The results are in Liberals won't acknowledge

[heyjoeo]

You've gotta be kidding me. Mel Gibson didn't do anything for any spiritual crap. He thought to himself,

"What is going to make a lot of money? I haven't been getting good parts lately and my wife needs a new Benz. I GOT IT! Let's exploit the "I'm a Christian" outlook of life that the media adopted to me and make The Passion! Hide gore and blood under the guise of The TRU LIFE (Wtf0rz) of Jesus Christ! He suffered for you all so feel guility and pay me money!"

EVERYTHING in Hollywood is motivated by money. I don't even wanna HEAR the idea that Mel Gibson wanted to make a movie to "show the true meaning of Christianity and the suffering of Jesus for us all."

 

[V.I. Lenin]

Snuff films that cause guilt trips always beat out rants from an overweight liberal.....

 

[Pacridge]

You've gotta be kidding me. Mel Gibson didn't do anything for any spiritual crap. He thought to himself,

"What is going to make a lot of money? I haven't been getting good parts lately and my wife needs a new Benz. I GOT IT! Let's exploit the "I'm a Christian" outlook of life that the media adopted to me and make The Passion! Hide gore and blood under the guise of The TRU LIFE (Wtf0rz) of Jesus Christ! He suffered for you all so feel guility and pay me money!"

EVERYTHING in Hollywood is motivated by money. I don't even wanna HEAR the idea that Mel Gibson wanted to make a movie to "show the true meaning of Christianity and the suffering of Jesus for us all."

Well didn’t Mel, in the spirit of Jesus, give a very large percentage of the films earnings to the poor and hungry of the world- oh wait, sorry- never mind.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

You've gotta be kidding me. Mel Gibson didn't do anything for any spiritual crap. He thought to himself,

"What is going to make a lot of money? I haven't been getting good parts lately and my wife needs a new Benz. I GOT IT! Let's exploit the "I'm a Christian" outlook of life that the media adopted to me and make The Passion! Hide gore and blood under the guise of The TRU LIFE (Wtf0rz) of Jesus Christ! He suffered for you all so feel guility and pay me money!"

EVERYTHING in Hollywood is motivated by money. I don't even wanna HEAR the idea that Mel Gibson wanted to make a movie to "show the true meaning of Christianity and the suffering of Jesus for us all."

I think you can argue that, but you can never really know his motivation. Furthermore, I would argue that it was not a very good political move for him seeing the criticism it recieved through Hollywood. Furthermore, it had only one nomination in any category in the Oscars. As a student of film, I was taken aback by that, because whether you argree with the film or not, it is incredible cinamatography and the images and music are very effective and beautiful.
Maybe he did it for money, maybe he did it because he was following God's calling, or maybe he was doing a little bit of both. But all things considered, he's not a poor guy, so it's not as though he was desperate for this cash you know?
Moreoever, to respond to the idea that Jesus died for nothing, that is a truly sad statement. The reality of it is that He died so that anyone who wants to accept His own blood sacrifice may be with He and His Father in heaven for eternity. I don't know what more you were looking for from Him, but to me that seems like a pretty big "something" to me. Granted, many have died because they used "His name" in vain (as the Lord previously had said not to) but that doesn't diminish the fact that He sacrificed His life (an innocent life) because He loves you and would love to be with you in eternity.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

Also regarding the movie: The violence was hard to bear, and it didn't really have a story. But you have to remember what Mel Gibson said his point was in creating this movie. It was not to teach the story of Christ, there have been plenty of movies about that. It was not to convince anyone outside the faith to join the faith, rather it was just to remind us that have accepted Christ's sacrifice what actually happened to Him. It is a retelling of the single scene in the history of this world where our Creator came to earth and sacrificed Himself so that we could join Him for eternity. It is a reminder that this was no walk in the park, and that the very least we owe Him is that we attempt to show Him love.

 

[V.I. Lenin]

Also regarding the movie: The violence was hard to bear, and it didn't really have a story. But you have to remember what Mel Gibson said his point was in creating this movie. It was not to teach the story of Christ, there have been plenty of movies about that. It was not to convince anyone outside the faith to join the faith, rather it was just to remind us that have accepted Christ's sacrifice what actually happened to Him. It is a retelling of the single scene in the history of this world where our Creator came to earth and sacrificed Himself so that we could join Him for eternity. It is a reminder that this was no walk in the park, and that the very least we owe Him is that we attempt to show Him love.

It was a snuff film showing the devotion of a mentally troubled man who stood up for the voices in his head. I respect him fully for his kindness and his outlook on life (help your fellow man, do unto others, etc.), but all in all it was simply a movie made for people to go "Whoa look at what he went through, i feel bad...lets go to church.". He wanted to put some good old Dark Ages-esque fight into Christianity, and boy did he do it.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

It was a snuff film showing the devotion of a mentally troubled man who stood up for the voices in his head. I respect him fully for his kindness and his outlook on life (help your fellow man, do unto others, etc.), but all in all it was simply a movie made for people to go "Whoa look at what he went through, i feel bad...lets go to church.". He wanted to put some good old Dark Ages-esque fight into Christianity, and boy did he do it.

A troubled man who knew more about the OT than the men who were taught it since birth and whose entire life it was to make sure those laws where upheld? A troubled man who could come up with the most profound and intellectual teachings on life the world has ever seen? The same troubled man that had people following Him all over the map, devoting their lives to following Him, and yet you taught humility, non-violence, and yet still could silence the Pharisese with His incredibly intellectual responses? That is an argument that simply does not hold water. Jesus could not have been a lunatic, He was far too sane and understanding of His own environment. If He was anything at all He was a liar, and if you argue that, then why on earth would He die such a horrible death for something He knew was a lie. And how could He possibly convince others to die for something that they KNEW was a lie. If you're buddy came up to you and asked you to suffer torture that would end in your death because you swear that he came back from the dead even though he really didn't, do you really think you'd say "Sure, sounds like you've got a great idea?"
I think you're a little closer to the point. And you're right, it did make me say, "whoa, It absolutely amazes me that an innocent man would suffer that sort of mortal torture, go through all that pain through beatings and insults, when He never had to do any of it, and He went through all of that for me, because He loves me. That made me want to go to church, it made me appreciate again the sacrifice that I often take for granted, that He never had to make. So yes, I think if that was Gibson's intention, he did an incredible job, and I am personally glad that he did because now everytime we hold the Lord's Supper at church, I always think about that, and the extent of the sacrifice Jesus made.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

I think Jesus' life and teachings were infinitely more important than his hate-inspiring death.

But that's just me - the godless pascifist liberal.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

I think Jesus' life and teachings were infinitely more important than his hate-inspiring death.

But that's just me - the godless pascifist liberal.

That is because you do not believe in the sacrifical part of His coming. His teachings were wonderful. They tell us pretty much everything we need to do to have a perfect and wonderful life, if only we could follow them. But His death served as an opening of the gate to heaven for anyone who accepts His sacrifice. Life is incredibly important. Eternity with a loving and sacrificing God is incredibly important.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Okay.

So you have no problem with leaving out Jesus' teachings to leave more room for more of the blood he shed and the pain he endured?

The only thing close was when we saw him stick up for Mary Magdalen. But if you didn't know much about the bible probably would have been confused when you saw that.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

Okay.

So you have no problem with leaving out Jesus' teachings to leave more room for more of the blood he shed and the pain he endured?

The only thing close was when we saw him stick up for Mary Magdalen. But if you didn't know much about the bible probably would have been confused when you saw that.

Just like in literature, in film, you have to understand the author's or director's intent in the message being created. Mel Gibson was not making a movie about the life of Christ, that has been done before. In fact, there is a wonderful movie that came on one of the major networks not long ago simply called Jesus that I feel get a great job of showing the works of Christ throughout His years in which He traveled giving the word of His Father. But that was not Mel Gibson's intent. He knows that most people have a pretty firm knowledge of the messages of Christ, whether they choose to actually learn them and put them into action is a seperate matter, but the Bible is always right there if anyone seeing the movie wanted to know more about this man. But rather, Mel's intent was to show Christians the sacrifice that their savior made for them. That was it. It was to remind us that this was not a simple endeavor and it was not something we should take for granted.

 

[26 X World Champs]

The same troubled man that had people following Him all over the map, devoting their lives to following Him, and yet you taught humility, non-violence, and yet still could silence the Pharisese with His incredibly intellectual responses? That is an argument that simply does not hold water. Jesus could not have been a lunatic, He was far too sane and understanding of His own environment. If He was anything at all He was a liar, and if you argue that, then why on earth would He die such a horrible death for something He knew was a lie. And how could He possibly convince others to die for something that they KNEW was a lie. If you're buddy came up to you and asked you to suffer torture that would end in your death because you swear that he came back from the dead even though he really didn't, do you really think you'd say "Sure, sounds like you've got a great idea?"

Throughout the history of the world "religious leaders" have self-sacrificied themselves in the name of their God and they've encouraged their followers to do the same.

For example, Jim Jones, remember him? How about Heaven's Gate? How about the suicide bombers around the world? There are countless examples, all of which cause the same questions you asked of Jesus. Reread what you wrote:

If He was anything at all He was a liar, and if you argue that, then why on earth would He die such a horrible death for something He knew was a lie. And how could He possibly convince others to die for something that they KNEW was a lie.

Sure sounds like Jim Jones to me? Or, to directly answer you're query, it does sound like religious based lunacy.

My point is that that there isn't any science based in religion. It is within one's being. Science disproves the teachings of religion as it relates to actual world history. Science does NOT disprove the existence of God(s). Religion has caused the death of unknown millions of people, including many who were considered "heretics" or "witches" or other religious inspired "criminals." Throughout history theres been evil Popes, evil religious icons. They did lead their followers into death, and their followers didn't question their authority.

In Spain alone the Inquisition went on for almost 400 years! I repeat, the history of war is littered with religion inspired conflicts that were, in reality, simple power grabs and money inspired events. Religious people have been used forever as pawns in wars.

Personally, I do not see how an all knowing all everywhere God could be the cause of so much pain every day on this planet, and throughout the history of the planet.

All I have to do is think of last year's Tsunami as an event that very well could cause someone's faith to waver. hundreds of thousands of seemingly innocent people swept away by an "act of God." Are the families of these victims supposed to buy into the "God's Will" concept?

To suggest that no one who followed Jesus did so only out of blind insanity is simply, to be blunt, CRAZY!

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

I don't get why people blame things on God.

Why did God ALLOW 9/11 to happen? As I recall that wasn't god that was 19 Saudis.

Why did God ALLOW the tsunami to happen? As I recall that wasn't God that was.... El Nino.

And why must he judge entire religions based on a few twisted religious leaders?

The entire muslim world is judged by the actions of a few extremists. You judge the Christianity by what happened thousands of years ago.

I'll let you in on a secret: people judge us on what you do and say.

 

[Pacridge]

I don't get why people blame things on God.

Why did God ALLOW 9/11 to happen? As I recall that wasn't god that was 19 Saudis.

Why did God ALLOW the tsunami to happen? As I recall that wasn't God that was.... El Nino.

And why must he judge entire religions based on a few twisted religious leaders?

The entire muslim world is judged by the actions of a few extremists. You judge the Christianity by what happened thousands of years ago.

I'll let you in on a secret: people judge us on what you do and say.

Would not God control nature?

 

[sebastiansdreams]

Throughout the history of the world "religious leaders" have self-sacrificied themselves in the name of their God and they've encouraged their followers to do the same.

For example, Jim Jones, remember him? How about Heaven's Gate? How about the suicide bombers around the world? There are countless examples, all of which cause the same questions you asked of Jesus.

Yes, but there is a gaping difference between any of these religious leaders and Christ. They all were absolutely convinced that what they were dying for was true. Christ was crucified saying that He was the Son of God, God on Earth, the Messiah. So either He believed He was these things or He didn't, there is absolutely no reason a man would ever die for something THEY KNEW WAS A LIE; not the way He did, not the way He was tortured for doing nothing more than claiming these things. Do you know any sane men that would die for something they knew was a lie? Of course not. So that leaves us with the question of was He a crazy? And again I'm telling you, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR A MAN THAT HAD THAT KIND OF PROFOUND GRASP ON HUMANITY, FOR SOMEONE WHO HAD THAT MUCH KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THE SCRIPTURES, FOR SOMEONE WHO TAUGHT ALL THESE WELL THOUGHT OUT TEACHINGS THAT IF FOLLOWED CAN BRING A PERFECT LIFE, AND DOING SO USING INTELLECTUAL METAPHORS. This man was not crazy or dillusional. He had far too firm a grip on reality to be plauged enough to think that He was God if he were not. And furthermore, again I say, there were men who died for Him because they knew He rose again. If He hadn't, why would they believe in Him? And greatly moreover, why on earth would nearly all of the men who followed so closely to Him die tortured deaths simply for a man they knew to be a fraud? Again I say, there have been millions of martyrs, but they all BELIEVED THAT WHAT THEY WERE DYING FOR WAS TRUE. These men would have known one way or another, and they would not have chose to die if Christ was a liar.

My point is that that there isn't any science based in religion. It is within one's being. Science disproves the teachings of religion as it relates to actual world history. Science does NOT disprove the existence of God(s). Religion has caused the death of unknown millions of people, including many who were considered "heretics" or "witches" or other religious inspired "criminals." Throughout history theres been evil Popes, evil religious icons. They did lead their followers into death, and their followers didn't question their authority.

And so your theory is that if we got rid of all religions everywhere, that no one would ever seek any power or kill each other? Look, the human condition is one that seeks power, by any means sometimes. And what better thing that to use something as wonderful as religion, twist it to your own purpose, and then wipe out nations. But the reality is that it is people that corrupt religion, not religion that corrupts people. They use it as a crutch to spring into war, but if anyone would stop and think about it, they would realize that the Bible is chop full of commandments regarding the love and treatment of everyone around us. Mankind will corrupt anything at all that is beautiful and pure, but that does not mean that we destroy the item that was once beautiful and pure, but rather attempt to regain what was once lost for ourselves.

All I have to do is think of last year's Tsunami as an event that very well could cause someone's faith to waver. hundreds of thousands of seemingly innocent people swept away by an "act of God." Are the families of these victims supposed to buy into the "God's Will" concept?

Until you understand that the concept that you do not deserve the very air in your lungs right now, you will never be able to understand the mercy of God. God allows you to live every single moment, that is His grace. If you died right now, He still would have given you X number of years that you never deserved to live, because you have done nothing to earn your life (no one earns there life, it is a gift from God and from their parents). Yes, it is sad, for us, that these people died in this disaster. But the reality is that the fact they lived a long as they did is only because God allowed them to live. You cannot blame God for His choosing of where and when someone might die, because they are His creation, not yours. It is He who allows them to live and He who can allow them to die. It is not always His will that someone might die (He does give man free will, and they more than not, choose to disobey that His will), but He does not normally intervene, as that would be taking away our privelege of free will (if He saved someone from dying of a gun shot wound, He would be taking away the free will of the other person that chose that the person they shot should die). I'm sorry you don't think it is a fair system. But in reality, it is not your system to criticize. But do not waste your time angering at God because He allowed these people to pass, but rather appreciate the fact that He is allowing you to live one more moment.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

Would not God control nature?

Not if El Nino was set off by things that we have done to the environment through our carelessness. His choice to give us free will would stop Him from intervening.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

For some reason I doubt God sits around and says, "You know what? I don't like Sri Lanka. They named their country all stupid. I SHALL SMITE THEM." ::splash::

I like to think of God more as an observer. He doesn't act because he leaves decisions up to us.

When I was 5 I used to think the rain was God crying. I used to think thunder the angels bowling. But then this weird thing happened....

I turned 6.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

For some reason I doubt God sits around and says, "You know what? I don't like Sri Lanka. They named their country all stupid. I SHALL SMITE THEM." ::splash::

I like to think of God more as an observer. He doesn't act because he leaves decisions up to us.

When I was 5 I used to think the rain was God crying. I used to think thunder the angels bowling. But then this weird thing happened....

I turned 6.

Hey, it's your religion man, you can make God do whatever you want Him to if you believe it right?

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Look dude if you think angels like bowling...

 

[sebastiansdreams]

Look dude if you think angels like bowling...

Then it's automatically true? Surely you do not believe that we create our own realities do you?

 

[26 X World Champs]

Yes, but there is a gaping difference between any of these religious leaders and Christ.

That's your opinion, it's not fact. Ask the people in Jonestown and they would say the same thing about Jim Jones that you're saying about Christ. Now I know that Jim Jones was insane. I have no way of knowing if Christ was or was not insane, and IMHO you have no way of knowing either. That doesn't mean your beliefs are wrong, but they're beliefs, not facts, no matter how much you want to believe your beliefs are facts.

And so your theory is that if we got rid of all religions everywhere, that no one would ever seek any power or kill each other?

I've asked you before to not attribute your arbitrary conclusions as statements of fact from me. Again, as happens with you, if I make a point that you disagree with re religion you assume that I am anti-religion in total, rather than what I actually believe. Shall I make up some stuff about you too? I'll state my own opinions without your help, OK? Feel free to state your own opinions anytime you choose, just don't frame your opinion of me as if you were quoting me. Fair?

I never stated any theory re power and religion. Both are intertwined, both are separate, both have their evil side, both have value.

I simply said that religion is the direct cause of millions and millions of deaths throughout history, often in the name of God. That's it, and that's 100% accurate.

Until you understand that the concept that you do not deserve the very air in your lungs right now, you will never be able to understand the mercy of God.

Whoa! Isn't that a little over the top? Arrogant comes to mind too. What happens if all of your assumptions about your God prove to be wrong, every one of them? Please continue to believe whatever floats your boat, but please do not tell me that unless I see the light I'm doomed to never understand God.

What you wrote is the equivalent of my writing that anyone who professes to understand the mercy of God is an undeniable whacko. Arrogant, and wrong too, right?

According to you, since I'm Jewish, I have no way to have an acceptable afterlife unless I convert to Christianity, is that correct? I don't want to put words into your mouth? Can you try to understand how pathetic that sounds to people who do not share your beliefs? Look, you don't know anymore than anyone else on this planet what the truth is about spirituality. You do know your beliefs, all of which are valid.....to you...and to people who believe as you do, but that's it, nothing more than your belief, no science, no fact, no proof, nothing.

Sorry, but I can't accept your God as the be all end all. Maybe I'm wrong? Maybe you're wrong? Time will tell....maybe!

 

[sebastiansdreams]

That's your opinion, it's not fact. Ask the people in Jonestown and they would say the same thing about Jim Jones that you're saying about Christ. Now I know that Jim Jones was insane. I have no way of knowing if Christ was or was not insane, and IMHO you have no way of knowing either. That doesn't mean your beliefs are wrong, but they're beliefs, not facts, no matter how much you want to believe your beliefs are facts.

Yes, but do you honestly believe that Jim Jones was coming up with philisophical teachings that no one else had ever taught before, and doing so using the faith that was accepted by the religious leaders, only He had a better understanding of all of it than they did. You're simply grasping at straws here. There is absolutely no way a man can be plagued by his own delusions and still be coherent and intellectual to the point that Christ was, because we have record of things Christ taught.

I've asked you before to not attribute your arbitrary conclusions as statements of fact from me. Again, as happens with you, if I make a point that you disagree with re religion you assume that I am anti-religion in total, rather than what I actually believe. Shall I make up some stuff about you too? I'll state my own opinions without your help, OK? Feel free to state your own opinions anytime you choose, just don't frame your opinion of me as if you were quoting me. Fair?

Ha, you're the king of construing arguments, so do not begin to preach at me sir.

I simply said that religion is the direct cause of millions and millions of deaths throughout history, often in the name of God. That's it, and that's 100% accurate.

And I'm telling you that it was MEN that caused the deaths of millions and millions of people, not religion. Religion does nothing to that affect, it is corrupt men twisting religion to do these things, not religion in and of itself.

Whoa! Isn't that a little over the top? Arrogant comes to mind too. What happens if all of your assumptions about your God prove to be wrong, every one of them? Please continue to believe whatever floats your boat, but please do not tell me that unless I see the light I'm doomed to never understand God.

What you wrote is the equivalent of my writing that anyone who professes to understand the mercy of God is an undeniable whacko. Arrogant, and wrong too, right?

Absolutely not on either case. No, it is certainly not over the top, and again how am I arrogant for thinking that someone else is better than me? And I do not think that you can be doomed by anything I say.
I do not agree with you. I think that it is very right to say that no one can fully understand how merciful God is. God's mercy supercedes anything any of us can understand because God is constantly allowing us things and doing things for us that none of us would ever even think about. I am right now living in a wonderful country because God at some point allowed some men to be born that ended up either constructing our country or dying for it. No one will be able to understand the mercy of God to its full extent, not myself, no one.

According to you, since I'm Jewish, I have no way to have an acceptable afterlife unless I convert to Christianity, is that correct? I don't want to put words into your mouth? Can you try to understand how pathetic that sounds to people who do not share your beliefs? Look, you don't know anymore than anyone else on this planet what the truth is about spirituality. You do know your beliefs, all of which are valid.....to you...and to people who believe as you do, but that's it, nothing more than your belief, no science, no fact, no proof, nothing.

See? There you go again construing the argument. You even began by saying you're not putting words in my mouth, and then make the argument on the assumption that that is what I meant. You're not only hypocritical but you're incompotent.
Now, I was not saying that you cannot believe in heaven as an afterlife unless you are a Christian. But what I am saying is that as a someone practicing Judaism, your literature (the Bible, the OT) says nothing about achieving heaven as an afterlife. It only speaks of earthly rewards (trust me, I know that about the OT). There is absolutely no reason for you, if you are a practicing Jew, to believe that there is a heaven (as accessible to humans as an afterlife) given the religious literature you have. That is the extent of the argument.
And you're right, I could be wrong in all of this. But I am so positive in my statement that I live my life for it, and I would die for it. If you could prove to me it wasn't true, then I would no longer believe it. But I am convinced you cannot, because I have tried personally, and I know many others have tried, and ended up in the same place I am at. You do not have to believe in God, but that does not stop Him or any of this from being reality does it?

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

I think God gave us the Earth. It's our domain. I think god gave us free will and choice.

Put 'em together.

We make our realities to an extent I think.

Things that happen in the world generally happen because of people not because of God. That's just what I think.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

I think God gave us the Earth. It's our domain. I think god gave us free will and choice.

Put 'em together.

We make our realities to an extent I think.

Things that happen in the world generally happen because of people not because of God. That's just what I think.

Okay. But all of this is your opinion with no document or collection of minds to support it.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

And your opinion was spoon fed to you by a collection of minds.