• We will be taking the server down at approximately 3:30 AM ET on Wednesday, 10/8/25. We have a hard drive that is in the early stages of failure and this is necessary to prevent data loss. We hope to be back up and running quickly, however this process could take some time.
  • This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

The south would have desegregated itself

Slavery might have died out with the advent of better automated farming equipment. But it does not follow that the end of slavery in this way would have led to the acceptance of former slaves as equal citizens.

The plantation owners could have had the slaves run the farm equipment and the plantation. But the advent of farming equipment would have caused the price of slaves to drop, and there would have been excess supply of slaves. If slavery still existed in that context, it doesn't mean they would have just freed ALL of the slaves, and as you pointed out, it would not led to the acceptance of former slaves being equal citizens.
 
You are assuming that those in authority are more qualified and justified in ordering others to live their lives a certain way. I don't hold that assumption.

I know that you're referring to those "those in authority" as government authority, and you believe the government over stepped in freeing slaves and ending segregation, but your statement is so one sided. You obviously assume that authoritative slave owners were qualified and justified in ordering their slaves how to live their lives.

Why should I feel sorry for business owners and slaver owners that slavery and segregation ended? There is a huge difference between not being able to own slaves, and being slave which means you're legally treated as piece property and can be sold, physically beaten, abused, and even killed.

I have no empathy of the guy working at some cafe in 1965 who suddenly had to serve a black man a cup of coffee... :shrug:
 
I've lived in Alabama most of my life and I think that, for the most part, it's an accepting state. That being said, there is still racism or discrimination. The younger generation is increasingly accepting, with only minor youthful idiots holding to the racism of the past. Would this progress have happened without the civil rights movement? Who knows? That's speculation. I can't imagine myself being discriminant toward anyone.

That is my general perception of young people too. That is where true hope lies.
 
Not when social pressure is to do the right thing. I am not talking about the idiotic stupid thuggery and hoodlumism and bullying tactics of numbnuts and a-holes who terrorize people and destroy things and try to hurt people to demand and get their way. I am talking about the gentle pressure of society to do things the right way and encouraging people to do that.

But society cannot be counted on to always do the right thing. History proves this over and over again. Your optimism about society seems based on your own personal optimism, not on history.
 
You are assuming that those in authority are more qualified and justified in ordering others to live their lives a certain way. I don't hold that assumption.

The assumption is this: government is put in place to secure our rights, no matter who violates them. If society violates our rights, we take our case to the only power who can speak for the powerless. In this country, that is a key function of the government. It is the American way.
 
For some reason, I think if your people were owned as slaves or you were a black person you would support the government stepping in and ending the practice sooner rather than later.

If I were alive that time, I would like to think that would fight against injustice, slavery, and support the Civil Rights Movement instead of standing around and telling everybody to wait... :shock:

Perhaps. But all the black historians I have read agree that the U.S. government could have done a much better job of ending slavery in a way that did much less damage to black people. Abraham Lincoln was no emancipator as much as he was a dedicated leader determined to preserve the union. Had the south not seceded, he never would have issued the Emancipation Proclamation. And even then he did not consider black people equal to white people and was a strong segregationist. It would be a long time before black people had much chance for any kind of fair and equal treatment in white society. And black people fared little better in the anti-slavery north than they did in the post antebellum south.
Northern Exclusion of Blacks

Again it is important to separate the principle we ALL, black, white, or any other flavor, can agree on--there is absolutely no justification of any kind for slavery or segregation--from the process by which the principle is realized. The surest and easiest way to eliminate a problem in your leg might be to amputate the leg. But most of us would see the negative consequences of that as unjustifiable to accomplish what we need to accomplish even if the less destructive cure would be more difficult and take much longer.

When it comes to addressing the needs of people, we should understand that there are poor, better, and best ways to accomplish what we want to accomplish there too.



Was ending slavery and segregation a good thing? Absolutely. But again, HOW something is accomplished is sometimes just as important as the accomplishment itself.
 
Perhaps. But all the black historians I have read agree that the U.S. government could have done a much better job of ending slavery in a way that did much less damage to black people. Abraham Lincoln was no emancipator as much as he was a dedicated leader determined to preserve the union. Had the south not seceded, he never would have issued the Emancipation Proclamation. And even then he did not consider black people equal to white people and was a strong segregationist. It would be a long time before black people had much chance for any kind of fair and equal treatment in white society. And black people fared little better in the anti-slavery north than they did in the post antebellum south.
Northern Exclusion of Blacks

Again it is important to separate the principle we ALL, black, white, or any other flavor, can agree on--there is absolutely no justification of any kind for slavery or segregation--from the process by which the principle is realized. The surest and easiest way to eliminate a problem in your leg might be to amputate the leg. But most of us would see the negative consequences of that as unjustifiable to accomplish what we need to accomplish even if the less destructive cure would be more difficult and take much longer.

When it comes to addressing the needs of people, we should understand that there are poor, better, and best ways to accomplish what we want to accomplish there too.



Was ending slavery and segregation a good thing? Absolutely. But again, HOW something is accomplished is sometimes just as important as the accomplishment itself.

Maybe you need to read more black and white historians, particularly those who don't have an ideology to promote.
 
I know that you're referring to those "those in authority" as government authority, and you believe the government over stepped in freeing slaves and ending segregation, but your statement is so one sided. You obviously assume that authoritative slave owners were qualified and justified in ordering their slaves how to live their lives.

Why should I feel sorry for business owners and slaver owners that slavery and segregation ended? There is a huge difference between not being able to own slaves, and being slave which means you're legally treated as piece property and can be sold, physically beaten, abused, and even killed.

I have no empathy of the guy working at some cafe in 1965 who suddenly had to serve a black man a cup of coffee... :shrug:

I did not say or suggest or infer that slave owners were justified in telling their slaves how to live their lives. Nor did I say or suggest or infer that I felt sorry for business owners or slave owners or that anybody else should feel sorry for them in this context. I would appreciate my posts being evaluated for what I say rather than what you (or anybody else) wants to assume I meant.
 
Was ending slavery and segregation a good thing? Absolutely. But again, HOW something is accomplished is sometimes just as important as the accomplishment itself.

Desegregation was not just a means to an end, and it took a great deal of work. If you don't like that I suggest you stay far away from revisionism. Not only are we not going to change how it happened, but it is commonly agreed that desegregation is linked to other civil rights movements via early abolitionists of slavery like Lincoln, who was active in engaging legislators on civil issues.

See the paragraph about Habeas Corpus. The writ of Habeas Corpus, Lincoln argues, does not permit that "men may be arrested and held, who can not be proved to be guilty of defined crime," etc.
 
But society cannot be counted on to always do the right thing. History proves this over and over again. Your optimism about society seems based on your own personal optimism, not on history.

I have been citing history all day. Society can be counted on to do the right thing every bit as much as government can be counted on to do the right thing. Both will get it wrong at times. Both will get it right at times. I do believe that a free people given opportunity to understand right and wrong will much more often choose right over wrong.
 
Desegregation was not just a means to an end, and it took a great deal of work. If you don't like that I suggest you stay far away from revisionism. Not only are we not going to change how it happened, but it is commonly agreed that desegregation is linked to other civil rights movements via early abolitionists of slavery like Lincoln, who was active in engaging legislators on civil issues.

See the paragraph about Habeas Corpus. The writ Habeas Corpus, Lincoln argues does not permit that "men may be arrested and held, who can not be proved to be guilty of defined crime," etc.

Let's not bother with what I do or do not like please. I haven't expressed that and getting bogged down in ad hominem is not useful to the debate here.

I know my American history pretty well. Completed the coursework for a degree in it actually. Now you can accept the history I am stating re Lincoln's view of black people or not. It does not mean Lincoln was an evil man--he was a product of his culture just like everybody else is.

He was anti-slavery in every regard, but his took the position that if slavery was contained within the existing slave states, it would eventually self destruct on its own. He wanted the government to not interfere in that in any way.

Then once the secession of the southern states forced his hand, he wanted a humane and just solution for the free blacks short of fully integrating them into 'white' society. One solution he supported was to send all the freedmen to live as they chose in a colony in Liberia. It is clearly a case we have seen time and again: the paradox of those who adamantly oppose slavery and segregation but who hold views about black people (or others) that we would define as racist views. Non malicious racist views. Lincoln is a good example of that. In modern times, in my opinion, those who see black people as incapable of helping themselves without government help are expressing similar racist views.

And what I have been arguing has absolutely nothing to do with habeas corpus so let's not change the subject, okay?
 
I have my reservations about expatriating freed men.

Just wondering, with regards to your coursework, were you awarded a degree in American History upon completion?
 
I have my reservations about expatriating freed men.

Just wondering, with regards to your coursework, were you awarded a degree in American History upon completion?

Unfortunately no. I had completed the coursework for that particular major, but circumstances forced me to leave college before I had completed all the other requirements for graduation. I fully intended to return to complete the requirements and graduate, but again life circumstances intervened though I have taken a lot of college level coursework elsewhere. I am one of those weird people that has about 160 accredited hours of college coursework but no actual degree except for a couple of honorary degrees.

I am of a generation and have been in fields that this was no handicap for me though I have always worked in occupations that did technically require a degree. The world isn't so lenient now and I urge all those embarking on a college education to get the degree.
 
I wanted to get a black persons perspective on this issue and found a few sites that counter the OP's claim of segregation being a southern problem. Reading a article by the staff of the AtlantaBlackStar , they say that (8) of the top (10) most segragated cities are in the north.

Boston
Cleveland
Philly
Chicago
NYC
Milwaukee
Detroit

St. Louis was in the top 10, but is in the midwest.

Miami being the only southern state in the top 10.

Top 10 Most Segregated Cities in the US - Atlanta Black Star
Truth can be a downright inconvenient little bastard....
 
I know Boston is for a fact....

I lived on the streets in that city for almost 3 years.
The northeast itself is for the most part segregated.
 
The northeast itself is for the most part segregated.

It's not really segregated, but remote from the Deep South. There are diverse communities which, while very densely populated by white people, do not discriminate by creed. Just like Canada.
 
I did not say or suggest or infer that slave owners were justified in telling their slaves how to live their lives. Nor did I say or suggest or infer that I felt sorry for business owners or slave owners or that anybody else should feel sorry for them in this context. I would appreciate my posts being evaluated for what I say rather than what you (or anybody else) wants to assume I meant.

You didn't outright say that you feel sorry for business owners and slave owners, but you have implied a lot. You think it was wrong for the government to force change, because it was a violation of freedom. Freedom of the slave owners and business owners, obviously, but you don't address the fact that government imposed authority on the lives of slaves first by recognizing slavery a legal practice. What about the freedom of slaves? What about government telling slaves to live as slaves?

Your posts lack empathy and understanding for everybody's freedom.
 
Last edited:
I have been citing history all day. Society can be counted on to do the right thing every bit as much as government can be counted on to do the right thing. Both will get it wrong at times. Both will get it right at times. I do believe that a free people given opportunity to understand right and wrong will much more often choose right over wrong.

I think you cited one book by Thomas Sowell. He is a highly regarded author in some circles, but most people actually view him as polarizing and agenda driven. I am not going to take his work alone seriously. Nobody should.
 
You didn't outright say that you feel sorry for business owners and slave owners, but you have implied a lot. You think it was wrong for the government to force change, because it was a violation of freedom. Freedom of the slave owners and business owners, obviously, but you don't address the fact that government imposed authority on the lives of slaves first by recognizing slavery a legal practice. What about the freedom of slaves? What about government telling slaves to live as slaves?

Your posts lack empathy and understanding for everybody's freedom.

Wow I'm impressed that you are so sure of what I have implied or what I have empathy or understanding for. It sure is news to me. I'm quite certain I have not said ANYTHING to merit that kind of judgment of me, but oh well. Maybe you have super powers to look into me and see what I don't see. Can you tell me what lies in store for me tomorrow?
 
The discussion of segregation is divisive? Segregation ended a long time ago, how is discussing history dividing people today?

Understanding history is imperative to understanding the world we live in. Using events and human conditions of the past to create false narratives which promote a liberal agenda is not productive - and that's exactly what demagogues do.
 
Wow I'm impressed that you are so sure of what I have implied or what I have empathy or understanding for. It sure is news to me. I'm quite certain I have not said ANYTHING to merit that kind of judgment of me, but oh well. Maybe you have super powers to look into me and see what I don't see. Can you tell me what lies in store for me tomorrow?

It doesn't take superpowers. I have simply read your posts, and you have said all on your own that the government ending slavery and segration was a violation of freedom so you can put the victim card away. :roll:
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom