't explain anything. You get on your little neocon soap box and pontificate as if you had something earth shattering to say that people would want to hear. I want to know why we targeted a hospital.

Answered enough times. All can read. More frustrations. You do love your circles don't you?

I want to know why we are not taking measures to protect innocent people in that country we illegally invaded.

Who say's we're not? These people are killing each other and bombing each others mosques. They are determined to do this. Welcome to Middle Eastern Islam, where without a dictator and left to their own devices to build a modern society...they are failing.

War is supposed to be a last resort when all else fails and you absolutely have to take military action because hostilities are imminent. That is not the case here. We did not have to go to war when we did. Iraq was complying with all UN resolutions.

All of them? Saddam tested us and he payed for it. There are bigger issues than just little ole Iraq.

You talk a lot crap about what you think you know.

You're right. I should instead criticize every aspect of the war while watching it on TV.

You also told me that we didn't destroy 75% of Falluja. So who's the liar?

Prove 75 percent. Most of that city still stands.....liar. And yes....repeating probable lies from anti-war sites makes one a liar as well.

And you still haven't addressed the issue of us destroying a city the size of Long Beach to get to just a handful of insurgents. The fact that this doesn't register with you speaks volumes.

Answered enough times and on this thread. You continue to fumble your frustations into a circle.

How would you like that to be your town?

It's not.

Why did we shoot people from our helicopters trying to swim across the river?

They were the enemt. (Shhhhh....we also shoot our enemies in the back.)

Why did we drive tanks over the wounded in the streets of Iraq?

I don't know. Maybe you should ask the individual (s) that did it instead of painting how murderous and evil the military is. Besides that...prove it even happened.[/QUOTE]

I don't care what kind of day that SOB marine had when he murdered that guy in the mosque. But that was murder.

Say's you, but you really wouldn't know would you? Arm chair quartebacks are always the most critical. You have shown time and again that you are unwilling to understand the real world and the stresses of combat. (But you understand the happenings in Afghnaistan, because you agree with that war...right?)

You also haven't addressed the fact that Hussein was not a threat to anyone. So why the rush to war?

Addressed innumerable times. This circle of yours smacks of frustrated desperation. Hey, I have an idea...in your next post, ask about the bombed out Hospital in Fallujah and declare that I haven't addressed it yet.:roll:

People like you are destroying the very fabric this nation was built on.

That's a shame.

Your about as un-American as it gets. Americans believe in the rule of law. Americans don't start fights, but always finish them.

Really? Seems to me that a whole lot of "Americans" wanted and voted to send us to war in Iraq. I guess they weren't "real" Americans...right Billo?

We started this one against the objections of the entire world. That's another issue you don't have the guts to address.

That's right, but I thought you said that "Americans" don't start fights just above? Now you are saying that "Americans" started this one?

Not Address? What's to address? I don't care what the rest of the world thinks. Never have. The rest of the world chose the past with regards to Saddam. Those that did not participate chose "Old Europe" thinking over the future. The act of making onelsef comfortably impotent behind words like "soveriegnty" is prehistoric. (Whew...it took a lot of "guts" to say that. Of course, I've typed this alll before too.) These cartoons have changed quite a few minds about this civilization. Of course, some of us knew about this civilization all along didn't we?

I'm not the only one that is saying this war is illegal and immoral. There were demonstrations around the globe in protest of this war. 400,000 marched on Washington. You had 400 march for yours. That ought tell you your war-mongering days are just an mid-term election away from being over.

All things come to an end. But in the end.....we don't have to worry about Saddam. And don't worry, America will always have a war. "Americans" will always see to that. The same Liberals that protested during Vietnam voted us into Iraq. Today's protesters will vote us in somewhere elose in time. See how I do that? I face reality and deal with it. I do not whine and cry and stand back with some self-righteous pointed finger declaring wehat is "right" and "wrong" with complete disregard for everything involved. You can do this too...nah...I doubt it.

You duck and run from every issue being raised.

Bewahahaha. Everyone who has read this and knows my history on this site knows very well what a pathetic lie this is. Maybe you have forgotten who you are debating with. Has it been that long since you took an absence from me? There is nothing you can produce that I would shy away from. You simply don't like that whatever you have in picture form, I have seen in reality in four different countries and therefore are unaffected. The Corps may be perfect at dealing death, but even the Corps is mistake free.



Iraq was not a threat. [/QUOTE]

Obtuse opinion.

It was not Bush's call to make.

You're right. That's why Congress gave him the green light. However, the Commander in Chief does not need permission from Congress to send in the Marines. Notice how the Iraq invasion was largely Marine intensive straight through from border to Tikrit while the Army's role was a little less intensive and placed on the left flank and in the North(try to keep up)? Ahhhhhh, the things you could learn from me if given a local audience, a chalkboard and a ruler to slap your hand with.

And I certainly don't give a rats a.s.s what you think of me. I'm in your face! And this is where I'm gonna stay until this war is over. So you might as well roll up your sleeves and get comfortable. This is going to be a long one. I might even enjoy this.

Are you sure? You seem to care a great deal. And referencing the few post before this one...I would say your frustrations with not being able to keep was evident. It's embarrassing, I know, but maybe you should go back to debating more simple things.

 

[MSgt]

Well yeah.
The main perpetrators

"Hayashi Ikuo
Prior to joining AUM, Hayashi was a senior medical doctor

Hirose Ken'ichi Holder of a postgraduate degree in Physics

Toyoda Tōru studied applied physics at Tokyo University's Science Department and graduated with honours.

Yokoyama Masato He was a graduate in applied physics from Tokai University's Engineering Department.

Hayashi Yasuo He studied artificial intelligence at Kogakuin University."

Terrorists dont necessarily have to be stupid. Well indoctrinated and committed is all it takes.

No, but don't you see.....he was a doctor!:roll:

 

[MSgt]

What's pathetic is you think there is nothing wrong with bombing their neighborhoods.

It's not a matter of "wrong." Of course it is morally "wrong." However, we love in a world called reality where "necessity" sometimes trumps "wrong." Tactically, it is not "wrong" if they are harboring the enemy. The responsibility is theirs. They are warned. We are dealing with militant criminals that hide within a sea of Radical zealots. Tough times calls for tough actions...not squemish sentiments.

You've spent so much time on the Middle East that you have forgotton what it means to be an American. Which is we defend democracy and the rule of law. Do you what a law is? I doubt it. In fact, you couldn't spell "Law" if I spotted you the "L" and the "A!"

:roll: More Billo tactics. Ain't he cute people? Poor guy. Frustration is a powerful thing. By the way...I believe "America" has sent me to Somalia once, Chad once, Haiti once, and Iraq twice. Don't you just hate Marines that follow orders and study their enemies? How thoroughly un-American of me. Last I checked, I defend democracy and deploy to protect and build democracy (among other things) in other countries. What is this "we" you speak of? Oh...you meant our nation.

I posted the proof and you provided nothing in return.

Hmmmm. You post statements from mostly liars looking for sympathy for imagined "glory" (whatever that is) and parade around isolated occurrences like Abu Ghraib and "murderous" Marines and you call it "proof." Then you go on to tell us about how we have slaughtered 100,000 Iraqis, but then you said 50,000 and then finally succumbing to 30,000 after all of the anti-war propoganda sites figured out that lies and exxagerations do not help their cause. Furthermore, you use the isolated events to paint a picture of an entire military and it's "genocidal" and "torturous" ways. I guess this would be your sense of proof.

I reply with real world facts, real world intel and real world experience to explain the isolated events, the acts of war and the environment of this civilization. I guess to the obtuse and anger driven...this is "nothing." Oh well, at least you have your Sunni Doctors and Radical prisoners to tell you the truth.

Everything you have posted shows you are very well versed on the Middle East.

But I thought that was "nothing?"

But nothing you have posted justifies attacking a nation that did not attack us first.

Obtuse opinion, but it is a free country (I assure that). Enjoy it.

Article 51 of the UN Charter is one of our laws. And you can shoot your war-mongering, Muslim hating bullshit all you want, but it doesn't take from the fact that we are a nation of laws. We broke one by invading.

Here we go again people. The frustrations of a simpleton. Once again, all that have read the thousands of posts I have typed or any of my commentaries, know I am too knowledgable to Islam and Radical Islam to "hate Muslims." Don't you have a more grounded tactic than this? :roll:

I want an investigation into why we targeted a hospital.

Check it out. I called it people. The circle continues. Asked and answered. Asked and answered. Asked and answered. At htis point, I believe we can assume that you are not interested in any kind of an answer. You simply wish to use it to grandstand. Sad.

I'm not going to support troops like that. I'm not going to support lawlessness by the military. Obey the law!

I'm aware.......

Thread: Bush Approves use of Torture

Post # 597….

OK soldier boy, just so there is no confusion, let's make no mistake about this, I DO NOT SUPPORT THE TROOPS IN IRAQ!
http://www.debatepolitics.com/showpost.php?p=114229&postcount=597

Oops! You didn't think I hung on to such traitorous comments did you?

You've shown your very intelligent. But your problem is that you haven't found a way to turn that into wisdom. Just fanantism.

You mistake your "wisdom" for you dreams and fantasies. Wisdom is experiencing life and studying the task at hand in order to stay focused on doing the correct thing. "Wisdom" is not standing back from safe distances and pointing down on those that defend you and criticize their every movement. "Wisdom" is not flip flopping on subjects as your emotions change depending on the particular areticle you are reading. "Wisdom" is not whining about what is "right" and "wrong" from the comforts of your couch and color TV. And finally, "wisdom" is not staring at reality and watching other men face it while living in a fantasy of what you want reality to be.

 

[MSgt]

Don't think so.

November 7 2002: by unanimously adopting Resolution 1441, which found Iraq in "material breach" of prior resolutions, the UN set up a new inspections regime, and warned once again of "serious consequences" if Iraq again failed to disarm.

Source.

And there is 1154, from March 2, 1998: Iraq commits to fully comply with weapons inspections. Which was followed by 1194 on September 9, 1998, which condemned the Iraq decision to suspend cooperation with UNSCOM and the IAEA.

Not to mention the various 'Oil-for-Food' resolutions that Saddam was using to game the UN.

You can see all the resolutions here.

"Oh those Resolutions. I don't want to talk about those Resolutions. I want to talk about these Resolutions."

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by GySgt:
It's not a matter of "wrong." Of course it is morally "wrong." However, we love in a world called reality where "necessity" sometimes trumps "wrong." Tactically, it is not "wrong" if they are harboring the enemy. The responsibility is theirs. They are warned. We are dealing with militant criminals that hide within a sea of Radical zealots. Tough times calls for tough actions...not squemish sentiments.

It's the magnitude of the event that I cannot come to terms with. That's a city of 300,000 people. There were less than 1200 insurgents. We are obligated by International Law to take all necessary means to protect innocent civilians. Holding 298,800 people responsible for that 1200 or so seems a little extreme, to put it mildly.

 

[oldreliable67]

Holding 298,800 people responsible for that 1200 or so seems a little extreme, to put it mildly.

You are being disingenious with that comment. I know that you have participated in another thread in which we discussed the fact that the residents of Fallujah were given ample opportunity to evacuate prior to our incursion. Many thousands of them did so. Estimates place the population remaining at the time of our incursion in the 125,000 to 150,000 neighborhood.

Further, to assert that anyone is/was holding the entire population of Fallujah responsible for only 1,200 is completely fatuous. We have no idea how many were forced to remain and give shelter to the fighters through threat of death to familiy members as opposed to how many did so freely and willingly.

I will grant you that if you absolutely must place it on some kind of strange scale, 1,200 or so terrorists versus even 125,000 residents would sound way out of proportion. We have no way of knowing, but I have to suspect that there were many, many more fighters that managed to slip away and avoid injury or death by fighting with us. We do know, though, that some doctors came forward and related how they were forced to treat wounded fighters but describe them and present them to the al Jazeera as 'civilians'. Will post a link to that interview if I can find it again.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by GySgt:
Here we go again people. The frustrations of a simpleton. Once again, all that have read the thousands of posts I have typed or any of my commentaries, know I am too knowledgable to Islam and Radical Islam to "hate Muslims." Don't you have a more grounded tactic than this?

It's a little strange to read this after you make statements like this:

Originally posted by GySgt:
No....you are talking about Iraq. This would be your problem. You are focused on one country while the Muslim world is focused on defending their religion and sects. We do not face nations within the Muslim world. We are not facing countries that have had their borders drawn on the map by European colonies. We face a civilization. We are facing a religious people that exist within sects and tribes. We are facing Sunni from Saudi, Iraq, and Syria. We are facing Persians from Iran. We are facing Palestinians from "Palestine." While you sit and stew on "Iraq" the proffessionals and the Muslim world see it different. The Muslim world could care less about "Iraq." They are defending their religion and their world. We face a civilization of millions of Radical spread throughout the Middle East. You might as well erase all border lines. They do not fight for "country" or banner. They fight for their God.

An entire civilization? That's a pretty racist statement.

You still don't address the issue that we attacked illegally. These are our laws we agreed to live by. If Hussein attacked us, it would be a different story. But he didn't. And there is nothing in the law that allows for a regime change.

Article 33
The parties to any dispute, the continuance of which is likely to endanger the maintenance of international peace and security, shall, first of all, seek a solution by negotiation, enquiry, mediation, conciliation, arbitration, judicial settlement, resort to regional agencies or arrangements, or other peaceful means of their own choice.

The Security Council shall, when it deems necessary, call upon the parties to settle their dispute by such means.

http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/chapter6.htm

Article 51
Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security.

http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/chapter7.htm

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by GySgt:
You post statements from mostly liars looking for sympathy for imagined "glory"

Here's the list that you have made reference too:

• Iraq Veteran's Against War
• Veteran's For Peace
• Amnesty International
• Physician's For Human Rights
• Human Rights Watch
• ICRC
• United Nations
• Former Detainees at GITMO and Abu Grhaib
• Azzaman in English
• All major news outlets and organizations
• Activist Reader

So your saying these are all liars looking for sympathy for imagined "glory?" How is it you know this for a fact?

If you wanted to know what happened at Woodstock. Who's the best person to ask? A guy who saw the movie, or a guy who was at the concert? If you want to find out what is happening in Iraq, you ask an Iraqi. Because after five years of lies by the Bush Administration, I don't trust anything he says anymore. Not without corroborative evidence. I'm seeing pictures of destroyed buildings and city's and your telling me I'm just imagining it. That doesn't wash. And I don't want to believe it. But your not giving me any choice in the matter by attacking me as a response to inquiry's. I need you to address the assertations directly. Not pontificate about what is and what should never be.

 

[teacher]

An entire civilization? That's a pretty racist statement.

Quit playing the troll.

You still don't address the issue that we attacked illegally.

Devils advocate. Tell it to the women holding their ink stained fingers high.

These are our laws we agreed to live by. If Hussein attacked us, it would be a different story. But he didn't. And there is nothing in the law that allows for a regime change.

So let us dwell within our borders while towers fall.

Fuc*k you and your laws Billo. Laws, and times, change. It's big picture time Billo, as you well know. Nice of you to play your role. You play it well. This is for you:

If we had did nothing:

Mushroom clouds are coming.

If we do what we now do:

Mushroom clouds are coming.

Just a little less likely.

Friggin Billo, why do you try so hard? Simple questions. That's all it ever takes. Now is when you bow down to the intellect that is me. Gunny is too smart for his own good, he just doesn't ask the right questions. Friggin Billo. Simple.

Let's go back, shall we? 9/11. If they had nukes instead of planes, would they have used them? You are on record with this one, don't bother. Yes.

Little aside here Billo. Arguing this is moot. I know, you know, maybe some here know, you play devils advocate. They want to kill us Billo. They want to end our freedom and make you bow towards Meca. Five times a day. Wether you like it or not. Something here you don't understand? So we have this little difficulty. The difference between making the stupid unwashed massed realize that this is the truth, the right wing cult using this situation to gain control in their particular holy war, the left wing sheep that feel if we can just all get along it will all go away, is all academic. These stupid Arabs want to kill us, subjugate us, rule us, and they will stop at nothing to do this. You bastard, you know this, why do you play these partisan political games?

Quit playing the troll.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally posted by teacher:
So let us dwell within our borders while towers fall.

Fuc*k you and your laws Billo. Laws, and times, change. It's big picture time Billo, as you well know. Nice of you to play your role. You play it well. This is for you:

If we had did nothing:

Mushroom clouds are coming.

If we do what we now do:

Mushroom clouds are coming.

Just a little less likely.

Friggin Billo, why do you try so hard? Simple questions. That's all it ever takes. Now is when you bow down to the intellect that is me. Gunny is too smart for his own good, he just doesn't ask the right questions. Friggin Billo. Simple.

Let's go back, shall we? 9/11. If they had nukes instead of planes, would they have used them? You are on record with this one, don't bother. Yes.

Little aside here Billo. Arguing this is moot. I know, you know, maybe some here know, you play devils advocate. They want to kill us Billo. They want to end our freedom and make you bow towards Meca. Five times a day. Wether you like it or not. Something here you don't understand? So we have this little difficulty. The difference between making the stupid unwashed massed realize that this is the truth, the right wing cult using this situation to gain control in their particular holy war, the left wing sheep that feel if we can just all get along it will all go away, is all academic. These stupid Arabs want to kill us, subjugate us, rule us, and they will stop at nothing to do this. You bastard, you know this, why do you play these partisan political games?

Quit playing the troll.

Iraq was not a threat and had nothing to do with the towers falling. I don't know about you and Gunny, but I don't live my life in fear. If I am threatened, I deal with it at that time. If I am not threatened, I say live and let live. Your trashing this country. We once were the beacon of democracy, now were a joke. The Adminstration made them out to be some big mushroom cloud threat, well they weren't. Nothing that has been said about them as a threat has come true. Until you find WMD's, I'd suggest you take needle-point. Only lunatics still push this topic. Find them, I'll admit I'm wrong.

Gunny expects me to think he's right and the rest of the entire world is wrong. If he had proof of what he is saying, it would be a different story. But he doesn't provide any. It's just, "Oh well, their liars". Right. I don't know if they are or aren't. But it's obvious he doesn't give a rats a.s.s about them. Neither do you. Neither do I for that matter. But if he's going to get all pissed off because I even bring the subject up, then it does matter. Because to me, that's passive censorship. And I got a big problem with people that try to shut me up just because they don't like what they here.

You want to free the women, but you don't say anything when we destroy the houses that they live in. We destroyed a city the size of Long Beach for less than one tenth of one percent of their population. And Gunny says we are an imagined enemy.

I'm sorry, this is an immoral war. And there are too many reports from too many different and unrelated sources for these things to be false. If they are, prove it, and I will shut up. And I hope someone can. Because I don't like reading that we tortured a 15 year old in front of his father at Abu Grhaib. How people can just dismiss this as bullshit without even looking into it is beyond me. And proof is not "Hey man, we don't do that kind of thing". Yes we do. We practice renditions. We redefined torture just so we could. We round up people and hold them indefinately without charges. We deny people due process of law. This is not what we are about. This is not America.

Don't talk to me about my laws. They are not my laws. They are our laws. You got a problem obeying the law? You think it is right to take out your aggressions on someone that had nothing to do with your tragedy? You think it is OK to scapegoat? You think it is right to blame an entire civilization because they are different than yours? They have nuts and we have nuts. The only thing that separates us from them is the laws of our land. If we don't follow them, then we are no better than they are. There's no difference.

But this American arrogance and intolerance has got to stop. We are going down the wrong road. Your preaching hate. Gunny is preaching hate. I'm not saying appease any terrorist. But you don't treat every muslim as a terrorist. You don't hold the entire civilization responsible for the psychotic deeds of a few. That is just wrong.

That's what the Nazis did. And now history might be repeating. How do you think Hitler did it? Kill 6 million jews and no one says anything. They refused to believe it until Eisenhower made them bury their dead. Now all you people think I'm nuts saying that we are possible committing atrocities in Iraq. You refuse to believe it. But none of you will do the work to find out. And unless you do, I'm not going to drop this issue.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally Posted by GySgt
No need to go back. I'll pull it forward to expose your simpleton tactics....
In Post#31 I replied to your post.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billo_Really
If what your saying has any salt at all, then by taking us out of the equation as aggressors, they would continue their terrorist ways. But I don't think they would. I think, all they want, is for us to stop bombing their neighborhoods.

Originally Posted by GySgt
If you subscribe to this rediculous notion that they will stop this Radical movement simply "if we stop bombing their neighborhoods" is pathetic.

Would you like people who kept bombing your neighborhood?

Originally Posted by GySgt
Then in Post #41 I replied to your post where you pathetically tried to back up your assertions that "if we removed ourselves from the equation as agressors and stopped bombing their neighborhoods then their terrorist ways would stop." I replied to your words....

What's pathetic about the notion that if we stop enabling their hatred, incidents of terror might go down? What's pathetic is you thinking that we are reducing terrorism with our troops on foreign soil and our bombs in their neighborhoods. What's even more pathetic is you not being able to see the difference between terrorists in Iraq and Iraqi citizens.

Originally Posted by Billo_Really
If we don't bomb their neighborhoods,
why are a bunch of them living here... [in which I provide a picture of a tent city in the middle of the desert from all the people we were displacing due to our indescriminate use of ordinance]

with....

Originally Posted by GySgt
Bull shiit. We do not "bomb" their neighborhoods. [you say this even after I provided pictures of their bombed neighborhood. Instead of saying, "Oh, we don't do that" why don't you post a picture of that neighborhood still standing]

What neighborhoods in Iran do we bomb? What neighborhoods in Saudi Arabia do we bomb? What neighborhoods in Syria do we bomb? [I don't know what this has to do with our conversation]

Before trouble wih Saddam, what neighborhoods in Iraq did we bomb? It's this ignorant sentiment based on lies and deceit that gives these people ammo against their imagined enemy. Keep in mind that the Muslim Brotherhood was created in 1929 and Radical Islam was a movement long before Iraq. So, to sum up your reply and to use a comparison.....the japanese attacked Pearl Harbor because we dropped a couple nukes on their soil.

What is with this dis-jointed logic? What trouble did WE [the US] have with Saddam? Other than him cooperating with UN inspectors at the time we attacked. And why do you think they are lies and deceit? What evidence do you have to offer that proves your assertion? Talk about character assassination without the facts to back it up. Who's getting emotional now?

Originally Posted by GySgt
Then in Post #48 you replied with....

Originally Posted by Billo_Really
I didn't say "...they would cease to hate us...". Go back and re-read what I said. Because apparantly you weren't listening. You do that a lot.

Which brings us to now.....I fail to see anywhere where I said you said, "they would cease to hate us." What I accused you of saying is exactly what you said,

Originally Posted by Billo_Really
"If what your saying has any salt at all, then by taking us out of the equation as aggressors, they would continue their terrorist ways. But I don't think they would. I think, all they want, is for us to stop bombing their neighborhoods."

and then I went in to ask you about the neihborhoods of the Middle East and this fantasy neighborhood bombings that created Islamic terrorism. I think it's you that once again tripped over your own emotions and feelings as you sacrificed logic.

This is what you want me to think. This is about you, not me. I never said that we "created" Islamic terrorism by bombing there neighborhoods. I making the point that we need to stop bombing their neighborhoods. I am also making the point that because we are, we can't expect them not to hate the west. What's really weird is that after I posted pictures of that bombed neighborhood, you still say it was a "fantasy." That's downright strange.

 

[Billo_Really]

Originally Posted by GySgt
I believe I've written the most elequent pieces regarding Islam, Radical Islam, the Middle East and what is and is not our enemy. Your sophomoric accusations that "I want to rid the earth of Muslims" in the face of written proof post after post is yet another emotional outburst of frustrations. Same old Billo.

You do write eloquent pieces regarding Islam. And you know much more about the ME than I do. You just blow it when you start talking in terms of their entire civilization being wrong. Who the hell are you to judge another culture?

Originally Posted by Billo_Really
You hate so much, that you cannot even conceive of how wrong it is to destroy a city of 300,000 residents just to get to one tenth of one percent of the people there.

Originally Posted by GySgt
Was it one tenth of one percent of the people? Is that the anti-war fantasy now? How's that dead count in Iraq? Are we still at 30,000 or did it go back to 100,000 or 50,000 again? Your futile attempts at accuracy continues to embarrass you.

Thank you for proving what I just said. If you had any notion that it was wrong, you would have addressed the point I was making instead of getting sarcastic (and also what you think is witty). Stop bringing up the dead count like you know I was wrong. Were not counting them, so you don't know either. This is another point where your logic is flawed. You tell me I'm wrong with the number of dead Iraqis as if you knew the right answer. And you don't. The military has already publically stated they don't count Iraqi dead. You want to talk about deceit? How about trying to make everybody think I'm nuts on the amount of dead when you don't know anymore than I do. Or how about your deceitful inference to the anti-war demonstration on Washington last year. Your calling 400,000 people a fantasy. Maybe in your mind it is. That's fine with me if you want to think that. But don't treat me like I'm the one who's nuts because you can't prove your accuracy is any better.

Originally Posted by Billo_Really
You just keep on trying to justify genocide.

Originally Posted by GySgt
Genocide? Define genocide. Here, your desperation hinders you. I'll do it for you...."The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group." I've yet to see this, but I'm sure there is a Sunni doctor somewhere that can feed you what you need to believe.

You don't see it because you refuse to look. Or you spend too much time in your fantasy neighborhood. And you don't see it because you haven't demonstrated the ability to tell the difference between an Iraqi citizen and a terrorist insurgent. I guess they all look alike to you.

Originally Posted by Billo_Really
Instead spending so much time on your ad hominum attacks on me or my sources, why don't you prove them wrong with factual evidence.

Originally Posted by GySgt
Hominum attacks? Read above. Prove them right with factual evidence.
[I don't know what you consider factual evidence when I provide a picture of a bombed neighborhood and you say I'm imagining it. Sorry I didn't use a reader pre-approved source. That's a little too Orwellian for me]
Despite your moaning on what you think is right or wrong, reality claims neither. You can whine all day about everything you despise that occurs in a war that you don't agree with as opposed to a war you do agree with, but at the end of the day, you know nothing about anything that pertains to this subject.

I know my idea of reality is more mentally healthful. At least I leave the benefit of the doubt that I could be wrong. You got so much invested in being an authority that you can't even deal with the possibility of being wrong.

Originally Posted by GySgt
Seems to me that many people enjoy my blunt face of reality and my willingness to accept it in the face of dreamers, liars, and exxagerators that whine about what should be as opposed to the way it is.

There's that "deceit card" being played again with your back-handed comment about "...dreamers, liars, and exxagerators...". Prove it or lose it.

Originally Posted by GySgt
Wow. You used to be better at this. You've tripped all over yourself all through this thread. Maybe you should have stayed on vacation from me.

And "what a long strange trip it's been." Your not my vacation, your my Disneyland.

 

[MSgt]

It's the magnitude of the event that I cannot come to terms with. That's a city of 300,000 people. There were less than 1200 insurgents. We are obligated by International Law to take all necessary means to protect innocent civilians. Holding 298,800 people responsible for that 1200 or so seems a little extreme, to put it mildly.

1200 (Another tossed around number) insurgents surrounded by a sea of thousands of Radicals.

 

[MSgt]

It's a little strange to read this after you make statements like this:

An entire civilization? That's a pretty racist statement.

Your pathetic PC definitions of what you consider "racist" must bind you from a lot of expression. There is nothing racist about it....dipshiit.:roll: (Oops..did I type that?) By declaring thet "we face an entire civilization" means that we are facing a culture that adheres to passed down traditions that do not work in the progressive 21st century. We are clashing. I have stated before that our fight is with the few (terrorist and the "Sea of Radicals" they hide within), but our struggle is with the many. Where is the racism? Perhaps this type of intellect is above you? Usually, when this is the case, words like "racism," "soveriegnty" and "warmonger" are the words spewed out.

You still don't address the issue that we attacked illegally. These are our laws we agreed to live by. If Hussein attacked us, it would be a different story. But he didn't. And there is nothing in the law that allows for a regime change.

All of your issues have been addressed time and again by me and everyone else by providing a multiple of diversity. Simply throwing out the same issue evry so often and accusing people of "not addressing" it does not make it a new issue.

With regards to any "illegality"....I do not care. I believe in necessity and apparantly so did the "American" people that you declare do not start wars.

Your hypocrisy and selective moral high ground is obvious. You said it yourself. "It would be a different story if Hussein directly attacked us." This means that any civillians that have died in Afghanistan is perfectly OK to you. I notice how you consistently bash any affects that come from war in Iraq while completely disregarding what is going on in Afghanistan. You merely disagree with the war in Iraq and are willing to jump on any bandwagon or lunge at any desperate item to cast shadows. So much for your moral high ground.