The theoretical has become real - a Judge Advocate's perspective

[bongsaway]

It is not a diversion at all. It is why they were eliminated.
The cartel is responsible for more American deaths than anyone else. It isn't even close.
Going after them, militarily, is something that should have happened in the 1980s.

So you want America to be the world's police?

 

[NWRatCon]

Why do you guys keep repeating the open border lie?

(Because they like it. It's a way to be blatantly racist and not get dinged by the Moderators.)

 

[iamwhatiseem]

So you want America to be the world's police?

Yet another strawman.
No, I want the American government to protect Americans. On our soil or on someone else's. Doesn't matter.

 

[Irredentist]

I literally just told you the reasons.
But, like I say here all the time, your TDS is disabling you to hear any facts that do not blame Trump and/or MAGA.
The cartels LOVED Biden, this is not a biased statement. They pretty much had free reign in both the southern and northern borders because of his policies - a direct correlation.
Trump closed the borders. Now a good deal of the drugs are coming across Canada, and the Canadian government has been painfully slow in assisting and cooperating. Only in the last year did they start increasing serious funds and hiring additional agents.
The higher number of deaths this year is due to increased potency found in samples. The CDC warned 2024's death drop may be temporary - BEFORE Trump got in office.

Such silliness. The war on drugs is already over, and the drugs won. If people want to get high they will find a way, and all of your military showboating isn't going to make a damn bit of difference.

 

[bongsaway]

The solution is simple: Someone needs to have the balls (and the money) to file suit. Of course, they also have to have standing. How about you, NWRatCon? Do YOU have what it takes? It appears Tom Nichols doesn't. All he can do is rant in The Atlantic.

While all the bleeding heart liberals and all the Trump haters try to figure who's going to do it, Trump will continue to blow the shit out of terrorist, drug running cartel people...and the US will be better off for it.

I'm betting on the cartels.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Yet another strawman.
No, I want the American government to protect Americans. On our soil or on someone else's. Doesn't matter.

We should just invade Venezuela…

Then we can stop all the drug boats.

WW

 

[bongsaway]

Yet another strawman.
No, I want the American government to protect Americans. On our soil or on someone else's. Doesn't matter.

So you do want America to be the world's police. On our soil or someone else's. Should we also invade Russia?

 

[bongsaway]

Nope - the
The CDC attributes the 2024 decline due to fentanyl drug samples nationwide were much weaker than the previous 2 years.
Samples taken in early 2025, showed a troubling new rise in potency - and early numbers of deaths is not looking good. Death numbers so far in 2025 is outpacing 2024. Nowhere near 2023, but trending upward. Trump said this a few months ago - and this is why this is happening now.
It is obviously not going to make an impact as these boats represent a tiny amount of illicit drugs coming in. It is a show of force of what is likely to come. You can bank on it. Trump is going to go after the cartel in Mexico and Central America militarily. It is going to happen. So get your outrage tears for the murderers ready.

You guys don't get to use the CDC for evidence. Remember it's a quack organization, ask RFK.

 

[multivita-man]

I literally just told you the reasons.

No, you're selectively making arguments that fit the narrative in your mind. You went from citing plain numbers to qualifying the numbers that don't reflect particularly well on the incoming administration's efforts to stem the tide of overdose deaths.

In short, more fact-free MAGA bullshit.

Not interested.

 

[NWRatCon]

Yep... The subject has been completely changed..

Actually, not. We can ignore the diversions and discuss the OP.

What we are faced with, today, is not unlike what was faced in WWII. Except, in this instance, it is our own government that is the villain. The Geneva Conventions and the Hague Conventions govern conduct of war - what I mentioned earlier as LoAC (Law of Armed Conflict). US law supports compliance, as does the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ), which is also US law. They also prohibit many of the activities the regime is engaged in.

LTG (Ret) Mark Hertling has made several appearances denouncing what occurred on Tuesday, and what the Trump regime has been doing.


This "administration" is governing in a blatantly illegal manner. This is policy, not error. As I noted, "illegal orders are already being issued and followed, and commanders are now facing a very real dilemma about how to lawfully and morally address them." This is the crux of our current moment and challenge. We are, collectively, responsible, and we, individually, need to examine our consciences. The military, like our government, represents us. That is a point I always made in my presentations. WE are AMERICA. What we do, and how we do it, matters. Our reputation and moral standing is on the line.

Listen, refusing to follow an illegal order is the most difficult situation any commander and any Soldier, Sailor, Marine or Guardsman has to face. It is the leadership's responsibility not to put them in that dilemma. It damages the service member. This regime is doing real, consequential, and permanent damage to our military by failing to follow the most basic requirement. "Doing the right thing" is the moral armor we take into the field every day. It is what keeps us sane and effective.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

We should just invade Venezuela…

Then we can stop all the drug boats.

WW

No reason to. Just use intelligence to see where any cartel strongholds are, and wipe them out without setting a foot on their soil.
We should absolutely do the same in Mexico. We ask for their help, tell them they do it or we do it - which they won't, so we drop bombs on their compounds and homes and that is that. Should have happened 40 years ago.
**** these corrupt governments. Near and over 100,000 Americans, mostly young, die from their drugs every year and we don't do anything???
Typical liberals.

 

[NWRatCon]

Another point I always made in training: "Compliance with the law of war is a force multiplier." I used as an example the surrender of Iraqi soldiers in both Gulf Wars. Hundreds of thousands of armed Iraqis surrendered to our forces rather than face us. Why? Because they knew that we would take better care of them as prisoners of war than their own country would as combatants. As I would say, "that's hundreds of thousands of Iraqis not shooting at you." Our reputation as honorable warriors precedes us and helps us win battles without even expending ordinance.

That has been true throughout American history - until now. (Really, until Abu Ghraib. But even then we held people accountable.)

 

[Risky Thicket]

Why do you continue to divert from and avoid the topic of this thread? Did you really think no one would notice?

Myopia prevents people from seeing the big picture. Willful ignorance prevents people from comprehending it.

Iamwhatiseem has no point to make.

 

[Isidore]

Under Biden and his opening of the borders - the number of overdoes deaths in America exploded. (30%)

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db522.htm

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

When Trump took office, one of the first actions he took was to fire all the Judge Advocates General of the military services. It was a troubling act, particularly for the reasons stated. At the time, Secretary Hegseth said: "the removals were necessary because he didn't want them to pose any 'roadblocks to orders that are given by a commander in chief.'" That begged the question, "what roadblocks?" It brought to mind the Shakespeare quote, "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers". What most people don't realize is the context. It was a conversation between the rebel leader Jack Cade and his henchman, Dick the Butcher, in scene 2 of Act IV of Henry IV, Part 2. The point being, eliminating lawyers removes a major impediment to the path to more power, and a step in the direction of a totalitarian form of government, since lawyers represent "the guardians of the rule of law".

In a recent piece for The Atlantic, Tom Nichols relayed the following anecdote:

"In 1973, an Air Force nuclear-missile officer named Harold Hering asked a simple question during a training session: “How can I know that an order I receive to launch my missiles came from a sane president?” The question cost him his career. Military members are trained to execute orders, not question them. But today, both the man who can order the use of nuclear arms and the man who would likely verify such an order gave disgraceful and unnerving performances in Quantico. How many officers left the room asking themselves Major Hering’s question?"

For the majority of my military career I served in the Judge Advocate General's Corps, United States Army. For more than a decade of that time I performed Operational Law tasks - advising commanders on legal issues, and teaching the Law of Armed Conflict (LoAC) to US troops - either in Operational Law sections or as part of my regular duties. All JAGs are trained in, and most have, operational law requirements as part of their duties, but most do so on an occasional (rare) or supplemental basis. In my case it was a major part of my job for over a third of my career. Major Hering's question was a theoretical one, posed in a training scenario. I have had to address that very question, or more generally, "How do I know that my orders are lawful?", regularly, posed to me, while conducting such training. Tom Nichols taught longer than I did. (In 1997, Nichols became professor of strategy at the U.S. Naval War College, a position he retained until 2008. Wikipedia).

Major Hering's question is no longer theoretical.

Over the last month, the US Navy (presumably) has conducted four strikes on speedboats in the Caribbean, assertedly killing 27 people (we only have video and claims from the Trump regime for evidence). To conduct those operations, the regime had to overcome the "roadblocks" of US and international legal standards. (That is a nice way of saying, "the actions are illegal".) In addition, Trump has ordered military troops into various US cities, supposedly to "assist" "law enforcement" activities, although the reality has (so far) been quite different. In his last term the Secretary of the Army and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff resisted such deployments. Such resisters have been systematically purged from the military ranks.

The problem facing military commanders at every level, now, is that Major Hering's question, and the "theoretical" questions I faced conducting LoAC training, are no longer theoretical. The Supreme Court has granted to the President immunity for issuing unlawful orders. His subordinates, from the Secretary of Defense on down, possess no such immunity, and in international courts, no such immunity exists for any of them. The disturbing display at Quantico made that issue crystal clear to the hundreds of senior leaders dragooned into attending. On some level, illegal orders are already being issued and followed, and commanders are now facing a very real dilemma about how to lawfully and morally address them. In the Caribbean, some have already failed that test.

Are you saying that we no longer HAVE ANY JaG's at all in the entire military?

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

View attachment 67592600
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db522.htm

Fentanyl ---
AI OVERVIEW

• Around 2013–2014: Illegally manufactured fentanyl (IMF) began to appear in the U.S. drug market, supplied largely by manufacturers in China.
• Chinese companies would sell fentanyl and its precursor chemicals online and ship them to the U.S. through the postal service or via Mexico.
• The DEA reported that a takedown of an illicit fentanyl lab in India in 2018 revealed a prior shift in production from China to India, potentially due to increasing pressure from Chinese authorities.

Shift in production to Mexico

• 2019: In an effort to curb the flow of fentanyl, China agreed to restrict the manufacture of fentanyl and all fentanyl-related substances.
• Following China's restrictions, production shifted to Mexico, where Mexican transnational criminal organizations (TCOs) began acquiring precursor chemicals from China to manufacture the finished product in clandestine labs.
• These Mexican TCOs, particularly the Sinaloa and Jalisco New Generation Cartel, then traffic the illicit fentanyl into the United States, primarily across the land border.

So foreign manufactured illicit Fentanyl wasn't even that serious an issue at all until around 2019.
And in any case, Trump did relatively nothing about it even in 2019, leaving the mess for Biden's administration to try to clean up.
Any reasonable person would admit that it would take at least two years to gather the necessary intelligence, formulate plans and sell the idea to Congress, however the graph also shows
that by 2023 Fentanyl smuggling had already begun a slow downward trend.

The actions of the Trump administration to combat illegal Fentanyl shipments would be considered reasonable if it was determined that current efforts to slow the advance of the drug weren't working. But the graph shows otherwise.
It's obvious that Trump is showboating for the rubes.
A reasonable administration would also not be hamstringing GUTTING both CDC and FDA, so that they could WORK WITH both the DEA and even the military if necessary.

 

[Tigerace117]

Under Biden and his opening of the borders - the number of overdoes deaths in America exploded. (30%)
And you are worried about 7 guys in a boat.

Lord.

The St. Valentine’s Day Massacre was seven dudes in a parking garbage.

 

[Tigerace117]

It is not a diversion at all. It is why they were eliminated.
The cartel is responsible for more American deaths than anyone else. It isn't even close.
Going after them, militarily, is something that should have happened in the 1980s.

The U.S. provided extensive military suppory to Colombia throughout the 1980s and 1990s.

The cartels didn’t go away.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

The U.S. provided extensive military suppory to Colombia throughout the 1980s and 1990s.

The cartels didn’t go away.

Because we didn't do it ourselves and it was corrupt as hell.

 

[Tigerace117]

Because we didn't do it ourselves and it was corrupt as hell.

The US bombing Colombia wouldn’t have changed a thing aside from making the cartels heroes even more than they were already.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

The US bombing Colombia wouldn’t have changed a thing aside from making the cartels heroes even more than they were already.

You have no idea if that is true, because that is not what happened.
Systemic corruption was everywhere, and the U.S. wasted efforts and time on limited approaches and non violent means like spraying crops which was ineffective.
I don't care who and where it is - involving local governments is never going to work. And still doesn't now.
We do it ourselves.

 

[Tigerace117]

You have no idea if that is true, because that is not what happened.
Systemic corruption was everywhere, and the U.S. wasted efforts and time on limited approaches and non violent means like spraying crops which was ineffective.
I don't care who and where it is - involving local governments is never going to work. And still doesn't now.
We do it ourselves.

….we know the US failed miserably to stamp out the drug trade in any of its conflicts… ever, really.

Trying to brutalize the locals simply drives them fervently into the arms of the cartels.

Then a bunch of Americans get slaughtered and America retreats, defeated and whining yet again. There is no way to “win” without the support of the local people.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

….we know the US failed miserably to stamp out the drug trade in any of its conflicts… ever, really.

Trying to brutalize the locals simply drives them fervently into the arms of the cartels.

Then a bunch of Americans get slaughtered and America retreats, defeated and whining yet again. There is no way to “win” without the support of the local people.

Nope.
Say whatever you want. There is no winning the Columbian or Mexican "locals" anymore than it was possible to win over people in Iraq or Afghanistan.
They are extraordinarily different than we are.

Or we can do as you suggest - nothing. And 1000s of young people keep right on dying.

 

[Tigerace117]

Nope.
Say whatever you want. There is no winning the Columbian or Mexican "locals" anymore than it was possible to win over people in Iraq or Afghanistan.
They are extraordinarily different than we are.

Or we can do as you suggest - nothing. And 1000s of young people keep right on dying.

…..according to who? Because the historical record pretty clearly shows that to be laughably false.

Trying to war in Mexico or Colombia ensures thousands of Americans die.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Are you saying that we no longer HAVE ANY JaG's at all in the entire military?

"THE" JAG is the Judge Advocate General of a given service. Subordinate Officers are in the JAG Corps. For example the current Judge Advocate General for the United States Navy is Major General (USMC) David J. Bligh.

WW