The Real Agenda Is Oh So Apparent

[TheHammer]

The Logan Act.. And no I am NOT sure if he broke any laws. That's why i said he 'may have' and I am calling for an investigation. To find out if any laws were broken. While all you are doing is just calling this a big leftist media/Dem conspiracy to get Trump. And now because Trump has an (R) after his name you want to give him a pass and blame everyone else but him.

Are you afraid of an investigation?

I don't want to give anybody a pass!

So, my question to you is, since you believe an investigation is in order for Flynn, where's your cry for an investigation into who at the FBI put out the felonious leak to the leftist press? We already know that was a crime, you don't know squat about any crime Flynn MAY have committed? It's your partisan bias that's showing here.

 

[TheHammer]

Because he was still a private citizen, and the Obama administration was still setting policy. He was undermining the White House even as it was issuing new sanctions.

#1, you don't know Flynn was conducting foreign policy, and #2 Even if he was, none of it could be implemented until Trump was inaugurated, so where's the problem?

And again: As per usual, the cover-up turns out to do more damage than the crime. He allegedly lied to the White House, Vice President, and the American people. He may have also lied to the FBI about it, which would be a felony.

"MAY BE," right!

Again, wheres your fanatical call for an investigation into WHO in the FBI leaked to the leftist press? Again, we already know that was a crime, you don't know squat yet about any Flynn crime, do you?

Another major issue is that Flynn has been in the pocket of the Kremlin for quite some time now, as indicated not just by that specific call, but lots of communication with Russian officials (possibly including Russian intelligence), but by working for RT, and sitting with Putin at a gala dinner in December 2015.[/QUOTE]

 

[TheHammer]

he displays those traits to a far greater, more reckless, and more dangerous degree, than is normative among world leaders or tolerable, and that is what warrants the proportionate reaction?

Such as? Elaborate please!

 

[TheHammer]

We don't yet know if he actually broke the law.

Flynn was questioned about the calls to the Russian ambassador shortly after the inauguration.

If he told the FBI the same type of lies that he told Mike Pence, then he could be charged with lying to the FBI and/or obstruction of justice.

He can lie all he wants to the VP, that's not a crime. Lying to law enforcement? That's a felony.

Needless to say, this would not be the first time that the cover-up was worse than the offense.

Again, "MAY BE."

Where's your outcry to investigate uncover and prosecute the mole that leaked the classified information to the leftist press? We already know that was a crime, and so far you know squat about any Flynn crime, but your only outcry is for an investigation into Flynn, how come? I bet I know!

 

[TheHammer]

It's in the same location as Trump's outrage about the DNC and Clinton campaign hacks. Neither of which produced felony charges, by the way.



Nope, not happy about that. Or the US giving the nod to the Iranian coup that put the Shah into power. Or the US backing the nullification of elections in Vietnam, and backing a string of coups and authoritarian goons.

That's not a partisan thing. I'm opposed to any nation interfering in any sovereign elections.



Yes, definitely against that. Assassinating foreign leaders is an absolutely terrible idea.

All options in dealing with brutal authoritarian regimes are bad. The "least bad" option these days is usually to have UN support to do what needs to be done.

Moreover, none of what you're saying justifies Russian interference in US elections -- or in the US government doing absolutely nothing about foreign interference in US elections.

I didn't say what the Russians have done was justified by what the United States has done and neither did Trump. I'm simply pointing out that Trump was correct when he pointed out that America also had it's KILLERS, to the outrage of the leftist hacks that look for any and all excuses to bring down this President and even America.

 

[AlbqOwl]

Well he is getting EOs blocked by the Judiciary, an appointment blocked by the Congress, a cabinet member who had to resign, upset foreign relations, pissed off the intelligence community, etc. all within that first month. I mean, there's already measurement on the matter.

EOs blocked by ultra left wing judges that other competent legal authorities are saying were entirely inappropriate for such judges to do. A judge cannot overturn the law of the land. According to the Constitution and the law, only duly elected representatives of the people can do that. All Presidents have had people resign for this or that.

I can't remember my source--I think it was Quora?--but the count of cabinet turnover for some other Presidents is:
Ronald Reagan - 28
George W Bush - 27.
Bill Clinton - 24.
Harry Truman 23.
Barack Obama, Theodore Roosevelt, Richard Nixon - 20.

All Presidents also make rookie mistakes. Trump had a very chaotic roll out of his travel ban that could have been avoided if they had thought it through better ahead of time. Ditto Obama's roll out of Obamacare requiring myriad executive orders on his part to correct some immediate disastrous effects on people.

Obama focused on healthcare reform first instead of on the more critical financial reforms that never got accomplished. As a result, the economy floundered his entire eight years and that put Trump into office.

IMO Trump is making the same rookie mistake focusing on immigration reform before financial reforms. Hopefully he won't flounder on that for the next four years, but if he does, it is four years and he's out.

Fair minded people who love their country more than their loyalty to a political party or ideology, whether they voted for President Trump or not, will stand back and at least allow him to get his cabinet into place and get his sea legs under him before tearing him apart.

 

[Visbek]

#1, you don't know flynn was conducting foreign policy, and #2 even if he was, none of it could be implemented until trump was inaugurated, so where's the problem?

Flynn was allegedly conducting foreign policy, by discussing sanctions with the Russian ambassador.

If he had made that call on January 21st 2017, it would not be a problem. Since he jumped the gun, he quite likely violated the Logan Act. It's rarely prosecuted, but still a violation of the law. And again, the real issues are a) the cover-up, b) that the campaign had far too many contacts with Russia, c) that the Russians now have far too much influence on the White House.

"may be," right!

...yes, the public doesn't know what the FBI asked him, or what he answered. I'm pointing out to you that if he did lie to the FBI -- which is hardly unreasonable, given that we know he lied to the VP -- then that's a felony.

Again, wheres your fanatical call for an investigation into who in the fbi leaked to the leftist press? Again, we already know that was a crime, you don't know squat yet about any flynn crime, do you?

I have no problems with any legitimate investigation into leaks.

I've never objected to leakers like Scooter Libby or Daniel Ellsberg or Chelsea Manning facing the law, as long as it's a fair trial (which is not always the case). At the same time, I get far less upset when the leaker reveals information about illegal activity.

If anything, it's Trump who is the blatant hypocrite here. He was perfectly happy with hackers who leaked emails from the DNC and Clinton campaign (neither of which revealed any felonies), and literally said he hoped Russia would hack the US looking for Clinton emails, but hates it when his administration is the target.

I also know that threatening the intelligence community and press with prosecution is not going to stop leaks. All it's going to do is further alienate White House staff, make them even more afraid to communicate with each other, and further undermine relations with the intelligence community and FBI. The idea that you can stop anonymous untraceable communication in this day and age, by the way, is quite amusing.

What Trump really needs to do is get his act together, and realize he needs to win over these different constituencies ASAP. The best way to reduce leaks is to win the loyalty of the bureaucracy, and you can't do that when you're attacking them on a daily basis.

 

[Visbek]

I didn't say what the Russians have done was justified by what the United States has done and neither did Trump. I'm simply pointing out that Trump was correct when he pointed out that America also had it's KILLERS, to the outrage of the leftist hacks that look for any and all excuses to bring down this President and even America.

Ya know, you may not be a Republican partisan, but it sure sounds like you love yourself some Trump.

You are, in fact, trying to distract or otherwise draw attention away from Flynn, and the Trump-Russian connections, with your statements.

It's not clear that you are equally outraged over the DNC or Clinton hacks.

It is also downright shocking for the President of the US, who insists that he wants to make America great again and claims to be a patriot, is morally equivalent to a violent autocrat like Putin. Of course, as far as the right is concerned, leftist criticism of the actions of the US government is proof positive that those leftists hate America, but it's A-OK when a right-winger or fellow traveler does it. How fascinating.

 

[Ikari]

EOs blocked by ultra left wing judges that other competent legal authorities are saying were entirely inappropriate for such judges to do. A judge cannot overturn the law of the land. According to the Constitution and the law, only duly elected representatives of the people can do that.

The standard partisan knee-jerk here. Trump can take to the SCOTUS...or is that "too liberal" as well? lol

For better or for worse, there is judicial review. It's part of our checks and balances, and while the Court cannot write or enforce law, they can strike down law or enforcement as unconstitutional. Which was the case here.

All Presidents have had people resign for this or that.

I can't remember my source--I think it was Quora?--but the count of cabinet turnover for some other Presidents is:
Ronald Reagan - 28
George W Bush - 27.
Bill Clinton - 24.
Harry Truman 23.
Barack Obama, Theodore Roosevelt, Richard Nixon - 20.

How many have had them kicked out over possible law violations in the first 3 weeks? lol

All Presidents also make rookie mistakes. Trump had a very chaotic roll out of his travel ban that could have been avoided if they had thought it through better ahead of time. Ditto Obama's roll out of Obamacare requiring myriad executive orders on his part to correct some immediate disastrous effects on people.

Obama focused on healthcare reform first instead of on the more critical financial reforms that never got accomplished. As a result, the economy floundered his entire eight years and that put Trump into office.

IMO Trump is making the same rookie mistake focusing on immigration reform before financial reforms. Hopefully he won't flounder on that for the next four years, but if he does, it is four years and he's out.

How many made all those "rookie mistakes" within the first 3 weeks? Who had EOs blocked within the first 3 weeks? Who lost cabinet members within the first 3 weeks? Who upset international relationships withing the first 3 weeks?

Fair minded people who love their country more than their loyalty to a political party or ideology, whether they voted for President Trump or not, will stand back and at least allow him to get his cabinet into place and get his sea legs under him before tearing him apart.

Some Patriot Act level propaganda here. I'm not going to let him "get his see legs" if the Republic is destroyed in the resulting typhoon. That's stupid. Get ship-shape, or clear out and let a competent jerk take over.

 

[AlbqOwl]

The standard partisan knee-jerk here. Trump can take to the SCOTUS...or is that "too liberal" as well? lol

For better or for worse, there is judicial review. It's part of our checks and balances, and while the Court cannot write or enforce law, they can strike down law or enforcement as unconstitutional. Which was the case here.



How many have had them kicked out over possible law violations in the first 3 weeks? lol



How many made all those "rookie mistakes" within the first 3 weeks? Who had EOs blocked within the first 3 weeks? Who lost cabinet members within the first 3 weeks? Who upset international relationships withing the first 3 weeks?



Some Patriot Act level propaganda here. I'm not going to let him "get his see legs" if the Republic is destroyed in the resulting typhoon. That's stupid. Get ship-shape, or clear out and let a competent jerk take over.

And some might say that it is evidence of strong ethics that a cabinet member would be ousted in three weeks instead of allowing unethical behavior to continue.

 

[yankintx]

I’ll say it again, I’m no Donald Trump fan. I didn’t vote for him and I think he’s a radical egotistical narcissist. And I despise Hillary Clinton and didn’t vote for her either.


Having said that, I just want to say that as a true nonpartisan, (I despise political parties), I’m appalled at what I see going on politically. It’s oh so apparent that leftist media and even America’s security and intelligence agencies are hell bent on bringing this President down.


If an incoming National Security Advisor talking to a foreign nations leaders before he actually takes the position officially, is a crime, there’s something screwed up with the law.


When Democrats, major leftist media and the neo-cons John McCain and Lindsey Graham scream bloody murder for investigations and hearings to attempt to crucify Flynn and Trump because of Flynn’s so-called crime, and nary a word is mentioned about the real crime whereby somebody in the intelligence agencies leaked the classified material to the media, then priorities are ass backwards and or the only REAL agenda is to embarrass and bring down Trump.


It’s disgusting and enraging and it would be sad if it weren’t so damned pathetic!

The President needs to act the part, he gets no sympathy from me.

 

[TheHammer]

Flynn was allegedly conducting foreign policy, by discussing sanctions with the Russian ambassador.

So what? What’s wrong with an incoming NSA discussing sanctions with the Russians?

What was the person doing that leaked that information to the leftist media?

If he had made that call on January 21st 2017, it would not be a problem. Since he jumped the gun, he quite likely violated the Logan Act. It's rarely prosecuted, but still a violation of the law. And again, the real issues are a) the cover-up, b) that the campaign had far too many contacts with Russia, c) that the Russians now have far too much influence on the White House.

So you can’t explain WHY it was a violation of the Logan Act, right? Where’s the crime?

How do you know the Russians have influence in the White House? Are you individually speculating with your own assessment of the situation, or are you watching and reading the enemies and haters of the President like NBC, ABC, CBS, MSNBC and CNN and the New York Times and other left-wing newspapers?

 

[TheHammer]

Ya know, you may not be a Republican partisan, but it sure sounds like you love yourself some Trump.

Well, actually I think Trump is a world class BSer, a incurable narcissist, a horrible speaker, an absurd exaggerator, embellisher, self promoter and nobody, but nobody will ever love Trump more than Trump.

I’m just appalled At the national mainstream media’s ungodly bias and hatred directed at the person that the majority of the United States elected t o be their President. Every negative thing Trump is, the biased leftist media is 10 fold more. They’re outrageous elitist anti-American scumb.

, in fact, trying to distract or otherwise draw attention away from Flynn, and the Trump-Russian connections, with your statements.

On the contrary! I couldn’t do that if I had a personal army. The MSM has Flynn and Trump painted all over America and calling it BIGGER than Watergate, Worse than Pearl Harbor and 9-11 and several other absurdities.

I’m simply pointing out the MSM bias and absurdities and total hatred and unfair play directed at the American President and your willful ignorance of the REAL crime being the FBI leaking classified information to the MSM.

It is also downright shocking for the President of the US, who insists that he wants to make America great again and claims to be a patriot, is morally equivalent to a violent autocrat like Putin. Of course, as far as the right is concerned, leftist criticism of the actions of the US government is proof positive that those leftists hate America, but it's A-OK when a right-winger or fellow traveler does it. How fascinating.

As far as I AND YOU know, Trump has had no deal making contact with any of the Russians, no conspiring with Russia’s hacking. Obama administration and Hillary Clinton tried to “reset” relations with Russia, made a unbelievablly stupid deal with Iran, (some of the worst and most guilty supporters of murder worldwide) and the lefty media cheered that as some kind of great accomplishment. It’d be humorous if it weren’t so pathetic!

 

[Tanngrisnir]

EOs blocked by ultra left wing judges that other competent legal authorities are saying were entirely inappropriate for such judges to do.

LOL! Who, exactly, are these 'ultra left wing judges' and what makes them 'ultra left wing'?

Please be very specific.

 

[jimithyashford]

Such as? Elaborate please!

I do not think you have actually answered the question in my reply. I will gladly answer whatever questions you have once you have given a genuine answer to mine, because knowing your mindset on the topic is rather important to discern before I try and make any kind of persuasive case.

I am asking you if it is possible that these are the reasons for the reaction you disapprove of? Are you willing to entertain the notion that Trump is, at least in these people's perception if not in actual fact, a unique threat and thus deserving of particular and pointed opposition?

If you are not willing to entertain that these actions are a response to a genuine and dire concerns regarding this man and his leadership, and that they can only possibly be a disingenuous partisan witch hunt, then we really have nothing more to talk about.

So, is it possible that these might be warranted reactions to perceived threats and dire concerns, or could it only possibly be some cheap partisan theatrics or political hit job?

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

I don't believe that for a second.

"if you don't 100 agree with me you must be a partisan"!!!!

 

[TheGoverness]

"if you don't 100 agree with me you must be a partisan"!!!!

Nice strawman. You come up with that yourself?

 

[ReverendHellh0und]

Nice strawman. You come up with that yourself?

That's not a strawman, that's how you all operate. He made a pretty objective comment, you suggested he was a partisan, why?

 

[TheGoverness]

That's not a strawman, that's how you all operate.

Oh, whatever. :roll:

He made a pretty objective comment, you suggested he was a partisan, why?

No he didn't. And I suggested he's partidan because he is. Check his other threads.

 

[Geoist]

If an incoming National Security Advisor talking to a foreign nations leaders before he actually takes the position officially, is a crime, there’s something screwed up with the law.

Whether he violated the Logan Act or not depends on what he talked about with the Russians. He wasn't fired for that action, he was fired because he lied.

 

[Geoist]

What General Flynn did isn't a crime.

You don't know what he did.

 

[Visbek]

So what? What’s wrong with an incoming NSA discussing sanctions with the Russians?

I've already told you.

Flynn was still a private citizen, and Obama was still President. By discussing sanctions with the Russian ambassador, Flynn was negotiating with a foreign power without being authorized to do so by the federal government. He was undermining the Obama administration, and that's a violation of the Logan Act.

Plus, it is looking more and more like he did lie to the FBI, which as I've mentioned is a felony. It's far worse than violating the Logan Act.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...63470bf0401_story.html?utm_term=.683141769c60

What was the person doing that leaked that information to the leftist media?

They leaked information about Flynn. Is there something about that which I can help you understand?

So you can’t explain WHY it was a violation of the Logan Act, right? Where’s the crime?

I've explained it several times. NPR has a decent write-up on it.
What Is The Logan Act? It Probably Won't Be Used, But Michael Flynn Could Still Be In Trouble : NPR

How do you know the Russians have influence in the White House? Are you individually speculating with your own assessment of the situation, or are you watching and reading the enemies and haters of the President like NBC, ABC, CBS, MSNBC and CNN and the New York Times and other left-wing newspapers?

I'm making my own assessment. It's about 50% based on the words and deeds of Trump and other officials, and 50% media reports. Many of those media reports are quite solid, such as the evidence that Manafort was working with Ukrainian politicians who were basically Russian proxies, or claims about Flynn's contacts to Russian government figures.

Spit as much venom as you like at the press, that doesn't prove that they are wrong or lying. In fact, they've been fairly accurate about this situation (and many others). If the media hadn't reported on it, Flynn might still be National Security Advisor, despite lying to Pence and the FBI, and apparently being in Putin's back pocket. It is really, really hard to see how him staying in office was good for the nation.

 

[Geoist]

What was the person doing that leaked that information to the leftist media?

FYI, its comments like these that make people not believe you when you say you are 'nonpartisan.' You keep saying 'the leftist media.' Should we have reason to believe you go after any of the 'far-right media' with such vigor?

 

[AlbqOwl]

LOL! Who, exactly, are these 'ultra left wing judges' and what makes them 'ultra left wing'?

Please be very specific.

What makes them ultra left wing is that they never render a decision or judgment that did not support left wing positions or stances and seem to have no sense of what the role of the judiciary was intended to be.

 

[Tanngrisnir]

What makes them ultra left wing is that they never render a decision or judgment that did not support left wing positions or stances and seem to have no sense of what the role of the judiciary was intended to be.

But, of course, that doesn't answer what I asked you, it's not backed up by any evidence whatsoever and simply reveals your ignorance of the judges in question and the court.

Hey, thanks for trying, though.