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The rich are different — and not in a good way, studies suggest

Wholesale, maybe?

I think the terms are used interchangeably.

the correct answer is different jurisdictions have different amounts or presumptions. crack cocaine used to be the only drug where mere possession was a federal felony but that may have changed. others required X amount for a presumption of trafficking

I remember a case where a guy grew a ton of weed and he was convicted of trafficking even though there was no evidence he sold the stuff
 
I don't believe in treating people unfairly even if it helps others

(and I don't buy for a minute the claim it does)

You interpret the fact that some lefty uber wealthy support higher death taxes means everyone facing the death tax supports hiking it?

I wasn't interpretting; I was just reading what you wrote.

And I don't believe it's "fair" to give vast sums of money to people who didn't earn it.
 
This type of societal engineering isn't as easy as flipping a switch and assigning some funding to a stand-alone program. As I noted earlier, this is a wholesale reorientation of how society functions - away from class-based polices and towards natalism (I can't think of a better phrase just now.)

The money comes from reprioritizing existing spending and the spending details change over time as the effects start to show up. For instance, there is a whole lot of money that is currently being spent on the lower class. They are subsidy sucks. As the birth rate in the lower class diminishes this frees up money that would have been spent at a rate of $25,000 per capita, for instance, to now be spent at, say, $30,000 per capita on the existing members of the social class and also have some redirected to creating the upper class incentives. Fast forward 10 years and the positive feedback cycle strengthens even more.

As the human capital level of the lower class increases, they become less of subsidy sucks and some even transition into net tax contributors to society. This frees up more existing funding to be redirected towards those who are still characterized with having low human capital levels.

It's an iterative process.



True, but your framing comes across as making perfect the enemy of the good. Secondly, don't discount the influence of human capital levels on income and investment returns. The single child that arises from poverty isn't wholly dependent on a modest inheritance. They've benefited from the sole focus of their parent's attention and resources. This gives them many of the attributes that the Left believes that upper class parents confer on their children via resources and attention. Meanwhile, the upper class children are being exposed to fewer of these resources and so their human capital levels would decrease on the margin. Thirdly, as some in this thread have pointed out, their are attitudinal "deficiencies" or "ignorance" that hypothetically arise in the upper class heirs that wouldn't, or shouldn't, be present in the lower class up and comers. Those with ambition and a desire to prove themselves, along with an ability to do so, can do much with their human capital even if they are not as fully equipped with financial capital as their upper class peers. Many of those upper class people are going to be "softened" by their "gift" of free wealth and they won't have the fire in the belly of the lower class adults. This is acknowledging the liberal version of how this social psychology.



I don't understand the basis for this charge for I thought I explicitly conceded that a reduction in lower class birth rates would boost familial resources dedicated towards child rearing. If there are nutrition problems in the lower class because the lower class household has to divide resources amongst 4 children, then when there is only 1 child on the receiving end of those resources they will stretch much further. Do you disagree? This same dynamic applies to all of your stated concerns.



Recall that I noted that there has to be buy-in from both sides of the ideological spectrum. I'm not advocating the taking away of opportunities of the rich children. I'm talking about creating incentives for the rich parents to have more children. If there is any blame to be apportioned then it falls on the rich parents who have too many children, just like the same blame would fall on poor parents who have too many children.

I'm interested in the incentives to wealthg people to have more kids.

Birthrate dynamics tend to demonstrate the exact opposite of your model. As people become more affluent, they tend to have fewer children. So your model requires a complete reversal of the existing situation, which is apparently an evolutionary solution, as its pretty universal.
 
that's an excellent point-the big dealers don't try their own supply

one of the most successful drug gangs took years to crack. the top guy had rules (you got whacked if you violated them as one of his underlings)

1) no USING

2) dealers had to drive area appropriate cars. a 19 year old black male in a ghetto driving a BMW or a Porsche screams DEALER. one driving a chevy or a pontiac does not

most low level dealers snort or smoke away lots of their "product" selling just enough to pay their supplier

Many low level pot dealers sell TO support their habits. Pretty common with other drugs too.
 
It's certainkly a novel approach. There are aspects that have merits, but there are also some areas that appear to have flaws, IMO. I'm interested in how he addresses those areas.

If NOTHING else its novel. To me anyway. And I love novel!
 
those who are rich and claim they don't pay enough taxes are merely engaged in hypocrisy or machiavellian political scheming

Wow, you can't even conceptualize people who feel a responsiblity to help the less fortunate! How sad.
 
half? really any proof of the first claim establishing the second

by why do you wealth haters concentrate on 400 when you schemes reach several million?

Wealth haters??? Would that be the "socialist working" class in our country counselor? Its hard for me to keep up with the terminology used in Turtledude Court.
 
If the rich are so miserable, why are the whiny poor that want their money always the ones bitching? OH...PLEASE tell me its not that you want their money but that you CARE about them...and want pnly for their happiness....:roll:
 
RiverDad said:
Sure, let's flip the scenario to water. If society is functioning very efficiently on 10% of the available water and then the remaining 90%, which they never used, disappears, then life will proceed along in its normal fashion.

I'm not sure what you mean by "efficient" but if you mean to use this word according to its common useage, I'm also not sure that this is what we should be striving for. Society in Medieval Europe was incredibly efficient. It was also incredibly unjust. The Aristocracy had insituted rules that allowed incredible amounts of money to flow to themselves while leaving the serfs with very little. We don't have anywhere near the income or wealth gaps that existed then, but we are headed down that road.

I certainly think that the situations are analogous in that the rich (speaking generally--there are individual exceptions) haven't done anything to earn their wealth. What they have done, most usually, is gotten lucky (or committed some crime) and used a dynamic advantage to pay for politicians to write rules to give them a static advantage. The rate of wealth flowing to the wealthy is increasing, thanks to those very rules. I can provide quite a few example-classes upon request.

What I think we ought to strive for is not a completely equitable society, but one that is more equitable than our current one. I have no problem with someone having more than me. What I have a problem with is the fact that we have people starving or lacking access to basic medical care in small-town America, while Mayo Shattuck the III puts in a solid platinum swimming pool in one of his many mansions. I have a problem with it because those people who are starving or who lack other necessities work or have worked in their lives before becoming disabled, and Mayo made his money by having been born into a family that had wealth and connections--he just writes favorable contracts and uses a little money to have politicians (who write laws and judge contracts) see things his way.

RiverDad said:
Warren Buffet and his billions can disappear into thin air for all I care and for all it would affect me and my life. The fact that he has billions of dollars in assets doesn't affect me nor does it disturb me. I don't want his money. I'm don't have that poisonous bone of envy which dominates the lives of so many liberals. I don't have Buffet for his being successful. I don't want to rape him financially in order to punish him. I don't want to steal from him in order to make my life more comfortable.

Again with the envy accusation. Look: I don't envy Warren Buffett either. That's not remotely what this is about. If it were envy, I'd want his stuff for myself, and I don't. I'm happy with my stuff for the most part, and what I'm not, I can change. Who I'm concerned about is not me. It's the people who are far worse off than me. This is about asking why we have such a huge wealth gap, whether the way it got there was just and fair, and whether any person (myself included) could be a rightful claimant to that kind of money if gotten under similar circumstances.
 
Wow, you can't even conceptualize people who feel a responsiblity to help the less fortunate! How sad.

you assume that is what motivates the uber wealthy who support higher taxes. YOu also make the unfounded presumption that the only way a rich person can help the poor is to demand the government take forcefully more wealth from all the rich

I see the damage that has done and prefer the far more efficient concept of private charity

I find it funny that people like you charge I cannot "conceptualize" when in reality it is people like you who cannot conceive that there are other avenues to help people that do not involve government coercion
 
you assume that is what motivates the uber wealthy who support higher taxes.

No, I don't. You inferred something that wasn't in my post.
 
No, I don't. You inferred something that wasn't in my post.

And you made a charge that had no merit as to what you claimed I could not "conceptualize"

several studies have proven that those who oppose more government coercion are far more likely to fund secular and faith based charities than those who support more statist wealth redistribution
 
Wow, you can't even conceptualize people who feel a responsiblity to help the less fortunate! How sad.

We all feel a responsibility to help people who are less fortunate. Doing so, isn't just about donating cash to a charity.
 
apdst said:
We all feel a responsibility to help people who are less fortunate.

Well, you might, but I don't think all of your fellow conservatives (or, for that matter, all of my fellow liberals) feel the same way. If I had a nickel for every time someone of a conservative bent told me that Katrina victims could go screw themselves because they didn't deserve a dime of public aid, I'd be able to donate something like $40 to charity...

apdst said:
Doing so, isn't just about donating cash to a charity.

Yes, very true. Where we really need to start is education, IMO. And while that isn't all just about cash, the reforms we really need will cost some money.
 
I don't believe in treating people unfairly even if it helps others

(and I don't buy for a minute the claim it does)

You interpret the fact that some lefty uber wealthy support higher death taxes means everyone facing the death tax supports hiking it?

From the article
In other words, rich people are more likely to think about themselves.
 
If the rich are so miserable, why are the whiny poor that want their money always the ones bitching? OH...PLEASE tell me its not that you want their money but that you CARE about them...and want pnly for their happiness....:roll:

Because the poor are being robbed at the point of a gun by the rich. They don't want your money, they want their own money.
 
you assume that is what motivates the uber wealthy who support higher taxes. YOu also make the unfounded presumption that the only way a rich person can help the poor is to demand the government take forcefully more wealth from all the rich

Actually, it's been you who has repeatedly claimed to know what motivates people to call for higher taxes on the rich. You have, at times, claimed it was jealousy and envy and hatred while at other times, claiming it was wealthy people who were pandering to others
 
Because the poor are being robbed at the point of a gun by the rich. They don't want your money, they want their own money.

Dood...THAT may be the most hilarious thing I have seen posted here in a looong long time. Thanks for setting a new bar... :lamo
 
From the article. "“Lower class people just show more empathy, more prosocial behavior, more compassion, no matter how you look at it.”"

So to conclude to cure American, heck the worlds problems make everyone poor. we will have more compassion.

This is one pychologist stance in this article. So it equates to an opinion. Bet there are others who disagree with her findings.
Like the three pychologist who have looked at the Tuscon shooter. 1 say no treatment will get him ready for trail and 1 says treatment will and 1 says he doesn't no.
 
From the article. "“Lower class people just show more empathy, more prosocial behavior, more compassion, no matter how you look at it.”"

So to conclude to cure American, heck the worlds problems make everyone poor. we will have more compassion.

This is one pychologist stance in this article. So it equates to an opinion. Bet there are others who disagree with her findings.
Like the three pychologist who have looked at the Tuscon shooter. 1 say no treatment will get him ready for trail and 1 says treatment will and 1 says he doesn't no.

Judging by the low INCOME (income levels have nothing to do with class....I know its just a word, but words matter) people or advocates here on this site that CONTINUALLY start thread after thread whining about the rich, I'd say their premise on behavior, compassion, happiness, fullfillment, etc is at least a little bit flawed.
 
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