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The Right of Return

Serenity said:
Just to clarify, it appears as though your dispute here is whether the goal of Hamas is to kill "all jews" or "jews" right?

I would assume that i'm not the only one who isn't exactly heartened by the fact they only want to kill some Jews. It hardly makes Hamas the good guys Thunder.
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Thank you for that clarification assistance. Let me just say, I am not confident Hamas is too picky which Jews it goes after. This attempt to suggest
it only attacks BAD Jews and not GOOD Jews is exactly the kind of simplistic dualism Thunder has engaged in when describing this conflict that renders
his comments past absurd. To suggest because Hamas only goes after BAD Jews as Thunder does that this backs his statement that there is no declared
war against Israel or Jews speaks for itself. Its the kind of rhetoric that these debates unfortunately end up at with these simplistic depictions of
ideology and what is in conflict.

The fact is Hamas is in a state of declared on-going war with Israel. So is Hezbollah. Iran is all but in name. Many Arab League nations such as Syria remain
in a declared state of war with Israel. Many of these nations harbor Palestinian terror cells as Thunder is well aware.

I for one will not bother to list the attacks on Jews world wide precisely because anti Israel terrorists consider all Jews targets.

More to the point I am not a BAD Jew as necessarily Thunder's arguement suggests deserving of a terrorist attack because I support Israel.

That is as ridiculous as saying Palestinians deserve to die because of Hamas and other terror cells like Fatah Hawks or Intifadah of the PFLP, etc.

It is my personal opinion his reasoning engages in selective bigotry pretexted as political conflict.
 
Mika-El said:
Get out. Lol. Next you will me you are Jewish.

This is fun.

I have only one word for you which I know you know-PUTZ. Lol.
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Well, you must admit it was a rather silly question. I mean, why would Hamas want to kill Jews in Israel, when they could travel almost halfway around the world to do the same? ;)
 
Jewish people living on my street -- 4.

Hamas members living on my street 0.

The fact that the Jews on my street have not been killed by Hamas means that Hamas loves Jews! How absolutely brilliant of me, eh?
 
I support the right of return to those who can produce title to property in Israel proper this would go for their the heirs of said property as well, however, never have the ancestors of refugees been granted refugee status and when people talk of their right of return what they really mean is the destruction of Israel through a demographic shift. This right of return must, also, be extended to the Jews who were ethnically cleansed from nearly the entirety of the Middle East or in lieu of that just compensation for lost assets, I would likewise support an international trust for the compensation of Arabs who can show they lost property as a result of the Israeli war of independence in lieu of returning to Israel proper. It would likewise be nice to see the Arabs taking responsibility for the huge part of creating the refugee problem in the first place.
 
Serenity said:
...I would assume that i'm not the only one who isn't exactly heartened by the fact they only want to kill some Jews. It hardly makes Hamas the good guys Thunder.
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Good guys? who's saying Hamas is the "good guys"?

certainly not I.
 
Thunder said:
if their TRUE goal is to "kill Jews", how come ALL of their attacks are in Israel?
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Because they are the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas states quite clearly in their charter that they wish to kill all of the Jews and that their fight against Israel is only part of their overarching goal of pan-Islamism.

this silly accusation that Hamas is only about anti-Semitism, and in no way influenced by politics, is well...silly. And easy debunked.
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They are not only about antisemitism though the group is clearly antisemitic and has a genocidal policy towards world Jewry, they have other aspirations as well; such as, instituting puritanical sharia law and spreading Islam through offensive Jihad.

Article Five: Dimensions of Time and Space of the Hamas
As the Movement adopts Islam as its way of life, its time dimension extends back as far as the birth of the Islamic Message and of the Righteous Ancestor. Its ultimate goal is Islam, the Prophet its model, the Qur’an its Constitution. Its special dimension extends wherever on earth there are Muslims, who adopt Islam as their way of life; thus, it penetrates to the deepest reaches of the land and to the highest spheres of Heavens.
 
Stormageddon said:
I support the right of return to those who can produce title to property in Israel proper this would go for their the heirs of said property as well, however, never have the ancestors of refugees been granted refugee status and when people talk of their right of return what they really mean is the destruction of Israel through a demographic shift.
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I agree, and I honestly wonder what kind of records/documentation exists to prove prior possession of said properties that would be in dispute. From my understanding of pre-Israel areas inhabited by Palestinians, they were largely villagers/peasants/nomads, and the general populations didn't even have much knowledge of their own religion, nor the things that define the religions or distinguished them from each other. It's difficult to find much in the way of real observational studies that were done in that time period.

That being said, from the RoR documents I've read, it sounds like the Palestinian demands are far more than what would seem reasonable.
 
lizzie said:
...That being said, from the RoR documents I've read, it sounds like the Palestinian demands are far more than what would seem reasonable.
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no serious negotiators expect more than a few hundred thousand Palestinians to return to Israel.

the other way around this, is to let them "return" to the parts of Israel that are annexed by Palestine. that way, they are returning to pre-1967 Israeli land....though not messing with Israeli's population dynamics.
 
Thunder said:
how many decades have they had, to launch attacks on world Jewry?

how many have they launched?

exactly.
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They act regionally because a) it is more convenient, b) they are the Palestinian branch of the global organization of the Muslim Brotherhood, and c) they do not have the capabilities to act globally but their charter is quite clear on their global aspirations.
 
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Thunder said:
no serious negotiators expect more than a few hundred thousand Palestinians to return to Israel.
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Which is why Hamas is not a serious negotiator, however, they are the elected government within the disputed territories.
 
Stormageddon said:
....they do not have the capabilities to act globally but their charter is quite clear on their global aspirations.
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that, is one of the silliest things I've ever heard said about Hamas.

its not too dissimilar from folks who say Al Qaeda couldn't have done 9-11, as they were just a bunch of Arabs living in caves.
 
Thunder said:
no serious negotiators expect more than a few hundred thousand Palestinians to return to Israel.

the other way around this, is to let them "return" to the parts of Israel that are annexed by Palestine. that way, they are returning to pre-1967 Israeli land....though not messing with Israeli's population dynamics.
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Who are these serious negotiators that Hamas has that want to reach realistic goals and why are they not working on realistic peace plans and treaties too?
 
Thunder said:
that, is one of the silliest things I've ever heard said about Hamas.

its not too dissimilar from folks who say Al Qaeda couldn't have done 9-11, as they were just a bunch of Arabs living in caves.
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International travel isn't exactly easy for those living in the occupied territories, in fact until recently they weren't even allowed to cross into Egypt.

Regardless as I already told you Hamas is only the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood.
 
Stormageddon said:
International travel isn't exactly easy for those living in the occupied territories, in fact until recently they weren't even allowed to cross into Egypt.....
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and the Palestinians have no sympathizers in the Middle East, Europe, and the Americas?

Hezbollah launched terror attacks against Jews in South America. Why hasn't Hamas?
 
Thunder said:
and the Palestinians have no sympathizers in the Middle East, Europe, and the Americas?
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They have sympathizers but they do not act in the name of Hamas, once again the Muslim Brotherhood has plenty of affiliated organizations to conduct attacks outside of Israel. I'm not sure that you understand that Hamas is only one branch of an international Islamist movement under the umbrella of the MB.
 
Thunder said:
we are talking about right after the 1948 war, NOT today.

or are you suggesting that the 914,000 refugees should have never married and had kids.

today's refugees include the original refugees and their descendants. OF COURSE there are more now than in 1948. what are you suggesting here?
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May be a reference to the fact that "refugee" means something in English and something else in Pro-Palestinian-English.

Cause for every single other group of people everywhere else in the world, descendants of refugees are not themselves refugees.

Otherwise of course we would all be refugees...
 
CJ 2.0 said:
May be a reference to the fact that "refugee" means something in English and something else in Pro-Palestinian-English.

Cause for every single other group of people everywhere else in the world, descendants of refugees are not themselves refugees.

Otherwise of course we would all be refugees...
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For some strange reason, Ireland keeps refusing my own demands.

I wish I could understand why.
 
Wasn't Zionist natinalim in Palestine built around the claim that Jews are 'returning' to Israel and it still is the case today.. are you saying that this is a phony claim?
 
L0neW0lf said:
Wasn't Zionist natinalim in Palestine built around the claim that Jews are 'returning' to Israel and it still is the case today.. are you saying that this is a phony claim?
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This is a valid point that I hadn't considered. Thanks for your contribution
 
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