RealmOfThePureForms
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So here are my questions to you.
1. How can you say God is responsible for something (free will) which he is incapable of creating himself without the help of some other being?
2. What makes him God if he is incapable of creating free will by himself?
3. Where does this God get the right to judge the beings that were affected by an outside source (evil) that God has no control over creating.
A problem that has been floating around in my head for awhile, I'd like to hear an answer if any religious person can give one. Thanks.
i believe in tranquility said:Well a "christian" response would be: God gets the "right" to judge the being because in the "religion" God created all beings. But what does this have to do with Jesus......why don't you ask a muslim or a jew these questions. If you were a christian, I dont understand why you don't have questions about Jesus.
I am a self-made Christian, and if a home made philosopher.RealmOfThePureForms said:God is all good.
That means evil came from outside of God.
Good + Evil = Free Will
Without good you cannot define evil. Without evil you cannot define good.
If only good existed, then there would be no free will.
So if God is incapable of creating evil, and God needed evil to give human beings free will, then whatever created evil is what defined God as good and what gave humans free will.
I'd like to hear an answer if any religious person can give one. Thanks.
'm not asking jews or muslims because I know less about their religions than I do the Christian one. I am not a Christian basher but my question has still not been answered at all and applies to all religions that claim their god is all good with a right to judge all mankind.
God does not have the right to judge a being that is affected by something for which God cannot create himself (evil).
Infact God needs the outside source of evil just to define himself as good! So God cannot even define himself as all good unless the outside source of evil is present for which he can compare himself against.
RealmOfThePureForms said:1. How can you say God is responsible for something (free will) which he is incapable of creating himself without the help of some other being?
2. What makes him God if he is incapable of creating free will by himself?
3. Where does this God get the right to judge the beings that were affected by an outside source (evil) that God has no control over creating.
You make three assumptions here to support your logic:RealmOfThePureForms said:God is all good.
That means evil came from outside of God.
RealmOfThePureForms said:Might as well start my forum career on the most controversial subject out there. :mrgreen:
I used to be a Christian. Now I realize that there are major problems with organized religious beliefs. Philosophy helped me realize this. But when I finally admitted it to myself my mind opened up and I began to persue the thoughts that I had previously blocked from my mind for fear of the true answers.
There is one major problem all the worlds major religions share in my humble opinion. That is good and evil. I will stick to the Christian God since I know Christianity better than I know any other religion, but it applies to Islam and Judiasm as well.
So my question for the Christians is first to open your mind and answer the following truthfully and second to refute it if you possibly can using LOGIC.
God is all good.
That means evil came from outside of God.
Good + Evil = Free Will
Without good you cannot define evil. Without evil you cannot define good.
If only good existed, then there would be no free will.
So if God is incapable of creating evil, and God needed evil to give human beings free will, then whatever created evil is what defined God as good and what gave humans free will.
So here are my questions to you.
1. How can you say God is responsible for something (free will) which he is incapable of creating himself without the help of some other being?
2. What makes him God if he is incapable of creating free will by himself?
3. Where does this God get the right to judge the beings that were affected by an outside source (evil) that God has no control over creating.
A problem that has been floating around in my head for awhile, I'd like to hear an answer if any religious person can give one. Thanks.
i believe in tranquility said:donkey...i just going to ask some fun questions for a fellow "christian" it seems...lol
1. Do you honestly take the two Genesis creation stories literally?
2. Where does it say literally "Lucifer" in any of the creation stories?.. I dont recall that reference.
Something to keep in mind: In Hebrew text (the original text of the Old Testament), the word Adam trasnaltes to: the human race. And the word Eve translates to life, so if you keep that in mind when you read this text, it comes to: the "human race" picked the friut, and "life" sprung forth (eve eating the fruit).
I take all in the Bible literally, to not do so would be ridiculous (for christians anyways).
Lucifer was the serpent in the creation story. In Revelations, Lucifer is referred to as a dragon, which can also be a serpent.
According to Genesis, Eve came BEFORE the fruit was eaten.
Donkey1499 said:I take all in the Bible literally, to not do so would be ridiculous (for christians anyways).
Lucifer was the serpent in the creation story. In Revelations, Lucifer is referred to as a dragon, which can also be a serpent.
According to Genesis, Eve came BEFORE the fruit was eaten.
Donkey1499 said:God told Adam to not eat from the tree of knowledge, because then Adam would be like God and know good and evil; whereas before, Adam was like a child, only knowing what God told him. But he ate the fruit and then became aware of things that he didn't need to know. And for that he was punished. This all right there in Genesis. in the first two chapters. God CAN do evil, but he CHOOSES not to do evil. The Ten Commandments also shows where God defined the difference between Good and Evil, thus showing once again that God knows evil (therefore he created it) ands lets us know good from evil, since we now know what evil is.
Before the fruit, Adam and Eve only did what they were told to do, and God didn't say to only listen to Him. So that loophole, Lucifer played on (at the time Lucifer was a high ranking angel of God) since he envied humans and was jealous and angry at God for giving control of the earth to humans; of which Lucifer thought humans to be inferior (Lucifer was both proud and arrogant). So Lucifer tempted Eve into eating the fruit, thus teeing off God. But something happened that Lucifer didn't forsee. Eve snitched (only because Adam snitched on her; it was the first blame game)...... and now I just lost my train of thought. Oh well.
RealmOfThePureForms said:Might as well start my forum career on the most controversial subject out there. :mrgreen:
I used to be a Christian. Now I realize that there are major problems with organized religious beliefs. Philosophy helped me realize this. But when I finally admitted it to myself my mind opened up and I began to persue the thoughts that I had previously blocked from my mind for fear of the true answers.
There is one major problem all the worlds major religions share in my humble opinion. That is good and evil. I will stick to the Christian God since I know Christianity better than I know any other religion, but it applies to Islam and Judiasm as well.
So my question for the Christians is first to open your mind and answer the following truthfully and second to refute it if you possibly can using LOGIC.
God is all good.
That means evil came from outside of God.
Good + Evil = Free Will
Without good you cannot define evil. Without evil you cannot define good.
If only good existed, then there would be no free will.
So if God is incapable of creating evil, and God needed evil to give human beings free will, then whatever created evil is what defined God as good and what gave humans free will.
So here are my questions to you.
1. How can you say God is responsible for something (free will) which he is incapable of creating himself without the help of some other being?Code:Code:
Is that to mean our ability to be "steered from inside " in our own direction, rather than being " pulled or pushed " in a direction dictated by an other .Is it about our ability to create also rather than just being created .Which makes us capable of sin { tresspasses against others }Which will make you say " does a victom of my actions make it a sin or criminal " ? Yes ,yes it does . A good example could be if I swerved a car off the road to hit a person compared to backing a car up and running over someone ,is the crime my driving or is the crime my tresspass against someone and if so why is one better than the other or is it ? TRUTH.....TRUTH...TRUTH was I being careful when backed up ? NO or I would not have run over someone . TRUTH in place of stupidity or religion in place of what you have ...do you have a name for it yet ?
I have ask this ,is God the problem or are you the problem ???
YOUR WELCOME.
:roll:
iron butterfly said:RealmOfThePureForms said:Might as well start my forum career on the most controversial subject out there. :mrgreen:
I used to be a Christian. Now I realize that there are major problems with organized religious beliefs. Philosophy helped me realize this. But when I finally admitted it to myself my mind opened up and I began to persue the thoughts that I had previously blocked from my mind for fear of the true answers.
There is one major problem all the worlds major religions share in my humble opinion. That is good and evil. I will stick to the Christian God since I know Christianity better than I know any other religion, but it applies to Islam and Judiasm as well.
So my question for the Christians is first to open your mind and answer the following truthfully and second to refute it if you possibly can using LOGIC.
God is all good.
That means evil came from outside of God.
Good + Evil = Free Will
Without good you cannot define evil. Without evil you cannot define good.
If only good existed, then there would be no free will.
So if God is incapable of creating evil, and God needed evil to give human beings free will, then whatever created evil is what defined God as good and what gave humans free will.
So here are my questions to you.
1. How can you say God is responsible for something (free will) which he is incapable of creating himself without the help of some other being?Code:Code:
Is that to mean our ability to be "steered from inside " in our own direction, rather than being " pulled or pushed " in a direction dictated by an other .Is it about our ability to create also rather than just being created .Which makes us capable of sin { tresspasses against others }Which will make you say " does a victom of my actions make it a sin or criminal " ? Yes ,yes it does . A good example could be if I swerved a car off the road to hit a person compared to backing a car up and running over someone ,is the crime my driving or is the crime my tresspass against someone and if so why is one better than the other or is it ? TRUTH.....TRUTH...TRUTH was I being careful when backed up ? NO or I would not have run over someone . TRUTH in place of stupidity or religion in place of what you have ...do you have a name for it yet ?
I have ask this ,is God the problem or are you the problem ???
YOUR WELCOME.
:roll:
This is not my problem, this is a fundamental problem with monotheistic religions that believe in all powerful all good God in a world where evil also exists.
Alex makes my point perfect.
You totally missed the point iron butterfly. My arguement is not against the actions man chooses to make, it is against the very concept of free will. In order to have free will you must have the ability to choose to do both good and evil actions.
The whole free will arguement comes down to one single problem which no christian, muslim, or jew can answer.
If God created evil in order to give his creation free will, then he created something contrary to his holy nature making him no longer an all good God making him unworthy of worship.
OR
If God is incapable of creating evil because it is contrary to his nature then he cannot hold his creation accountable for using their free will because God would not have had control over all of the elements of that free will to begin with.
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