The real Che Guevara

[ReverendHellh0und]

Because I've never seen someone who identified as a teabagger speak in such a way as to make me think "Ok, he has at least a grasp on the basic ideas of government." Waving around signs that say "KEEP THE GOVERNMENT OUT OF MEDICARE" is the more common mentality I see.

liberal mouth poop. Please at least come up with origional examples instead of nonsene someone else told you to spout.

I WANT to see something different other than an attitude of sheer ignorance but as much as I've looked, I find ALMOST no examples.

Like I said, there are 50 of us here, what positions of mine are you unsure of?

What realistic solutions has the teabagger movement advanced?

Well for one it exposed the vulgar jackasses who have nothing intelligent to state about the tea party movement other than regurgitating references to a vulgar genitalia act.

I suggest, if you want to talk about such things, go to the sex and sexuality forum.

Translation "Disagreeing with us means you are stupid"

Nah, IMO that would be your posts that do that. All you do is "teabaggers bad, they say nothing"

And that's it. You offer nothing more than you claim they don't. You don't have the hight ground, you don't have the intellectual ground. What you have is a big vulgar mouth and little substance.

What is the teabaggers' ultimate goal? What are they trying to achieve and what are they doing to achieve it?

Lower taxes, smaller government, and more accountable representatives..


You can see an example in NJ's newest governer.

The "teabagger" label was used first by FOX's Griff Jenkins, he coined the phrase and the teabaggers themselves used it for about a month before they figured out "Oops! The noble-ness of our cause DOESNT over-ride the quasi-sexual meaning of the term!" I use the term that was originally used BY the group itself. I mean we dont want to be too PC, now do we?

Not only are you vulgar, you are also lying... Nice. I never used the term, no one I know used the term, none of the 50 or so members here at DP ever used that term to described themselves....


So you are making excuses to hide your lack of intellectual ability behind your vulgar mouth.

I do think those were over the top. I only attended one anti-war protest and I was carrying a red flag at the time

Really? So you were one of the over the top kooks then eh? :lamo

I'd rather not in a public forum, the last two that I attended were in my hometown. If you want me to PM them to you, I can do that.

Sure, please do. I'm suprised you haven't already. Google?

Wanting that is fine, I dont begrudge anyone for wanting these things or even working to realize them. What I DO fault is people basically making a massive nuisance of themselves and throwing the equivalent of public temper tantrums because they didnt win the election and are just angry now and have no solid ideas or plans other than "NO MORE TAXES!"

Uhm you are begrudging us with your vulgar mouth and your childish antics. I've given you examples and articulated what we the tea party is upset about, and have demonstrated 50 or so people who are members here whom you can't dispute one of. So you are dishonest and a partisan hack who has nothing but vulgarity to show for a lack of intellectual discourse.

No, no I really didnt. That's the scary thing.

Granted you've been more articulate about your concerns than most, but it doesnt change the fact that the majority of teabaggers I talk to dont understand the most BASIC functioning of the government.

So you talked to the "vast majority"? Another lie. I find your dishonesty rather perplexing and foolish.

Actually I wasn't. The election was hyped up as an "in the bag" thing by so many Republicans because, in their words, America was just too racist to elect Obama. I have Republican family who didnt even bother to VOTE on election day because they thought Obama was going to lose so badly.

Of course throw in republicans and anyone against obama is a racist with a lie. I mean you have already embarrassed yourself enough with your vulgar mouth, throwing in the race card shouldn't hurt. :roll:

 

[Hoplite]

liberal mouth poop. Please at least come up with origional examples instead of nonsene someone else told you to spout.

That original enough for you?

Like I said, there are 50 of us here, what positions of mine are you unsure of?

I followed up this with questions.

Well for one it exposed the vulgar jackasses who have nothing intelligent to state about the tea party movement other than regurgitating references to a vulgar genitalia act.

I suggest, if you want to talk about such things, go to the sex and sexuality forum.

Ok, so you've accomplished nothing. Gotcha.

And that's it. You offer nothing more than you claim they don't. You don't have the hight ground, you don't have the intellectual ground.

How do you offer proof of something that isnt there? I have looked extensively for teabaggers proposing actual realistic solutions to their concerns (good luck figuring out what the concerns are beyond the hyperbolic) and found almost nothing.

If I'm missing something, then please, show me some links, show me if I missed anything.

Lower taxes, smaller government, and more accountable representatives..

You keep chanting that but you dont say HOW you want to accomplish that.

Not only are you vulgar, you are also lying... Nice. I never used the term, no one I know used the term, none of the 50 or so members here at DP ever used that term to described themselves....

Not at all. You have Griff Jenkins of FOX news to thank for coining the term.

Really? So you were one of the over the top kooks then eh?

I was carrying the red flag for the SPUSA. The SPUSA takes an anti-war stance and I was there to support the party in that message.

Sure, please do. I'm suprised you haven't already. Google?

Alright, it's on the way.

I've given you examples and articulated what we the tea party is upset about, and have demonstrated 50 or so people who are members here whom you can't dispute one of.

No, you've given me the standard teabagger chant of "lower taxes, smaller government." That's it.

So you talked to the "vast majority"?

Skim is for milk, dont do it with text. I said the vast majority of teabaggers I personally have spoken with.

EDIT: This tête à tête is rather off-topic and I hate it when people start sparring in my threads, do you want to reply to this via PM and I'll respond with the information you wanted?

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

That original enough for you?

I followed up this with questions.

Ok, so you've accomplished nothing. Gotcha.

One sign. wow. I bet I can find far more idiotic signs from people who would carry "red flags" than you can find otherwise.

As for medicare. If I am forced to pay into it, how is it an issue If I want what by law already is mine?


I think you are being rather simple minded in your attempts to smear.

How do you offer proof of something that isnt there? I have looked extensively for teabaggers proposing actual realistic solutions to their concerns (good luck figuring out what the concerns are beyond the hyperbolic) and found almost nothing.

If I'm missing something, then please, show me some links, show me if I missed anything.

You keep chanting that but you dont say HOW you want to accomplish that.

You are being purposefully obtuse. I can't help you if you are unwilling to be honest. I have been more than forthcoming as has been most of the 50 or so "Tea party" folk that are here on DP.

Not at all. You have Griff Jenkins of FOX news to thank for coining the term.

If true, did he mean it in the vulgar way you mean it And he is the speaker for the entire tea party?


Dishonest at best.

I was carrying the red flag for the SPUSA. The SPUSA takes an anti-war stance and I was there to support the party in that message.

Oh, you really want to go tit for tat on socialists and thier idiotic signs vs. the tea party?


I'd wager a donation for DP on that one. :lamo

Alright, it's on the way.

Don't see it, :shrug:

No, you've given me the standard teabagger chant of "lower taxes, smaller government." That's it.

17% flat tax, Term limits, reduction in spending, ALA Governor Christie. See how you fail miserably when you want to be vulgar? You look like a foolish hack,

Skim is for milk, dont do it with text. I said the vast majority of teabaggers I personally have spoken with.

Oh what a tangled web we weave.......


:lamo

EDIT: This tête à tête is rather off-topic and I hate it when people start sparring in my threads, do you want to reply to this via PM and I'll respond with the information you wanted?

Nah. I'm just going to take your vulgar mouth to task,. You show me some respect, and I might respect your wishes. but nice cop-out anyway, couldn't find a tea party to pretend to be at?


:lamo

 

[Hoplite]

One sign. wow. I bet I can find far more idiotic signs from people who would carry "red flags" than you can find otherwise.

You asked where I saw it, there you go.

You are being purposefully obtuse. I can't help you if you are unwilling to be honest. I have been more than forthcoming as has been most of the 50 or so "Tea party" folk that are here on DP.

Ok, I've asked SEVERAL TIMES about what the teabaggers actually are advancing in terms of solutions. All you've done is recite the teabaggers chant "low taxes and less government" but neither you nor any other teabagger has said ANYTHING about how to accomplish that.

If true, did he mean it in the vulgar way you mean it And he is the speaker for the entire tea party?

Only you are taking it in a vulgar manner.

Oh, you really want to go tit for tat on socialists and thier idiotic signs vs. the tea party?

I'd wager a donation for DP on that one. :lamo

Ummm...ok. My flag was red. Straight red.

Don't see it, :shrug:

Sent.

17% flat tax, Term limits, reduction in spending, ALA Governor Christie. See how you fail miserably when you want to be vulgar? You look like a foolish hack,

Ok, that's a start. However impractical, it's a start.

-How can you justify a flat tax?
-We already have term limits
-Where else are you going to cut spending?

You show me some respect, and I might respect your wishes.

Demonstrate that you deserve some respect beyond what I give the average person on the street.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

You asked where I saw it, there you go.

Ok, I've asked SEVERAL TIMES about what the teabaggers actually are advancing in terms of solutions. All you've done is recite the teabaggers chant "low taxes and less government" but neither you nor any other teabagger has said ANYTHING about how to accomplish that.

Only you are taking it in a vulgar manner.

Ummm...ok. My flag was red. Straight red.

Sent.

Ok, that's a start. However impractical, it's a start.

-How can you justify a flat tax?
-We already have term limits
-Where else are you going to cut spending?


Demonstrate that you deserve some respect beyond what I give the average person on the street.

So you barrage me for not being specific, then you attack my specifics? Please....


Tell you what, you stop being so vulgar and I'll waste some time with you, otherwise, I'll just laugh at all those socialist/communist scumbags and thier signs from the anti-war protests......


Those idiots were the best. :lol:

 

[Hoplite]

So you barrage me for not being specific, then you attack my specifics? Please....

I love that

But seriously, you expected me to NOT ask questions? This is a debate forum. You aren't doing very much to demonstrate that the teabaggers have an actual goal or plan to fix what they keep complaining about.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

[IcxMG]http://uvtblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/ww-bitch-please.gif[/IMG]

I love that

But seriously, you expected me to NOT ask questions? This is a debate forum. You aren't doing very much to demonstrate that the teabaggers have an actual goal or plan to fix what they keep complaining about.

It could be that, or..... It could be I don't waste my time on vulgar hacks.....



Try being a bit more respectful and see what you get in return.... :shrug:

 

[Hoplite]

It could be that, or..... It could be I don't waste my time on vulgar hacks.....

My wager is that the teabaggers DONT have any real plans.

 

[TurtleDude]

nope.... THiS fella

He led a rebellion against a vicious U.S. sponsored tyrant. It is the "U.S. sponsored" part that makes him so hated here. Had it been a Soviet sponsored tyrant, we would hang his pictures on the walls of our primary schools.

geo.

US/CIA Interarms Inc supplied MI garands were used to kill that turd.

I love seeing morons wearing Che T-shirts in America-it would be sort of like someone in Israel wearing a shirt with General Jodl's likeness on it

 

[TurtleDude]

My wager is that the teabaggers DONT have any real plans.

which if that is true is still superior to the reactionary call for MORE TAXES MORE TAXES MORE GOVERNMENT MORE GOVERNMENT

 

[Hoplite]

which if that is true is still superior to the reactionary call for MORE TAXES MORE TAXES MORE GOVERNMENT MORE GOVERNMENT

No plan is better than a bad plan?

 

[Sandokan]

Well if it's there then perhaps you can quote directly from the piece. You won't be able to because it's not there. Any idiot can go to the site and Ctrl+F for it and find that it's not there. I even read the whole piece to make sure it wasn't just a difference in translation and it's still nowhere to be found.

Yet on you go, clinging to the delusion that it's in there. Keep quoting your gusano sources (i.e. "The Killing Machine" boy that doesn't sound biased at all!); you've been exposed for the liar you are.

Do you have your own viewpoints? Other than attack and insult, you don’t comments on the articles and commentaries. Debate and argument shall be directed toward issues and post content not toward other forum members.

"There is not worse blind than the one who doesn't want to see", says the saying. Let try one more time. From paragraph number 8 in the article:

The Killing Machine: Che Guevara, from Communist Firebrand to Capitalist Brand
The Killing Machine: Che Guevara, from Communist Firebrand to Capitalist Brand: Newsroom: The Independent Institute

July 11, 2005
Alvaro Vargas Llosa
The New Republic

Guevara might have been enamored of his own death, but he was much more enamored of other people’s deaths. In April 1967, speaking from experience, he summed up his homicidal idea of justice in his “Message to the Tricontinental”: “hatred as an element of struggle; unbending hatred for the enemy, which pushes a human being beyond his natural limitations, making him into an effective, violent, selective, and cold-blooded killing machine.” His earlier writings are also peppered with this rhetorical and ideological violence. Although his former girlfriend Chichina Ferreyra doubts that the original version of the diaries of his motorcycle trip contains the observation that “I feel my nostrils dilate savoring the acrid smell of gunpowder and blood of the enemy,” Guevara did share with Granado at that very young age this exclamation: “Revolution without firing a shot? You’re crazy.” At other times the young bohemian seemed unable to distinguish between the levity of death as a spectacle and the tragedy of a revolution’s victims. In a letter to his mother in 1954, written in Guatemala, where he witnessed the overthrow of the revolutionary government of Jacobo Arbenz, he wrote: “It was all a lot of fun, what with the bombs, speeches, and other distractions to break the monotony I was living in.”

 

[Sandokan]

US/CIA Interarms Inc supplied MI garands were used to kill that turd.

I love seeing morons wearing Che T-shirts in America-it would be sort of like someone in Israel wearing a shirt with General Jodl's likeness on it

Exactly, you hit the center of the target with your comparison.

Chilling story of a former political prisoner Pierre San Martin, an eyewitness to the cold blooded murder of a child between 12 and 14 years of age carried out by the abominable monster of cruelty Che Guevara in the fortress of La Cabana. How it is possible that nowadays there are so far people who feel admiration for this mass murderer?

“It was during the last days of December 1959, the sound of the iron door opening was heard as they threw another person into the already crowded cell. It was a boy some 12 to 14 years old at most who had just become our newest cellmate. And what did you do? I defended my father so they wouldn't kill him, I couldn't stop it. Soon Che's goons came back, and they yanked the valiant boy out of the cell.

He gave the order to bring the boy first and he ordered him to kneel in front of the wall. The boy disobeyed the order with a courage that words can't express and responded to this infamous character: “If you're going to kill me you're going to have to do it the way you kill a man, standing, not like a coward, kneeling.”

Walking behind the boy, the Che said “whereupon you are a brave lad.” He upholstered his pistol and shot him in the nape of the neck so that he almost decapitated him.”

Here's a cold-blooded murderer who executed thousands without trial, who claimed that judicial evidence was an ”unnecessary bourgeois detail,” who stayed up till dawn for months at a time signing death warrants for innocent and honorable men, whose office in La Cabana had a window where he could watch the executions – and today his T-shirts adorn people who oppose capital punishment. By his own count, Che sent 2,500 men to "the wall." [5]

[5] Pierre San Martin, How Che Murdered, El Nuevo Herald , Diciembre 28, 1997. Pierre San Martin on Che Guevara

 

[Hoplite]

Do you have your own viewpoints? Other than attack and insult, you don’t comments on the articles and commentaries. Debate and argument shall be directed toward issues and post content not toward other forum members.

Oh spare me, you could care less about debate. You have an agenda, to smear Cuban and any sort of Cuban liberation ideology or anything involved with it.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

My wager is that the teabaggers DONT have any real plans.

Do the vulgar have money to wager? :shrug:



Che is the patriarch of angry rich white kids. :thumbs:

 

[Geo Patric]

US/CIA Interarms Inc supplied MI garands were used to kill that turd./QUOTE]

yes, the united states government assassinated him. i think i mentioned that.

geo.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

US/CIA Interarms Inc supplied MI garands were used to kill that turd./QUOTE]

yes, the united states government assassinated him. i think i mentioned that.

geo.

We did? AWESOME FOR US!!!!! :thumbs:

 

[Khayembii Communique]

Do you have your own viewpoints? Other than attack and insult, you don’t comments on the articles and commentaries. Debate and argument shall be directed toward issues and post content not toward other forum members.

"There is not worse blind than the one who doesn't want to see", says the saying. Let try one more time. From paragraph number 8 in the article:

Are you having trouble reading or understanding what I am saying? Yes, I saw the quote in your biased article. I then went to the piece (linked in my previous post) which your article claims the quote is from and it was not there. The quote is a fabrication. You can repeat it as many times as you want but that doesn't change that fact.

I'll go through this in more detail for you so you're sure to understand.

You posted this quote from an article titled The Killing Machine:

In April 1967, speaking from experience, he summed up his homicidal idea of justice in his “Message to the Tricontinental”: “hatred as an element of struggle; unbending hatred for the enemy, which pushes a human being beyond his natural limitations, making him into an effective, violent, selective, and cold-blooded killing machine.”

In this quote it says that the Che quote is from his "Message to the Tricontinental".

Now, if we go to the actual piece - Message to the Tricontinental - it is nowhere to be found. Here is the actual piece if you are interested in checking for yourself:

Message to the Tricontinental

Thus, since the article claims this quote as coming from this work, and since it is actually nowhere to be found in this work, then we can safely say that this quote is a fabrication, which destroys the legitimacy of the entire article and damages your reputation for being a liar.

Is that easy enough to understand for you?

 

[Geo Patric]

We did? AWESOME FOR US!!!!! :thumbs:

yes, we did. it was one of the principal incidents (along with several attempts to assassinate Castro) that cause us to pass laws forbidding assassinating foreign nationals.

geo.

 

[Sandokan]

Originally Posted by The Killing Machine
In April 1967, speaking from experience, he summed up his homicidal idea of justice in his “Message to the Tricontinental”: “hatred as an element of struggle; unbending hatred for the enemy, which pushes a human being beyond his natural limitations, making him into an effective, violent, selective, and cold-blooded killing machine.”

Are you having trouble reading or understanding what I am saying? Yes, I saw the quote in your biased article. I then went to the piece (linked in my previous post) which your article claims the quote is from and it was not there. The quote is a fabrication. You can repeat it as many times as you want but that doesn't change that fact.

I'll go through this in more detail for you so you're sure to understand.

You posted this quote from an article titled The Killing Machine:



In this quote it says that the Che quote is from his "Message to the Tricontinental".

Now, if we go to the actual piece - Message to the Tricontinental - it is nowhere to be found. Here is the actual piece if you are interested in checking for yourself:

Message to the Tricontinental

Thus, since the article claims this quote as coming from this work, and since it is actually nowhere to be found in this work, then we can safely say that this quote is a fabrication, which destroys the legitimacy of the entire article and damages your reputation for being a liar.

Is that easy enough to understand for you?

Well I went to the "actual piece" and I found it there. Here it is:

Message to the Tricontinental
Message to the Tricontinental

The beginnings will not be easy; they shall be extremely difficult. All the oligarchies' powers of repression, all their capacity for brutality and demagoguery will be placed at the service of their cause. Our mission, in the first hour, shall be to survive; later, we shall follow the perennial example of the guerrilla, carrying out armed propaganda (in the Vietnamese sense, that is, the bullets of propaganda, of the battles won or lost — but fought — against the enemy). The great lesson of the invincibility of the guerrillas taking root in the dispossessed masses. The galvanizing of the national spirit, the preparation for harder tasks, for resisting even more violent repressions. Hatred as an element of the struggle; a relentless hatred of the enemy, impelling us over and beyond the natural limitations that man is heir to and transforming him into an effective, violent, selective and cold killing machine. Our soldiers must be thus; a people without hatred cannot vanquish a brutal enemy.

 

[Sandokan]

When the Rumanian writer Stefan Bacie visited Havana, Che Guevara
invited him to be present at an execution. Bacie has made reference a few times to this macabre invitation, the last time in his poem:

"I DO NOT SING TO CHE"

I do not sing to Che,
neither I have sung to Stalin
with Che I spoke enough in Mexico,
and in Havana he invited me,
biting the pure between the lips,
like inviting somebody to a drink in the bar,
to accompany him to see how people are shot
at the wall in la Cabaña.

I do not sing to Che,
neither I have sung to Stalin;
let Neruda, Guillen and Cortazar sing to him;
they sing to Che (the singers of Stalin),
I sing to the youth of Czechoslovakia.

The difference between ‘Che’ Guevara and Pol Pot was that Guevara never studied in Paris.

 

[Hoplite]

When the Rumanian writer Stefan Bacie visited Havana, Che Guevara
invited him to be present at an execution. Bacie has made reference a few times to this macabre invitation, the last time in his poem:

"I DO NOT SING TO CHE"

I do not sing to Che,
neither I have sung to Stalin
with Che I spoke enough in Mexico,
and in Havana he invited me,
biting the pure between the lips,
like inviting somebody to a drink in the bar,
to accompany him to see how people are shot
at the wall in la Cabaña.

I do not sing to Che,
neither I have sung to Stalin;
let Neruda, Guillen and Cortazar sing to him;
they sing to Che (the singers of Stalin),
I sing to the youth of Czechoslovakia.

The difference between ‘Che’ Guevara and Pol Pot was that Guevara never studied in Paris.

Get a new hobby

 

[Sandokan]

Che, the radical left symbol, was a homophobe.

Che played a principal role in setting up Cuba's first labor camp in the Guanahacabibes region in western Cuba in 1960-1961, to confine people who had committed no crime punishable by law, revolutionary or otherwise. This "crimes" involved drinking, vagrancy, disrespect for authorities, laziness and playing loud music. Che defended that initiative in his own words: “We only send to Guanahacabibes those doubtful cases where we are not sure people should go to jail. I believe that people who should go to jail should go to jail anyway.”

This camp was the precursor to the eventual systematic confinement, starting in 1965 in the province of Camagüey, of dissidents, homosexuals, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, Afro-Cuban priests, and other such scum, under the banner of UMAP, Unidades Militares de Ayuda a la Producción, or Military Units to Help Production. Herded into buses and trucks, the “unfit” would be transported at gunpoint into concentration camps organized on the Guanahacabibes mold. Some would never return; others would be raped, beaten, or mutilated; and most would be traumatized for life, as Néstor Almendros's wrenching documentary Improper Conduct showed the world a couple of decades ago. [4]

[4] Álvaro Vargas Llosa, “Che Guevara, the killing machine”, The New Republic, 11/7/2005

This type of forced confinement without due process, was also applied to AIDS victims during the decade of the 80s and 90s.

 

[spud_meister]

Do the vulgar have money to wager? :shrug:



Che is the patriarch of angry rich white kids. :thumbs:

i'm a poor white kid and i like him, so neeer:2razz:

 

[Sandokan]

During the Cuban missile crisis on October 1962, Che demanded that nuclear war be unleashed on the United States. He told British reporter Sam Russell that “if the nuclear missiles had been under Cuban control (during the Cuban missile crisis), they would have fired them off.” Reportedly, he was disappointed when Khrushchev decided to draw back his weapons in the missile crisis. "If the rockets had remained, we would have used them all and directed them against the very heart of the United States, including New York, in our defense against aggression." And a couple of years later, at the United Nations, he was true to form: “As Marxists we have maintained that peaceful coexistence among nations does not include coexistence between exploiters and the exploited.”

On December 11, 1964, during a debate in the United Nations General Assembly where Guevara represented de Cuban government, this was severely attacked because of the firing squad executions without any judicial process and evidence as required by the rule of law. Guevara, on his own voiced, responded:

“Shooting people yes, we have shoot people and will continuo to do so until it will be required.” [1] This show that he was a person convinced of what he was doing, and could care less and has not any prejudice to send to the firing squad a lot of people, on condition that his points of view will prevail.
[1] Video link: YouTube- che guevara"Che Guevara: Anatomía de un mito".