The USA Wants This War... So It Can Drive Russia Back to The Stone Age

[jnug]

They are committed to the demilitarisation of Ukraine, that means destroying as much of the military as is possible to diminish the threat its relationship with NATO poses to Russia.

I don't agree with Putins war and would like to have seen him take a very different approach to undermine the threat but you cannot dispute the threat Ukriane/NATO military alliances/exercises/arming/training/base building posed to the Russian state.

I'll put it another way, the Russian concerns are at least credible, your own illegal war and slaughter of Iraqis/ Afghans, Syrians, Libyans, Serbs etc etc were not

Putin's rationalizations for attacking are just that rationalizations. Putin is fighting a war of conquest, with a little concern for the PR consequence of the possibility of having a large successful democracy that was once part of the Soviet Union on his border. If it was not was not immediately obvious the Putin's rationalizations were all BULLSHIT the moment Putin's garbage left his lips, its is certainly obvious by now:

- NATO is a defensive treaty alliance and Putin knows it. Putin does not want Ukraine to join NATO because it would make it more difficult for him to conquer it.
- concern for ethic Russians in Ukraine. If you count Putin's own military losses he is killing as many if not more ethnic Russians that he is Ukrainians!
- Denazification .....GIVE ME A BREAK
- attacking in order to defend???? Give me a break on that one too

This is simply a war of conquest being waged by Putin who thought he would have a walkover and have control of Ukraine's assets and treasure which he would have funneled back to Russia with the Ukrainians themselves being nothing more than serfs if he had his way.

 

[oneworld2]

Finland may join NATO, and right now there are talks of Ukraine not joining NATO but being part of a security agreement that effectively gives them NATO protection (NATO in all but name). And of course Russia is a global pariah and is now recognized as committing war crimes.

So…yeah…hats off to Putin. A round of applause.

The Ukrainians were albut in NATO anyway, a defacto member that were arming/training/basebuilding withNATO forces

The war has been great for the US, you should be doing cartwheels as the Ukrainians are dying in droves in their usefulness an a disposable implement in US foreign policy.

The aggressive NATO expansion was sure to cause a war at some point and that war sees others spooked into shedding their wish to be neutral.

US oil is doing deals for European markets.

US arms dealesr are struggling to keep up with demand as everyone shits themselves and arms up

The whole world is against one of your rivals

Why would you want that to stop?

 

[Elmo]

All the Ukrainian govts since have been corrupt, so it's not like only the Yanukovych govt was.

Zelensky was voted in on a peace ticket but was steered away from it by the far right

Zelensky is as corrupt as the others have been

Ukraine's government certainly has it's flaws, but it is vastly better than Putin's Russia. He's an authoritarian dictator with a habit of murdering his opposition. He has zero respect for the rights of his citizens, and has been disappearing thousands of protesters since this invasion began. He is responsible for massacres of innocents and multiple unprovoked invasions of his neighbors. It is pathetic that you whine about Zelensky's so-called "corruption" when the alternative is Putin.

Ukraine was becoming a defacto NATO member

Ukraine was never anywhere close to being a NATO member. Literally decades away, if ever. They certainly weren't defacto. And Putin knows it. That is just a particularly weak excuse to try to justify his atrocities. Stop spreading his lies.

 

[Roadvirus]

If Russia wanted this war to no longer be prolonged, they could end it immediately. All they have to do is retreat.

Unfortunately, Putzin has invested his ego in this thing. Which means he won't quit until he can declare victory.

 

[jnug]

Of course there is and it's obvious you just don't want to listen to it. And you don't have to either. But calling people " parrots" etc just because they have bothered to listen to more sides than yourself is ridiculous imo

Putin's side is not an argument. It's propaganda.

Yes, there is what is happening including what Russia is saying. The fact remains that Ukraine is/was becoming a defacto NATO state, a distinction without a difference. That's a serious threat to Russian national security.

There is NATO and there is non-NATO. There is no "de facto NATO"

If the Russians were setting up missile bases in Mexico and your own concerns were ignored you would be pulling your hair out

Those missile bases in Europe are US Missile bases. The bases themselves are leased and what does that have to do with Ukraine. Those bases have been there for decades.

I will wager vastly more people, innocent people, were killed in your own illegal attack on Iraq than have been killed in this conflict so far. Where is your commitment to see Bush in jail for ther crimes visited upon those people.Or the people of Yemen that have been cluster bombed by the KSA off the back of US intel support etc ?

I won't make excuses for Bush 43 and Iraq2. Iraq2 was a horrible mistake that the US has paid for in spades. Yemen is actually a proxy war. We have made more mistakes with regard to Iran which is more than a little involved in Yemen than I can count all the way from the 1950's till today. That does not justify Putin engaging in a war of conquest in Ukraine.

 

[oneworld2]

Putin's rationalizations for attacking are just that rationalizations. Putin is fighting a war of conquest, with a little concern for the PR consequence of the possibility of having a large successful democracy that was once part of the Soviet Union on his border. If it was not was not immediately obvious the Putin's rationalizations were all BULLSHIT the moment Putin's garbage left his lips, its is certainly obvious by now:

I will bet you Putin has no intention of " conquering" Ukraine and will want out as soon as he believes the Ukrainian military is sufficiently defanged

- NATO is a defensive treaty alliance and Putin knows it. Putin does not want Ukraine to join NATO because it would make it more difficult for him to conquer it.

Oh please. NATO and NATO member states have dwarfed illegal acts of aggression since Putin took charge in Russia. If you seriously believe that NATO and its members have only behaved defensively you haven't been paying attention for the last 25 years

- concern for ethic Russians in Ukraine. If you count Putin's own military losses he is killing as many if not more ethnic Russians that he is Ukrainians!

I don't buy it and never stated it as a reason

- Denazification .....GIVE ME A BREAK

An obvious reference to the neo Nazi far rigth in Ukraine that have fought with the Ukrainian army in the past and threatened the government, including Zelensky, if he ever honoured his pledge to bring peace to Donbas by peaceful means. So yeah, you might not agree with it but the claim is not made up out of thin air.

- attacking in order to defend???? Give me a break on that one too

Yep, happens all the time and has a long history

This is simply a war of conquest being waged by Putin who thought he would have a walkover and have control of Ukraine's assets and treasure which he would have funneled back to Russia with the Ukrainians themselves being nothing more than serfs if he had his way.

If he wanted to conquer Ukraine he wouldn't have used such a small army and tactics he has used.]

Nobody wins the state in such a way, you spent nearly 2 decades in Afghanistan and Iraq and never won. Putin knows this

 

[oneworld2]

Ukraine's government certainly has it's flaws, but it is vastly better than Putin's Russia. He's an authoritarian dictator with a habit of murdering his opposition. He has zero respect for the rights of his citizens, and has been disappearing thousands of protesters since this invasion began. He is responsible for massacres of innocents and multiple unprovoked invasions of his neighbors. It is pathetic that you whine about Zelensky's so-called "corruption" when the alternative is Putin.


Ukraine was never anywhere close to being a NATO member. Literally decades away, if ever. They certainly weren't defacto. And Putin knows it. That is just a particularly weak excuse to try to justify his atrocities. Stop spreading his lies.

The comments I made were about Ukrainian politics only. I am aware of the authoritarianism in Russia so you are preaching to the already converted

Ukraine was a NATO state in all but name. I suspect you won't read this but something to consider and it doesn't even come close to making a strong case

https://www.cato.org/commentary/making-ukraine-nato-member-all-name#

 

[Roadvirus]

Unfortunately, warmongers holed up in Washington DC want to play God, and pursue rampant unrestrained triumphalism that can only revive the Cold War, which will be to the detriment of all.

PETER HITCHENS: USA wants war to drive Russia back to the Stone Age

PETER HITCHENS: This is not a war between Ukraine and Russia. It is a war between the USA and Russia, in which both sides are cynically using Ukraine as a battering ram.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Russia started this war....but the US and her allies are helping Ukraine end it.

 

[Questerr]

They are committed to the demilitarisation of Ukraine, that means destroying as much of the military as is possible to diminish the threat its relationship with NATO poses to Russia.

I don't agree with Putins war and would like to have seen him take a very different approach to undermine the threat but you cannot dispute the threat Ukriane/NATO military alliances/exercises/arming/training/base building posed to the Russian state.

I'll put it another way, the Russian concerns are at least credible, your own illegal war and slaughter of Iraqis/ Afghans, Syrians, Libyans, Serbs etc etc were not

Then they can go **** themselves. They’ve spent the last decade stealing Ukraine territory and arming separatists in its land.

Ukraine demilitarizes and there would be nothing stopping Russia from outright conquering them.

 

[oneworld2]

Putin's side is not an argument. It's propaganda.

There is NATO and there is non-NATO. There is no "de facto NATO"

Those missile bases in Europe are US Missile bases. The bases themselves are leased and what does that have to do with Ukraine. Those bases have been there for decades.

I won't make excuses for Bush 43 and Iraq2. Iraq2 was a horrible mistake that the US has paid for in spades. Yemen is actually a proxy war. We have made more mistakes with regard to Iran which is more than a little involved in Yemen than I can count all the way from the 1950's till today. That does not justify Putin engaging in a war of conquest in Ukraine.

First off look at how you have been conditioned to refer to the 2003 invasion of Iraq? A " mistake" ??

No , it was an illegal war of aggression that had no basis in law and was aimed at illegal regime change.

That you have " paid for in spades" ? The war cost hundreds of thousands of live, left millions displaced/refugees and wrecked the entire country !!

Wow, talk about thinking of yourselves!!

Ukraine could easily have had US controlled missile bases. It was in the 2022 US assessments for Ukrainian cooperation.

There is a defacto status, of course it's not official, it's not how things are done .

Read the link I gave the other guy and add in that the Britsd were planning building naval bases in Odessa

https://www.cato.org/commentary/making-ukraine-nato-member-all-name#

 

[jnug]

They are committed to the demilitarisation of Ukraine, that means destroying as much of the military as is possible to diminish the threat its relationship with NATO poses to Russia.

Putin is attempting to conquer Ukraine as a means to absorb, control and profit from its assets...something he has been trying to do by other means for decades.

I will bet you Putin has no intention of " conquering" Ukraine and will want out as soon as he believes the Ukrainian military is sufficiently defanged

Oh yea...Putin is going to get out after demilitarizing Ukraine. Ah-huh Tell me, given your take on NATO and US Missile bases in Europe how EXACTLY will demilitarizing Ukriane make Russia sufficiently safer to account for the loses to Russia in its standing in the world, its treasure lost and its lives lost in Ukraine? NATO will still exist. The Missile bases will still exist. Russia will be a world pariah which the world should have recognized decades ago.

Oh please. NATO and NATO member states have dwarfed illegal acts of aggression since Putin took charge in Russia. If you seriously believe that NATO and its members have only behaved defensively you haven't been paying attention for the last 25 years

You failed to point out a single one.

I don't buy it and never stated it as a reason

Then talk to your boy Putin. Its his rationalization

An obvious reference to the neo Nazi far rigth in Ukraine that have fought with the Ukrainian army in the past and threatened the government, including Zelensky, if he ever honoured his pledge to bring peace to Donbas by peaceful means. So yeah, you might not agree with it but the claim is not made up out of thin air.

Using denazification as a rationalization suggests nazism is widespread in Ukraine. I would suggest that it is not any more prevalent in Ukraine than it is anywhere else in the world. We in the US might have a bigger NAZI problem than Ukraine has. So sorry, that won't play.

Yep, happens all the time and has a long history

Again you have failed to point out a single one

If he wanted to conquer Ukraine he wouldn't have used such a small army and tactics he has used.]

Nobody wins the state in such a way, you spent nearly 2 decades in Afghanistan and Iraq and never won. Putin knows this

Russia's lack of military capability is a result of 22 years of absolute power by Putin and corruption on a grand scale. They should have been rolling over Ukraine with the assets they brought to bear if their equipment were not crap and their fighting spirit were better. This should have been a walkover for Russia.

 

[oneworld2]

Then they can go **** themselves. They’ve spent the last decade stealing Ukraine territory and arming separatists in its land.

Ukraine demilitarizes and there would be nothing stopping Russia from outright conquering them.

And the USA has been stirring up trouble in Europe and against Russia since the end of the USSR so, as a European, I wish the USA would go and **** itself and stop causing and engaging in illegal aggressions all over the globe.

Putin has to go a whole lot further in criminality to match your own record

 

[Cardinal]

The Ukrainians were albut in NATO anyway, a defacto member that were arming/training/basebuilding withNATO forces

Even if true, we see now that the problem is that they didn’t join a lot sooner. As you already know, Russia doesn’t attack NATO members.

The aggressive NATO expansion was sure to cause a war at some point and that war sees others spooked into shedding their wish to be neutral.

Russia has never attacked a member after they’ve joined NATO, so that’s unlikely in the extreme.

 

[Antiwar]

I think the parts of the article about the war are good. I looked up the author on Wikipedia and there's a lot that's not good:

Previously a socialist and supporter of the Labour Party, Hitchens became more conservative during the 1990s. He joined the Conservative Party in 1997 and left in 2003, and has since been deeply critical of the party, which he views as the biggest obstacle to true conservatism in the UK. Hitchens describes himself as a Burkean conservative, social democrat and Anglo-Gaullist. His conservative Christian political views, such as his opposition to same-sex marriage and support of stricter recreational drug policies, have been met with criticism and debate in the United Kingdom.

Peter Hitchens has criticised the UK's response to the COVID-19 pandemic, especially lockdowns and mandates that the public wear face masks. He has been accused of promoting misinformation about the pandemic and public health restrictions by several sources.

 

[Questerr]

And the USA has been stirring up trouble in Europe and against Russia since the end of the USSR so, as a European, I wish the USA would go and **** itself and stop causing and engaging in illegal aggressions all over the globe.

Putin has to go a whole lot further in criminality to match your own record

When the US starts invading and annexing countries’ territory, then we can talk.

 

[jnug]

First off look at how you have been conditioned to refer to the 2003 invasion of Iraq? A " mistake" ??

Yes it was a geopolitical mistake of epic proportions. I have called it the worst US geopolitical mistake of this century and it might just make it the rest of the century retaining that distinction.

No , it was an illegal war of aggression that had no basis in law and was aimed at illegal regime change.

War of aggression???? Aggression is not a war aim for anybody. Your keyboard got ahead of your brain.

That you have " paid for in spades" ? The war cost hundreds of thousands of live, left millions displaced/refugees and wrecked the entire country !!

Wow, talk about thinking of yourselves!!

See Saddam Hussain and his bullshit which included a costly war with Iran and a takeover in Kuwait. Likely 500,000 Iraqis were killed in the war Saddam started with Iran. 500,000 Irani were also likely killed. He likely killed another 50,000 Kurds. Saddam killed more of his own people than we ever thought of killing. Does not make our geopolitical MISTAKE any more right.

Ukraine could easily have had US controlled missile bases. It was in the 2022 US assessments for Ukrainian cooperation.

Show me!

There is a defacto status, of course it's not official, it's not how things are done .

Which means it does not exist. You are playing word games.

Read the link I gave the other guy and add in that the Britsd were planning building naval bases in Odessa

https://www.cato.org/commentary/making-ukraine-nato-member-all-name#

What link and since when is the US responsible for national security considerations made by any other NATO nation unilaterally. You and Vlad fail to consider that all NATO treaty members are first and foremost sovereign states.

If you mean your link to the CATO piece, I must admit its wonderful living in a country where even an IDIOTIC bunch like CATO has the freedom to say its piece. Russians should be so lucky.

 

[oneworld2]

I think the parts of the article about the war are good. I looked up the author on Wikipedia and there's a lot that's not good:

Previously a socialist and supporter of the Labour Party, Hitchens became more conservative during the 1990s. He joined the Conservative Party in 1997 and left in 2003, and has since been deeply critical of the party, which he views as the biggest obstacle to true conservatism in the UK. Hitchens describes himself as a Burkean conservative, social democrat and Anglo-Gaullist. His conservative Christian political views, such as his opposition to same-sex marriage and support of stricter recreational drug policies, have been met with criticism and debate in the United Kingdom.

Peter Hitchens has criticised the UK's response to the COVID-19 pandemic, especially lockdowns and mandates that the public wear face masks. He has been accused of promoting misinformation about the pandemic and public health restrictions by several sources.

I am no fan of Peter Hitchens on loads of stuff and preferred his brother, now deceased. But what he states about the war is accurate imo and conforms to what agreat deal of other commentators have said

 

[Antiwar]

I am no fan of Peter Hitchens on loads of stuff and preferred his brother, now deceased. But what he states about the war is accurate imo and conforms to what agreat deal of other commentators have said

I agree that it seems accurate. It's odd that some anti-war progressives and some conservatives see this similarly.

Most liberals (and even progressives) on DP are conservative to very conservative on this issue and militarism. Most of their ~analyses aren't in-depth, they're repeating the one-dimensional dominant narrative, and seem to have forgotten all about environmental concerns and much else.

I think much of it is because there's a Democratic president, which is another false binary.

 

[RaleBulgarian]

Not really. I consider the wreckless eastward expansion of NATO to the Russian border an aggression that poses a serious threat to the national security of the state itself. I believe that even if Putin not have been in power the Russians would have at some point had to take a military stand against the threat of NATO on their borders and the Russian people would have supported it.

Reckless, in your opinion, and Ukraine wasn’t even being considered for NATO membership. Easily, years from any consideration.

Putin’s illegal attack of a sovereign neighbor nation, and heinous woundings/murders of thousands of innocent Ukrainians warrants all of the condemnation and sanctions being placed on him and those that support him.

 

[poweRob]

Unfortunately, warmongers holed up in Washington DC want to play God, and pursue rampant unrestrained triumphalism that can only revive the Cold War, which will be to the detriment of all.

PETER HITCHENS: USA wants war to drive Russia back to the Stone Age

PETER HITCHENS: This is not a war between Ukraine and Russia. It is a war between the USA and Russia, in which both sides are cynically using Ukraine as a battering ram.

www.dailymail.co.uk

USA isn't in a war.
Russia invaded its neighbor.

In sanman's mind, USA is the warmonger here.

 

[poweRob]

Unfortunately, warmongers holed up in Washington DC want to play God, and pursue rampant unrestrained triumphalism that can only revive the Cold War, which will be to the detriment of all.

PETER HITCHENS: USA wants war to drive Russia back to the Stone Age

PETER HITCHENS: This is not a war between Ukraine and Russia. It is a war between the USA and Russia, in which both sides are cynically using Ukraine as a battering ram.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[watsup]

Because they are NATO members and he definitely doesn't want a war with NATO





It's pretty much pointless to stop it now before the aims are met. They are committed to it until such times as they feel the threat has been diminished.

More and more and more lies.

 

[watsup]

You only know one side of the story because you ONLY want to know one side of the story. Some counterfacts to the above

Yanuvovych delayed signing up to the new EU deal because the Russians were offering a better one with less strings attached to it.

The popular protests were piggy backed by the far right Ukrainian nationalists in order to initiate a coup

Yanukovych fled because it was obvious that they didn't/wouldn't accept his offers of a deal to resolve the conflict regardin Maidan.

The US diplomats Nuland and Pyat were caught selecting who should head the new coupster govt

All the Ukrainian govts since have been corrupt, so it's not like only the Yanukovych govt was.

Zelensky was voted in on a peace ticket but was steered away from it by the far right

Zelensky is as corrupt as the others have been

Ukraine was becoming a defacto NATO member

More lies.

 

[watsup]

They are committed to the demilitarisation of Ukraine, that means destroying as much of the military as is possible to diminish the threat its relationship with NATO poses to Russia.

I don't agree with Putins war and would like to have seen him take a very different approach to undermine the threat but you cannot dispute the threat Ukriane/NATO military alliances/exercises/arming/training/base building posed to the Russian state.

I'll put it another way, the Russian concerns are at least credible, your own illegal war and slaughter of Iraqis/ Afghans, Syrians, Libyans, Serbs etc etc were not

These are lies.

 

[watsup]

I agree that it seems accurate. It's odd that some anti-war progressives and some conservatives see this similarly.

Most liberals (and even progressives) on DP are conservative to very conservative on this issue and militarism. Most of their ~analyses aren't in-depth, they're repeating the one-dimensional dominant narrative, and seem to have forgotten all about environmental concerns and much else.

I think much of it is because there's a Democratic president, which is another false binary.

None of this is true.