The real Che Guevara

[webrockk]

Teabaggers are IDIOTS.

The movement has no goals, no clear objective, no clear issues, no clear or realistic stances, no leaders, and no clear plan for achieving the goals they dont have.

The teabagger movement is a way for pissed off Republicans to get together and legitimize each other's feelings of being wronged because, lets face it, being beaten by a brother with the middle name Hussein was pretty damn left field for the Republicans.

no clear objective...similar to the folks that boarded ships, and sailed into the unknown to escape the tyranny of the British crown.

 

[Geo Patric]

pfft!

they knew where they were going and why.

geo.

 

[Hoplite]

no clear objective...similar to the folks that boarded ships, and sailed into the unknown to escape the tyranny of the British crown.

Dear gods gag me with a barbed wire lollipop.

This is exactly why I have zero respect for the teabaggers, crap like this.

"Unknown" my ass, people knew exactly what was over there.

 

[webrockk]

Dear gods gag me with a barbed wire lollipop.

This is exactly why I have zero respect for the teabaggers, crap like this.

"Unknown" my ass, people knew exactly what was over there.

"California" "educator" speak volumes...when will you be escaping? Or are you part of the reason for the 20 billion dollar deficit?

 

[Khayembii Communique]

Do you ever actually say anything that has any content or validity/relevance?

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

"California" "educator" speak volumes...when will you be escaping? Or are you part of the reason for the 20 billion dollar deficit?

Moderator's Warning:

Stop the personal attacks or there will be more consequences.

 

[Hoplite]

"California" "educator" speak volumes...when will you be escaping? Or are you part of the reason for the 20 billion dollar deficit?

"Educator" is a rank given by the board, not something I can change or else I'd have changed it.

Are you actually going to respond to what I said or keep wasting my time?

 

[Sandokan]

Guevara became “supreme prosecutor” at Havana’s La Cabaña fortress after Batista fled Cuba. Here he presided over hundreds of executions in proceedings that even a sympathetic biographer notes “were carried out without respect for due process.” [1, p. 143]

The "cold-blooded killing machine" did not show the full extent of his rigor until, immediately after the collapse of the Batista regime, Castro put him in charge of La Cabaña prison. Guevara presided during the first half of 1959 over one of the darkest periods of the revolution.

In April 1967, speaking from experience, he summed up his homicidal idea of justice in his "Message to the Tricontinental": "To send men to the firing squad, judicial proof is unnecessary. These procedures are an archaic bourgeois detail. This is a revolution! And a revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate. We must create the pedagogy of the paredon! (The Wall)" [4]

The first three months of the Cuban Revolution saw 568 firing squad executions. Even the New York Times admits it. The preceding "trials" shocked and nauseated all who witnessed them. They were shameless farces, sickening charades.

Nazi Germany became the modern standard for political evil even before WWII. Yet in 1938, according to both William Shirer and John Toland, the Nazi regime held no more than 20 thousand political prisoners. Political executions up to the time might have reached a couple thousand, and most of these were of renegade Nazis themselves during the indiscriminate butchery known as the "Night Of The Long Knives." The famous night that horrified civilized opinion worldwide caused a grand total of 71 deaths. This in a nation of 70 million.

Cuba was a nation of 6.5 million in 1959. Within three months in power Castro and Che had shamed the Nazi prewar incarceration and murder rate. Cuban journalist Luis Ortega who knew Che as early as 1954 writes in his book "Yo Soy El Che!" that Guevara sent 1,897 men to the firing squad. In his book "Che Guevara: A Biography," Daniel James writes that Che himself admitted to ordering "several thousand" executions during the first few years of the Castro regime.

[1] Jorge Castañeda, Compañero: The Life and Death of Che Guevara (New York: Vintage, 1998)

[4] Alvaro Vargas Llosa, The Killing Machine, The New Republic, 11/7/2005

 

[Khayembii Communique]

Still no primary sources.

EDIT: BTW, I did notice that although you didn't link to or draw from this primary source for this quote, you did say where it allegedly came from:

In April 1967, speaking from experience, he summed up his homicidal idea of justice in his "Message to the Tricontinental": "To send men to the firing squad, judicial proof is unnecessary. These procedures are an archaic bourgeois detail. This is a revolution! And a revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate. We must create the pedagogy of the paredon! (The Wall)" [4]

Unfortunately, it's not anywhere in that piece at all. It is a complete fabrication, apparently. This is why I don't take you anti-Castro/Che trolls seriously unless you provide links to primary sources.

 

[Gipper]

Che was a pretty cool dude.

Oh yeah. Slaughtered thousands because he knew he couldn't hack it in med school.

Bet he got all the bitches.

 

[Geo Patric]

simplistic gipper, as are most views of Che and Fidel and Mao etc et al.

Che was a liberator and an executioner.

Revolutionaries tend to be that way. We have to realize that OUR revolution was the exception. There was little in the way of 'retributive' action after the American Revolution. Not entirely devoid of it, but certainly enormously less than others. But then, we had far less cause to be pissed at the British than Che and Cubans had to be of the U.S. backed elites of Cuba.

The Reign Of Terror that followed the French Revolution only a few years later was far more the norm.

Che broke a lotta eggs to get the omelet and it was not even a very good omelet. But it was a CUBAN omelet and that counts for something.

geo.

 

[Hoplite]

simplistic gipper, as are most views of Che and Fidel and Mao etc et al.

Che was a liberator and an executioner.

Revolutionaries tend to be that way. We have to realize that OUR revolution was the exception. There was little in the way of 'retributive' action after the American Revolution.

Not entirely true and ESPECIALLY not during the war.

Loyalists often had their houses burned, their businesses destroyed, and were attacked and often killed by rebels.

 

[Geo Patric]

yes, but nowhere nearly as severe as other revolts and mostly during the war... far less afterwards.

geo.

 

[webrockk]

Moral equivilency arguments in defense of a mass murdering, despot revolutionary?...seems an attempt to explain away the left's fascination and admiration?

Mao was a great guy too, huh? Lenin? Stalin?

 

[Geo Patric]

love it when conservatives bring up the moral equivalency argument....

read again. no one claimed Che was "a great guy". You like simplicity. You feel more comfortable with a balck and white world. people do bad things. people do good things. sometimes, people are capable of both.

governments do good things. government do bad things. sometimes governments are capable of both.

the issue is not the moral equivalency of any group, but The Real Che. The REAL Che did good and bad things... he did them in just cause. WE happened to be the target (in part) of that cause because we were doing bad things in propping up an oppressive tyrant puppet government after having helped topple the legitimate, democratically elected one. we can compare HIS cause and his methods with those of others to come to a conclusion as to the relative merits of the good and bad.

i know... you do not believe in moral relativity because everything YOU do is good because you do it and god approves of you.

but rational people do, in fact use comparisons all the time.

geo.

 

[Khayembii Communique]

Mao was a great guy too, huh? Lenin? Stalin?

Lenin was awesome!

 

[Gipper]

Like hell. He should've stayed exiled. The czars weren't the most benevolent individuals, but he sure wasn't a whole lot better. The USSR also was set back decades upon his rule.

 

[Khayembii Communique]

The czars weren't the most benevolent individuals, but he sure wasn't a whole lot better.

No, he was a ton better.

The USSR also was set back decades upon his rule.

1. lol @ "his rule".
2. No it wasn't.

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

Teabaggers are IDIOTS.

Ironic.

The movement has no goals, no clear objective, no clear issues, no clear or realistic stances, no leaders, and no clear plan for achieving the goals they dont have.

It's a grass roots movement that is tired of big government, high taxes, and government spending.


The fact you don't get it, doesn't make us the idiots. :shrug:

The teabagger movement is a way for pissed off Republicans to get together and legitimize each other's feelings of being wronged because, lets face it, being beaten by a brother with the middle name Hussein was pretty damn left field for the Republicans.

You forgot to call us homophones....


I'm a libertarian, and a tea party folk. You claim we are pissed off yet here you are mouth foaming with vulgar immaturity simply because a group of people disagree with your statist ideals.



You accuse us of racism, and other lies to try to legitimize your illegitimate complaints. It's embarrassing. Please try to control yourself.

 

[Geo Patric]

"homophones"

geo.

 

[Hoplite]

It's a grass roots movement that is tired of big government, high taxes, and government spending.

Except almost none of them really get what "big government" actually means and they dont have high taxes.

Grass roots or not, the movement is like a small yappy dog that just bull rushes everything it sees. People bitch about things but I dont see any realistic solutions coming out of the tea pot.

The fact you don't get it, doesn't make us the idiots. :shrug:

Well, when you're trying to appeal to the masses, having people understand you is kinda important.

I'm a libertarian, and a tea party folk. You claim we are pissed off yet here you are mouth foaming with vulgar immaturity simply because a group of people disagree with your statist ideals.

Disagree all you want, but I think the vast majority of teabaggers (present company excluded) are genuinely stupid people. Try talking to them about politics and you end up listening to a rant about "the guv-ment" or about how Obama is Hitler or some similar nonsense.

I've been to two teabagger rallies, looked at their websites, talked to dozens of them, spoken with them online, and I can see why this movement is what it is; a political joke.

I have zero respect for people who want to feel like they're actually doing something but know next to nothing about what they're complaining. I posted a thread a while back after I met teabaggers at one of their own rallies.

"So what are you protesting?"
"Taxes, they're too high!"
"Oh, which taxes?"
"The taxes on the middle class."
"No I mean which actual specific taxes are too high?"
"Well..y'know..the ones that are on stuff we need."
"Like?"
"Google it!"

You accuse us of racism, and other lies to try to legitimize your illegitimate complaints. It's embarrassing. Please try to control yourself.

Where exactly did I accuse you of racism?

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

Except almost none of them really get what "big government" actually means and they dont have high taxes.

Really? How do you know this. There are about 50 people here at DP that consider themselves part of the tea party, most of them can articulate thier views as well if not better than you.

Grass roots or not, the movement is like a small yappy dog that just bull rushes everything it sees. People bitch about things but I dont see any realistic solutions coming out of the tea pot.

Actually that sounds more like you. The tea party is a threat to the statist.

Well, when you're trying to appeal to the masses, having people understand you is kinda important.

If you are honest you understand. What positions do I hold that you are unsure of?

When people like you who disagree with movement reduce yourself into vulgar nonsense, who do you think sounds like the idiot? the "Teabagger" or you the mouth foaming partisan hack who instead of making an intelligent argument, well mouth foams?

Disagree all you want, but I think the vast majority of teabaggers (present company excluded) are genuinely stupid people. Try talking to them about politics and you end up listening to a rant about "the guv-ment" or about how Obama is Hitler or some similar nonsense.

Is this what the msnbc told you or are you going to claim like so many lefties here at attending a tea party. :roll:

btw, can you please link to me to you somewhere on the internet lamenting all the bush chimp hitler shoot the troops signs the left used during the anti-war demonstrations.

I've been to two teabagger rallies, looked at their websites, talked to dozens of them, spoken with them online, and I can see why this movement is what it is; a political joke.

Oh boy, I find it funny how all you left wingers have been to more tea party events than anything else over the life of being here at DP.

Which two did you attend? what dates? Name two of the speakers from each. No googling. I may be able to tell by http refs, via the proper channels....


GO.....

I have zero respect for people who want to feel like they're actually doing something but know next to nothing about what they're complaining. I posted a thread a while back after I met teabaggers at one of their own rallies.

I find big mouths who use vulgar terms to describe people who wish for smaller government, lower taxes, and more accountable representatives as people worthy of absolutely no respect. So you keep on with your vulgarity as if you think it makes you seem intelligent. I'll tell you bluntly, it makes you look foolish and only shows that we are indeed a threat and your lack of intelligent response to our 3 basic tenants and substitution of mouth foaming shows us who the actual people are who know "next to nothing"....


It's poetic in its irony the way some of you mouth foam over patriotic Americans redressing government.

"So what are you protesting?"
"Taxes, they're too high!"
"Oh, which taxes?"
"The taxes on the middle class."
"No I mean which actual specific taxes are too high?"
"Well..y'know..the ones that are on stuff we need."
"Like?"
"Google it!"

Lie. You made this up. Sorry. I've been far more engaging with you on specifics, to reduce me to your made up story to smear my movement again, makes you look far more the mouthfoamer than the mythical people supposedly talked to at some unkown tea party...

Where exactly did I accuse you of racism?

Oh so you weren't infering the tea party as racist when you stated ", lets face it, being beaten by a brother with the middle name Hussein"?


Please. And you call us "stupid". :shrug:

 

[Hoplite]

Really? How do you know this. There are about 50 people here at DP that consider themselves part of the tea party, most of them can articulate thier views as well if not better than you.

Because I've never seen someone who identified as a teabagger speak in such a way as to make me think "Ok, he has at least a grasp on the basic ideas of government." Waving around signs that say "KEEP THE GOVERNMENT OUT OF MEDICARE" is the more common mentality I see.

I WANT to see something different other than an attitude of sheer ignorance but as much as I've looked, I find ALMOST no examples.

Actually that sounds more like you. The tea party is a threat to the statist.

What realistic solutions has the teabagger movement advanced?

If you are honest you understand. What positions do I hold that you are unsure of?

Translation "Disagreeing with us means you are stupid"

What is the teabaggers' ultimate goal? What are they trying to achieve and what are they doing to achieve it?

When people like you who disagree with movement reduce yourself into vulgar nonsense, who do you think sounds like the idiot? the "Teabagger" or you the mouth foaming partisan hack who instead of making an intelligent argument, well mouth foams?

The "teabagger" label was used first by FOX's Griff Jenkins, he coined the phrase and the teabaggers themselves used it for about a month before they figured out "Oops! The noble-ness of our cause DOESNT over-ride the quasi-sexual meaning of the term!" I use the term that was originally used BY the group itself. I mean we dont want to be too PC, now do we?

btw, can you please link to me to you somewhere on the internet lamenting all the bush chimp hitler shoot the troops signs the left used during the anti-war demonstrations.

I do think those were over the top. I only attended one anti-war protest and I was carrying a red flag at the time

Which two did you attend? what dates? Name two of the speakers from each. No googling. I may be able to tell by http refs, via the proper channels....

I'd rather not in a public forum, the last two that I attended were in my hometown. If you want me to PM them to you, I can do that.

I find big mouths who use vulgar terms to describe people who wish for smaller government, lower taxes, and more accountable representatives as people worthy of absolutely no respect.

Wanting that is fine, I dont begrudge anyone for wanting these things or even working to realize them. What I DO fault is people basically making a massive nuisance of themselves and throwing the equivalent of public temper tantrums because they didnt win the election and are just angry now and have no solid ideas or plans other than "NO MORE TAXES!"

Lie. You made this up. Sorry. I've been far more engaging with you on specifics, to reduce me to your made up story to smear my movement again, makes you look far more the mouthfoamer than the mythical people supposedly talked to at some unkown tea party...

No, no I really didnt. That's the scary thing.

Granted you've been more articulate about your concerns than most, but it doesnt change the fact that the majority of teabaggers I talk to dont understand the most BASIC functioning of the government.

Oh so you weren't infering the tea party as racist when you stated ", lets face it, being beaten by a brother with the middle name Hussein"?

Actually I wasn't. The election was hyped up as an "in the bag" thing by so many Republicans because, in their words, America was just too racist to elect Obama. I have Republican family who didnt even bother to VOTE on election day because they thought Obama was going to lose so badly.

 

[Sandokan]

Unfortunately, it's not anywhere in that piece at all. It is a complete fabrication, apparently. This is why I don't take you anti-Castro/Che trolls seriously unless you provide links to primary sources.

Yes it is there, you just miss it. Here is the link: The Killing Machine: Che Guevara, from Communist Firebrand to Capitalist Brand: Newsroom: The Independent Institute

arguments in defense of a mass murdering, despot revolutionary?...seems an attempt to explain away the left's fascination and admiration?

Look the type of revolutionary they admired:

In writing about Pedro Valdivia, the conquistador of Chile, Guevara reflected: “He belonged to that special class of men the species produces every so often, in whom a craving for limitless power is so extreme that any suffering to achieve it seems natural.” He might have been describing himself. At every stage of his adult life, his megalomania manifested itself in the predatory urge to take over other people's lives and property, and to abolish their free will.

He ordered his men to rob banks, a decision that he justified in a letter to Enrique Oltuski, a subordinate, in November of 1958: “The struggling masses agree to robbing banks because none of them has a penny in them.” This idea of revolution as a license to re-allocate property as he saw fit led the Marxist Puritan to take over the mansion of an emigrant after the triumph of the revolution. The urge to dispossess others of their property and to claim ownership of others' territory was central to Guevara's politics of raw power. [4]

[4] Alvaro Vargas Llosa, The killing machine, The New Republic, 11/7/2005

 

[Khayembii Communique]

Yes it is there, you just miss it.

Well if it's there then perhaps you can quote directly from the piece. You won't be able to because it's not there. Any idiot can go to the site and Ctrl+F for it and find that it's not there. I even read the whole piece to make sure it wasn't just a difference in translation and it's still nowhere to be found.

Yet on you go, clinging to the delusion that it's in there. Keep quoting your gusano sources (i.e. "The Killing Machine" boy that doesn't sound biased at all!); you've been exposed for the liar you are.