The Robber Baron Myth

[ataraxia]

I'm familiar with company towns. There were struggles of course as there have always been but people weren't trapped there for generations like public housing. I recommend looking into public housing and the conditions the minorities who are oppressed there as a result of your government regulations and laws.

Child labor laws and other regulations on the free market are a little like vaccines, modern medicine, and public education: they have been SO effective that people have taken them for granted. They are a victim of their own success. I guess every generation has to re-learn the lessons. This is also a testament to our poor educational system. I am sure gutting those will help.

 

[BirdinHand]

Child labor laws and other regulations on the free market are a little like vaccines, modern medicine, and public education: they have been SO effective that people have taken them for granted. They are a victim of their own success. I guess every generation has to re-learn the lessons. This is also a testament to our poor educational system. I am sure gutting those will help.

There are always folks on the fringes who sit around and think how much better society would be without “regulations” and government.

They do this while enjoying living within a society governed by a government and regulations that protect them.

 

[weaver2]

A myth is a story that explains world and human experience and events that otherwise can’t be explained. The purpose of establishing a myth is to shape society and social behavior. When myths get established and adopted, they tend to be so strongly held that when anyone comes along and differs with and contradicts them they face the risk of being dismissed with no thought or consideration for the truth they may be telling.
Starting today I'm going to take the risk of such dismissal because it's so urgent and important to me that the myths I'm going to address(in separate threads) are deflated and the reality is recognized. So that way a correct perception of past and present can be examined for the sake of benefiting society.
Over the past nine decades there has been a drastic shift in the attitude and opinion of the public in relation to the role of individuals and governments in a society. The shift being from the belief in individual responsibility to a society in which the emphasis is on social responsibility and the government the protector of the individual.
In order for such a shift in public attitudes and opinions to occur, they largely have to be produced and reinforced by the development of myths about prior experience. I’m going to cover some of the myths which have caused the shift in attitude and opinion and are likely a part of your thinking if you’ve ever taken American history courses at any level.
The first Myth i'm going to confront is the robber baron myth. The myth that the 19th century was a time in which the rich became richer and the poor became poorer. The myth that it was a century of growing wealth inequality as a result of the free market system. That It was an era where rugged unrestrained individualism existed and as a consequence greedy monopoly capitalists exploited the working class and poor unmercifully.
That is the myth. So what is the reality? The reality is there is almost no other period in recorded human history which saw such improvement in the standard of living of the ordinary man and woman as the 19th and early 20th century did. That was a period when millions of people from all over the world streamed to America with nothing but the hope they could make a better life for themselves and their children and their children’s children. And they succeeded. Those of us in this forum are the heirs of that. We benefited by the virtue of freedom this country offered to our ancestors and by that virtue they were able to make a better life for themselves and us.
Do you suppose our ancestors came here to be oppressed and exploited unmercifully by greedy monopoly capitalists? No. If the myth were reality, then America would only have had an initial inflow of people who thought they were going to improve their living but ended up being worse off. They would not have been followed by their relatives, friends and fellow countrymen and women who were facing the same conditions in which they now knew could be improved in America and the continued inflow of immigrants seen wouldn’t have been sustained year after year.
This myth gets its appeal from the common fallacy that one person's gain is another person's loss. Which is a damning thought. While it is true many became wealthy during that time and robber barons exist. They still do today, They always have. People are people, majority have morals, few don’t, and the few who don't always seem to get more recognition, that is a part of the course of history unfortunately.
However, the moral of the story is that the same system which enabled a few to become extremely wealthy off their own ideas and innovations, was also the same system which provided the freedom and opportunities for millions of people to improve their lives and for very first time in many of their families history, presented the chance to become wealthy themselves. Everyone can benefit. The few who did become wealthy didn’t do so at the expense of others. But by developing revolutionary ideas which created those opportunities which didn’t exist for anyone before.
While it is true there are some people better off than others in America. When all is said and done, by and large even the poorest and most disadvantaged people in this country still have above the average standard of living of more than half the world’s population. Now this doesn’t mean we should be satisfied, we are a wealthier country and have and can be better, but we ought to have a sense of proportion when it comes to recognizing both the source and the problem.

I can't wait for your next "myth"

 

[Loulit01]

You are missing the main point of my post. I never denied robber barons didn't exist.

The first Myth i'm going to confront is the robber baron myth.

And you mean you never denied robber barons existed. That sentence is as confused as your OP.

I never denied bad things happened. As I said they have always existed. The problem with the reaction some people like yourself are having is you are failing to proportion when it comes to these things. You fail to recognize the progress that was made during the same time. I could go looking for facts I already know that are readily available for you to access yourself but you'll likely come back with other information I'm already aware of. I recommend reading more of everything rather than just negatives we've heard time and time again.

I'd argue with you but your post shows such a lack of understanding I'd have to teach you American history from jump street. Totally not worth it.

 

[Hamish Howl]

A myth is a story that explains world and human experience and events that otherwise can’t be explained. The purpose of establishing a myth is to shape society and social behavior. When myths get established and adopted, they tend to be so strongly held that when anyone comes along and differs with and contradicts them they face the risk of being dismissed with no thought or consideration for the truth they may be telling.
Starting today I'm going to take the risk of such dismissal because it's so urgent and important to me that the myths I'm going to address(in separate threads) are deflated and the reality is recognized. So that way a correct perception of past and present can be examined for the sake of benefiting society.
Over the past nine decades there has been a drastic shift in the attitude and opinion of the public in relation to the role of individuals and governments in a society. The shift being from the belief in individual responsibility to a society in which the emphasis is on social responsibility and the government the protector of the individual.
In order for such a shift in public attitudes and opinions to occur, they largely have to be produced and reinforced by the development of myths about prior experience. I’m going to cover some of the myths which have caused the shift in attitude and opinion and are likely a part of your thinking if you’ve ever taken American history courses at any level.
The first Myth i'm going to confront is the robber baron myth. The myth that the 19th century was a time in which the rich became richer and the poor became poorer. The myth that it was a century of growing wealth inequality as a result of the free market system. That It was an era where rugged unrestrained individualism existed and as a consequence greedy monopoly capitalists exploited the working class and poor unmercifully.
That is the myth. So what is the reality? The reality is there is almost no other period in recorded human history which saw such improvement in the standard of living of the ordinary man and woman as the 19th and early 20th century did. That was a period when millions of people from all over the world streamed to America with nothing but the hope they could make a better life for themselves and their children and their children’s children. And they succeeded. Those of us in this forum are the heirs of that. We benefited by the virtue of freedom this country offered to our ancestors and by that virtue they were able to make a better life for themselves and us.
Do you suppose our ancestors came here to be oppressed and exploited unmercifully by greedy monopoly capitalists? No. If the myth were reality, then America would only have had an initial inflow of people who thought they were going to improve their living but ended up being worse off. They would not have been followed by their relatives, friends and fellow countrymen and women who were facing the same conditions in which they now knew could be improved in America and the continued inflow of immigrants seen wouldn’t have been sustained year after year.
This myth gets its appeal from the common fallacy that one person's gain is another person's loss. Which is a damning thought. While it is true many became wealthy during that time and robber barons exist. They still do today, They always have. People are people, majority have morals, few don’t, and the few who don't always seem to get more recognition, that is a part of the course of history unfortunately.
However, the moral of the story is that the same system which enabled a few to become extremely wealthy off their own ideas and innovations, was also the same system which provided the freedom and opportunities for millions of people to improve their lives and for very first time in many of their families history, presented the chance to become wealthy themselves. Everyone can benefit. The few who did become wealthy didn’t do so at the expense of others. But by developing revolutionary ideas which created those opportunities which didn’t exist for anyone before.
While it is true there are some people better off than others in America. When all is said and done, by and large even the poorest and most disadvantaged people in this country still have above the average standard of living of more than half the world’s population. Now this doesn’t mean we should be satisfied, we are a wealthier country and have and can be better, but we ought to have a sense of proportion when it comes to recognizing both the source and the problem.

This is a steaming pile of bullshit.

 

[weaver2]

I'm familiar with company towns. There were struggles of course as there have always been

Struggles? Ludlow, Colorado was a company coal mining town. Wages were very low and mine safety was worse. John D Rockefeller Jr. the majority mine owner evicted the miners and their families from the company houses as punishment when the miners tried to unionize. The union built a tent city for the evicted miners. Rockefeller sent in his private army into the tent city with orders to shoot to kill and burn down the tents. 5 miners were shot to death


Rockefeller's armored car and machine gun.

but people weren't trapped there for generations like public housing.

2 women and 12 children were trapped in an underground shelter they had dug to avoid the shooting. It was underneath one of the tents. They were all burned alive. It didn't take generations, just one night.


Read some history before you start debunking "myths" .

 

[Fearandloathing]

There are always folks on the fringes who sit around and think how much better society would be without “regulations” and government.

They do this while enjoying living within a society governed by a government and regulations that protect them.

Ask any cop..

They are always the ones who speed through stop signs and park illegally

 

[Jason Warfield]

I'm here to engage critically on topics and issues of importance and hope to get people thinking and caring more. Refusal to acknowledge the content because you are apparently to illiterate or just lazy to read a few short paragraphs yet taking the time to write a comment that has no intention of taking the discussion anywhere is something a unguided child would do.

By not using simple grammar, you are being lazy yourself.

It is easier to get your own point across by doing so.

Please use the edit function so people can read your post, and use proper grammar in the future if you really want folks to read what you have to say.

 

[Loulit01]

By not using simple grammar, you are being lazy yourself.

It is easier to get your own point across by doing so.

Please use the edit function so people can read your post, and use proper grammar in the future if you really want folks to read what you have to say.

Maybe commas are illegal on whatever far right source he cribbed this crap from.

Pardon the preposition.

 

[weaver2]

The myth that the 19th century was a time in which the rich became richer and the poor became poorer. ........The reality is there is almost no other period in recorded human history which saw such improvement in the standard of living of the ordinary man and woman as the 19th and early 20th century did.

It was not a myth

"Economic growth spread to all regions of the world during the twentieth century, when world GDP per capita quintupled. The highest growth occurred in the 1960s during post-war reconstruction. Global nominal income expanded to $1 trillion by 1960 and $10 trillion by 1980. Some increase in the volume of international trade is due to the reclassification of within-country trade to international trade due to the increasing number of countries and resulting changes in national boundaries, however, the effect is small.[29]

World GDP per capita in dollars during the twentieth century.

Economic history of the world - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The era you are talking about, late 19th, early 20th century were known as the Gilded Age.

"The Gilded Age was critical to the growth of the United States by introducing industrialization and technological advances. It was also a time of political turmoil, greed, and extreme income inequality. The U.S. became the most economically powerful country in the world due to the era."
KEY TAKEAWAYS
• The Gilded Age lasted from the late 1800s to the early 1900s and was characterized by economic growth for the wealthy and extreme poverty for the working classes.
• A societal shift from agriculture to industry resulted in a movement to the cities for some and westward migration for others.
• The beginning of organized labor, investigative journalism, and progressive ideologies began to spell the end of the Gilded Age and its rigid class structure.
• The Gilded Age marked the beginning of industrialization in America—a time of innovation, transportation growth, and full employment. It was also a time of economic devastation and dangerous working conditions for labor

The Gilded Age Explained: An Era of Wealth and Inequality

The Gilded Age was a time of rapid industrialization, economic growth, and prosperity for the wealthy. It was also a time of exploitation and extreme poverty for workers.

www.investopedia.com

.........The few who did become wealthy didn’t do so at the expense of others. But by developing revolutionary ideas which created those opportunities which didn’t exist for anyone before.

Mostly the Robber Barons succeedd because of their political corruption, willingness to treat laborers as dispensible. It was the most corrupt era in the US and did almost nothing for the world's economy
"The Gilded Age was a period of increased prosperity and growth in the United States. This growth resulted in a corresponding increase of corruption and bribery in the government and in business. The main issue of contention was the spoils system, in which government jobs were given in exchange for political support."

Corruption in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You have not debunked anything.

 

[Rexedgar]

We are sorely lacking in history and geography.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

A myth is a story that explains world and human experience and events that otherwise can’t be explained. The purpose of establishing a myth is to shape society and social behavior.

Good, so we agree that billions were spent creating the recent media myths that brought American democracy to its knees.
How's the weather on Savushkina Street this morning?

PS: It's a lie, also known as propaganda, or indoctrination, or grooming.
But in any case, it's just lies.
The word myth is an attempt to romanticize a lie.

 

[RobertU]

The Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire

In 1900, 25,000 of the nearly 100,000 textile workers in the South were children under 16. By 1904, overall employment of children had increased to 50,000, with 20,000 children under 12 employed

Mining towns
The coal towns were almost always unincorporated; there were no elected officials, no independent police forces. Owners hired private detective agencies to watch over their workforce. Company towns were also untethered from the free market competition owners usually championed. Operators often paid workers in company currency, called scrip. They forced mining families to shop exclusively at the company store, which they stocked with food, fuel ,and clothing, even the tools and blasting powder required on the job. They set the prices of all those goods to assure a profit, a hedge against operating losses in the mines themselves.

What were the working conditions like in the meatpacking industry of 1900?​

Conditions were extremely poor in the meatpacking industry in 1900. Dangerous substances, injuries, poor pay, and abuse of workers were widespread.

'Orphan Trains' Brought Homeless NYC Children to Work On Farms Out West | HISTORY

Over a 75-year period, up to 200,000 indigent children went from city to farm.

www.history.com

Here are some examples of industrial abuse in the early 20th century:

• The Ludlow Massacre: In 1914, state police used violence to break up the Colorado Coalfield War.
  The Bethlehem Steel Strike: In 1910, state police used riot sticks and warning shots to disperse strikers at the Bethlehem Steel mill.
  The Memorial Day massacre: In 1937, violence occurred during this strike.
  The Colorado Labor Wars: These wars took place from 1903–1904.
  The East St. Louis Illinois Riot: This riot occurred in 1917.
  The Battle of Blair Mountain: This battle took place in 1921.
  The Herrin Massacre: This massacre took place in 1922

Other examples of industrial abuse include:

Anti-union violence: In 1904, coal miners were beaten and kicked by masked men.
The Industrial Workers of the World: This organization attracted attention in 1906 and 1909.

I could go on and on...

The robber barons were called robber barons because they were robber barons. Talk about revisionist history... Christ.

Operators often paid workers in company currency

The new "company currency" will be cryptocurrency.

 

[noonereal]

A myth is a story that explains world and human experience and events that otherwise can’t be explained. The purpose of establishing a myth is to shape society and social behavior. When myths get established and adopted, they tend to be so strongly held that when anyone comes along and differs with and contradicts them they face the risk of being dismissed with no thought or consideration for the truth they may be telling.
Starting today I'm going to take the risk of such dismissal because it's so urgent and important to me that the myths I'm going to address(in separate threads) are deflated and the reality is recognized. So that way a correct perception of past and present can be examined for the sake of benefiting society.
Over the past nine decades there has been a drastic shift in the attitude and opinion of the public in relation to the role of individuals and governments in a society. The shift being from the belief in individual responsibility to a society in which the emphasis is on social responsibility and the government the protector of the individual.
In order for such a shift in public attitudes and opinions to occur, they largely have to be produced and reinforced by the development of myths about prior experience. I’m going to cover some of the myths which have caused the shift in attitude and opinion and are likely a part of your thinking if you’ve ever taken American history courses at any level.
The first Myth i'm going to confront is the robber baron myth. The myth that the 19th century was a time in which the rich became richer and the poor became poorer. The myth that it was a century of growing wealth inequality as a result of the free market system. That It was an era where rugged unrestrained individualism existed and as a consequence greedy monopoly capitalists exploited the working class and poor unmercifully.
That is the myth. So what is the reality? The reality is there is almost no other period in recorded human history which saw such improvement in the standard of living of the ordinary man and woman as the 19th and early 20th century did. That was a period when millions of people from all over the world streamed to America with nothing but the hope they could make a better life for themselves and their children and their children’s children. And they succeeded. Those of us in this forum are the heirs of that. We benefited by the virtue of freedom this country offered to our ancestors and by that virtue they were able to make a better life for themselves and us.
Do you suppose our ancestors came here to be oppressed and exploited unmercifully by greedy monopoly capitalists? No. If the myth were reality, then America would only have had an initial inflow of people who thought they were going to improve their living but ended up being worse off. They would not have been followed by their relatives, friends and fellow countrymen and women who were facing the same conditions in which they now knew could be improved in America and the continued inflow of immigrants seen wouldn’t have been sustained year after year.
This myth gets its appeal from the common fallacy that one person's gain is another person's loss. Which is a damning thought. While it is true many became wealthy during that time and robber barons exist. They still do today, They always have. People are people, majority have morals, few don’t, and the few who don't always seem to get more recognition, that is a part of the course of history unfortunately.
However, the moral of the story is that the same system which enabled a few to become extremely wealthy off their own ideas and innovations, was also the same system which provided the freedom and opportunities for millions of people to improve their lives and for very first time in many of their families history, presented the chance to become wealthy themselves. Everyone can benefit. The few who did become wealthy didn’t do so at the expense of others. But by developing revolutionary ideas which created those opportunities which didn’t exist for anyone before.
While it is true there are some people better off than others in America. When all is said and done, by and large even the poorest and most disadvantaged people in this country still have above the average standard of living of more than half the world’s population. Now this doesn’t mean we should be satisfied, we are a wealthier country and have and can be better, but we ought to have a sense of proportion when it comes to recognizing both the source and the problem.

I am not reading all this trash.
Care to compress your thoughts?

 

[GIJane]

I'm here to engage critically on topics and issues of importance and hope to get people thinking and caring more. Refusal to acknowledge the content because you are apparently to illiterate or just lazy to read a few short paragraphs yet taking the time to write a comment that has no intention of taking the discussion anywhere is something a unguided child would do.

I agree with a some of what you wrote, as I DO study history.

HOWEVER:

Grammar counts when writing. It makes writing easier to read and, comprehend. Also, I'm sorry to inform you, lends people to take you more seriously. It very hard for me to take anyone seriously who does not write properly, as it makes people look uneducated, which you obviously are NOT. Phys is correct. Calling people illiterate and lazy because they criticize your prose style is weak. Think Ulysses by James Joyce

 

[nota bene]

Paragraphs are your friend.

The writing has been paragraphed, just incorrectly: There should be a doublespace between. Next, the accidental fragments and comma splice run-ons should be addressed. In fairness, the text is readable and understandable.

 

[nota bene]

I'm here to engage critically on topics and issues of importance and hope to get people thinking and caring more. Refusal to acknowledge the content because you are apparently to illiterate or just lazy to read a few short paragraphs yet taking the time to write a comment that has no intention of taking the discussion anywhere is something a unguided child would do.

Before you suggest that others are illiterate or lazy, you might want to master the distinction between "to" and "too."

 

[Peter]

Interesting, considering you’ve been here what supposedly? Two days.



I recommend learning more about history and what company towns were like. Your posts indicate you have a real blind spot as to many aspects of history of not only the US, but global societies when capitalism was left unchecked.

The industrial revolution started in Britain and there's a reason the rules are completely different now than they were then.
Child labour was the norm and injuries and deaths of those children was common and the companies involved didn't care.
Having company towns was a complete disaster as it meant workers had zero power as the company often ran everything in that town so you had no choice but to accept whatever meagre wages they offered and unuins did't exist.

Anyone pining for the old days is delusional and asking to be taken advantage of by the elites which is just completely daft.

 

[RobertU]

The industrial revolution started in Britain and there's a reason the rules are completely different now than they were then.
Child labour was the norm and injuries and deaths of those children was common and the companies involved didn't care.
Having company towns was a complete disaster as it meant workers had zero power as the company often ran everything in that town so you had no choice but to accept whatever meagre wages they offered and unuins did't exist.

Anyone pining for the old days is delusional and asking to be taken advantage of by the elites which is just completely daft.

On the other hand, everyone in company towns could walk to work, not burn fossil fuels driving to work from the suburbs.

 

[Peter]

On the other hand, everyone in company towns could walk to work, not burn fossil fuels driving to work from the suburbs.

So, you'd give up any any hope of being able to bargain with the employer for the chance to walk to work?

If you live in a town where the company runs everything you pretty much end up being trapped.
They can also just fire you for no reason and then you're completely screwed.

 

[RobertU]

So, you'd give up any any hope of being able to bargain with the employer for the chance to walk to work?

If you live in a town where the company runs everything you pretty much end up being trapped.
They can also just fire you for no reason and then you're completely screwed.

Well, supposedly there are proposals for "15-minute" cities, where people in medium to high-density housing would be in close distance to both work and shopping areas. And, of course, if we had true socialism, the workers would be walking to people-owned companies.

 

[Visbek]

The shift being from the belief in individual responsibility to a society in which the emphasis is on social responsibility and the government the protector of the individual.

Oh no!!! How did people ever wake up to actual reality like that?!?

The myth that the 19th century was a time in which the rich became richer and the poor became poorer.

That's not a myth. It's a fact. Congrats on immediately trashing your credibility.

The myth that it was a century of growing wealth inequality as a result of the free market system.

Also not a myth. Unfettered free markets resulted in big monopolies, whose owners were... wait for it... the Robber Barons. And it was government anti-trust actions which curbed some of their worst excesses.

That is the myth. So what is the reality? The reality is there is almost no other period in recorded human history which saw such improvement in the standard of living of the ordinary man and woman as the 19th and early 20th century did.

So, in your mind...

• Unregulated child labor was just fine?
• Exploitative wages, so low that millions were kept in poverty while working, was just fine?
• Companies hiring thugs to violently assault union members was just fine?
• Dangerous working conditions and high injury rates at worksites was just fine?
• Company towns, which exploited and trapped workers, were fine?
• Monopolies that deliberately ruined the competition, and kept prices high, was just fine?
• It was totally fine for migrants to live in tenement buildings that were overcrowded, unsanitary, with poor circulation, and without indoor plumbing?

That was a period when millions of people from all over the world streamed to America with nothing but the hope they could make a better life for themselves and their children and their children’s children.

Hello? Just because people were fleeing from even worse poverty and starvation doesn't justify the abuses of the capitalists at that time.

Do you suppose our ancestors came here to be oppressed and exploited unmercifully by greedy monopoly capitalists? No.

You're right, they didn't. That's why many of them joined unions, which were... wait for it... bitterly opposed by the Robber Barons.

Heck, some of them even became socialist and Communists, who wanted to ditch capitalism altogether. I wonder what life experiences could have possibly encouraged that...?

While it is true many became wealthy during that time and robber barons exist. They still do today

Isn't this what you are arguing against?

Economic inequality is not new -- and it rises and falls over time. And it rose to extreme levels during the Gilded Age. Why are you ignoring basic facts?

Everyone can benefit.

Tens, if not hundreds, of millions didn't.

The few who did become wealthy didn’t do so at the expense of others.

Yes. They did. They became wealthy as a direct result of exploiting the labor of migrants and others. How did you miss that bit?

 

[Peter]

Well, supposedly there are proposals for "15-minute" cities, where people in medium to high-density housing would be in close distance to both work and shopping areas. And, of course, if we had true socialism, the workers would be walking to people-owned companies.

I walk to work and I live in a 15 minute town.
It's standard in the UK as the country isn't built around the car and town planning is completely different and we don't have company towns or socialism.

I'm unsure why you think good town planning and having facilities near where people live is socialism as it has nothing at all to do with socialism.
Having mixed use areas where housing can co-exist with light shopping districts so people can get food and clothes without a car is not socialism.

 

[Deuce]

Eight year olds dying in coal mines and this dude thinks their lives were being made better.

 

[Peter]

Eight year olds dying in coal mines and this dude thinks their lives were being made better.

Yep, by 8 he should have been promoted out of the mine into a management position.
Slacker!!!