The Pope Said It Best

[CriticalThought]

The point is Jesus did not list every sin, wasn't His purpose so to say that because he did not expressly say anything about homosexuality as an argument for it is quite frankly, ignorant.

He did not have to do so. The whole love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as you love yourself kind of covered it. Homosexuality does not violate those commandments but rape does. Your attempts to equate the two was obvious and disgraceful.

 

[CriticalThought]

What do you mean? Homosexuality is in the Bible.

Jesus did not write the Bible.

Yeah He did. That's why there is such a thing called, excommunication.

And the repeated warnings against disobedience to God.

Post one quote by Jesus specifically on homosexuality.

 

[joko104]

The Catholic Church certainly does not hesitate to lobby politicians or campaign. How many priests have they put on television claiming their companies don't to comply with law concerning contraceptives?

 

[tosca1]

Jesus did not write the Bible. Post one quote by Jesus specifically on homosexuality.

The apostles were given authority by Jesus/God to teach. Therefore, all those quotes given above about homosexuality came from God.

Introduction:
Many people think the teachings presented by apostles or prophets, especially Paul, are somehow less authoritative than what Jesus Himself personally spoke.


To understand the authority of the apostles' teachings, we must understand who apostles were, the nature and purpose of their work, and how they became apostles. In particular, we must consider whether or not Paul possessed the qualifications and authority of an apostle equally with the other apostles.

Apostleship involved all the following things:

Apostles were especially chosen and called personally by God to be apostles.
Specifically, Paul was personally chosen and called by Jesus to be an apostle.

Apostles had to be eyewitnesses of the resurrected Christ.
One special duty of apostles was to give testimony of Jesus' resurrection whereby others could believe. To do this, each one had to have personally witnessed Christ alive after the resurrection. Jesus' appearance to Paul was exceptional; nevertheless he did see Jesus alive, so he was just as qualified to do this work as were other apostles.

Apostles were empowered by the Spirit to do miraculous signs to confirm that they were inspired by the Spirit.

Authority of Apostle's Teaching, Especially Paul

 

[tosca1]

Still on the authority given to the Apostles,


Matthew 16:19
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed4 in heaven.”

Explanation: In this verse, Jesus is speaking directly to the apostle Peter and indirectly to the other apostles. Jesus' words meant that Peter would have the right to enter the kingdom himself, that he would have general authority symbolized by the possession of the keys, and that preaching the gospel would be the means of opening the kingdom of heaven to all believers and shutting it against unbelievers. The book of Acts shows us this process at work. By his sermon on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:14-40), Peter opened the door of the kingdom for the first time. The expressions “bind” and “loose” were common to Jewish legal phraseology meaning to declare something forbidden or to declare it allowed.

Peter and the other disciples were to continue Christ’s work on earth in preaching the gospel and declaring God's will to men, and they were armed with the same authority as He possessed.

In Matthew 18:18, there is also a definite reference to the binding and loosing in the context of church discipline. The apostles do not usurp Christ's lordship and authority over individual believers and their eternal destiny, but they do exercise the authority to discipline and, if necessary, excommunicate disobedient church members.
Read more: What does the Bible mean by binding and loosing?

 

[jmotivator]

If it wasn't part of gods plan, there wouldn't be any homosexuality.

Who are any of these people to question or even affirm gods plan? God doesn't need anyones permission.

By that argument all sin is God's plan so we should all go break the commandments as God wanted us to.

 

[specklebang]

It means that you can, not that you should.

It's a diabolically clever plan.

By that argument all sin is God's plan so we should all go break the commandments as God wanted us to.

 

[nota bene]

The Catholic Church certainly does not hesitate to lobby politicians or campaign. How many priests have they put on television claiming their companies don't to comply with law concerning contraceptives?

I give up--how many?

 

[tosca1]

More quotes on authority given to Apostles, as provided by brothers.

Go into all the world....teaching them to observe all that I have taught you. Matt 28

You will be my witnesses in Jerusalem....to the end of the earth. Acts 1

He [Paul] is a chosen instrument ... to carry my name before the Gentiles. Acts 9

 

[CriticalThought]

The apostles were given authority by Jesus/God to teach. Therefore, all those quotes given above about homosexuality came from God.



Authority of Apostle's Teaching, Especially Paul

Uh huh. I am aware of and reject this notion. Paul just recycled Aristotle's philosophy and rebranded Christianity. By the time Romans accepted Christianity it had been corrupted and morphed to the point that even Jeses would not recognize it. But meh, whatever you want to believe.

 

[davidtaylorjr]

He did not have to do so. The whole love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as you love yourself kind of covered it. Homosexuality does not violate those commandments but rape does. Your attempts to equate the two was obvious and disgraceful.

Jesus didn't throw out all of the other commands. He did say those two are above all, but part of loving God with all of your heart means fleeing sin. Since homosexuality is a sin, He would be meaning to flee from that too. Nice try.

 

[CRUE CAB]

If it wasn't part of gods plan, there wouldn't be any homosexuality.

Who are any of these people to question or even affirm gods plan? God doesn't need anyones permission.

Its not part of gods plan. Its called free will. The free will to rebel against gods plan, usually to piss off mommy and daddy.

 

[davidtaylorjr]

If it wasn't part of gods plan, there wouldn't be any homosexuality.

Who are any of these people to question or even affirm gods plan? God doesn't need anyones permission.

God gave Adam and Eve freewill, they decided to rebel bringing the curse of sin into the world.

 

[jmotivator]

It means that you can, not that you should.

It's a diabolically clever plan.

Well, that's the point. Church is there to tell you what it believes God wants you to do among all the infinite choices granted by free will. Most churches believe homosexual acts are not among those acts that God wants you to engage in.

 

[specklebang]

God's plan is to give you what seems like free will. Using free will, individuals wrote books claiming to be god's plan. That was part of the plan.

Bearing that in mind, you can easily dismiss any stricture that forbid homosexuality. That was man's plan to discourage non-reproductive activities at a time when we actually had a people shortage. Like all plans, it is finite. If anything, god's plan may very well be to have man's plan discourage over-breeding.

A Church is just a few humans planning their plans. So, plans change. Perhaps heterosexuality is now the "sin" and homosexuality is god's current plan.

Its not part of gods plan. Its called free will. The free will to rebel against gods plan, usually to piss off mommy and daddy.

God gave Adam and Eve freewill, they decided to rebel bringing the curse of sin into the world.

Well, that's the point. Church is there to tell you what it believes God wants you to do among all the infinite choices granted by free will. Most churches believe homosexual acts are not among those acts that God wants you to engage in.

 

[opendebate]

If it wasn't part of gods plan, there wouldn't be any homosexuality.

Who are any of these people to question or even affirm gods plan? God doesn't need anyones permission.

Can I like this comment like.... 5 times?

 

[jmotivator]

God's plan is to give you what seems like free will. Using free will, individuals wrote books claiming to be god's plan. That was part of the plan.

Bearing that in mind, you can easily dismiss any stricture that forbid homosexuality. That was man's plan to discourage non-reproductive activities at a time when we actually had a people shortage. Like all plans, it is finite. If anything, god's plan may very well be to have man's plan discourage over-breeding.

A Church is just a few humans planning their plans. So, plans change. Perhaps heterosexuality is now the "sin" and homosexuality is god's current plan.

So you don't believe in the Bible. Obviously you think you can pick and choose what is good and bad in God's plan, but so can everyone else.

The argument here in about scriptural doctrine, some of which dates back thousands of years, that form the central doctrine of the many sects of the Christian religion. If you are here just to say "the Bible is a lie!" and that only you really understand how the world works then duly noted. Don 't expect that argument to carry much weight with anybody.

 

[specklebang]

I did not say the Bible was a lie. It is/was a guidebook for society a couple of thousand years ago. Even back then, they wrote a New Testament because the Old Testament had to be updated. Maybe it';s time for a New New Testament.

Even a 20 year old Fodor's Travel guide becomes out of date because things change.

Do you know anyone who follows scripture to the letter? Of course not. A 2000 year old document may have some root information and direction and should receive respect. But that doesn't mean it's frozen in place.

So you don't believe in the Bible. Obviously you think you can pick and choose what is good and bad in God's plan, but so can everyone else.

The argument here in about scriptural doctrine, some of which dates back thousands of years, that form the central doctrine of the many sects of the Christian religion. If you are here just to say "the Bible is a lie!" and that only you really understand how the world works then duly noted. Don 't expect that argument to carry much weight with anybody.

 

[opendebate]

BBC News - Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?


This is a position similar to the one I have held for many years.

The Church doesn't hate gays. The Church doesn't find having homosexual orientation in and of itself to be a sin. The Church finds acting on that orientation to be sinful. Just as acting on heterosexual impulses it views to be sinful when engaged outside the sacrament of marriage. The Church sees marriage as child centered, the act of sex to be the joining of two into one through the sexual act with the openness to God-giving life,(the "two into one" being the act in creating the child, it isn't some snazzy metaphor for doing the hoocheecoochee). This doesn't mean the Church can or will endorse gay marriage as an alternative which then allows homosexual acts to commence. No, it is expressly because homosexual acts do not allow for the openness to God-giving life which is the stumbling block of homosexuality. It is the unique and specific ability that 1 man and 1 woman have in creating this opportunity which is the foundation upon which everything else lays.

Now, the problem is in the lobbying, the actions of interested and not always genuine parties who put forth an agenda which seeks to destroy this foundation. THAT the Church will never allow and that is what is the sin.

Is this not a position of tolerance? Of good will? Of inclusiveness?

I've written this with no ill will and in good spirit. I'd ask anyone who would respond to this post and take part in this discussion to do so in the same spirit and intention. This is in part the teaching of the Church as it regards homosexuality and marriage as I have learned and understand it. Any incorrect information given is of my own ignorance and not a willful omission. If I have omitted anything pertinent to the conversation , mea culpa...

Sounds like a pretty limited version of tolerance. I have no issue with the church reminding me that scripture condemns the act but judging seems a little hypocritical.

Serious question, does the bible instruct Christians to judge and condemn sinners? If it does then everybody is a target. And aren't all sins supposed to be the same in the eyes of blah blah blah ? So what's the difference if you lust after your neighbors wife vs be a boy who does it with another boy? Educate me here. I am not a Christian and I do not believe the bible was written by any God so I am admittedly a little ignorant of it't contents.

 

[jmotivator]

I did not say the Bible was a lie. It is/was a guidebook for society a couple of thousand years ago. Even back then, they wrote a New Testament because the Old Testament had to be updated. Maybe it';s time for a New New Testament.

Even a 20 year old Fodor's Travel guide becomes out of date because things change.

Do you know anyone who follows scripture to the letter? Of course not. A 2000 year old document may have some root information and direction and should receive respect. But that doesn't mean it's frozen in place.

Do you see Jesus standing around somewhere?

 

[opendebate]

God's plan is to give you what seems like free will. Using free will, individuals wrote books claiming to be god's plan. That was part of the plan.

Bearing that in mind, you can easily dismiss any stricture that forbid homosexuality. That was man's plan to discourage non-reproductive activities at a time when we actually had a people shortage. Like all plans, it is finite. If anything, god's plan may very well be to have man's plan discourage over-breeding.

A Church is just a few humans planning their plans. So, plans change. Perhaps heterosexuality is now the "sin" and homosexuality is god's current plan.

You realize this is hopeless ...don't you?

 

[specklebang]

Honestly, I don't understand what you're trying to say. I've posted nothing but respectfully and I've tried to express myself fully. I don't talk in code and I don't understand code. So, I'll appreciate a more fathomable response if you want to continue the discussion.

Do you see Jesus standing around somewhere?

No, what is hopeless? To examine scripture in context of the modern era? We don't sacrifice sheep anymore. Adultery has become commonplace (and legal even by man-made contemporary law). Most kids don't honor their mother or father. Graven images are viewed as art, not as violation of a commandment.

We change, and god changes with us. God created the universe (unless you think the big bang was magic). God does not regulate the affairs of humans (or cats). God provided the pallet, it iis up to us to create the art.

I've actually read parts of The Old Testament with a "scholarly" explanation, almost sentence by sentence. If you muck around in there long enough, you'll find the bad stuff. Do you see how well the guys who wrote this provided for themselves? Fancy robes and all? But most of it is incredible wisdom. Dangerous foods were prohibited - wisely so. Men were given guidelines for respecting women even though women were "of lesser value. You are instructed how to treat your slaves kindly and provide for their freedom and their future. And in this sparsely settled world, men were not to waste their seed on masturbation or sex with other men. They weren't enjoined from loving other men, they were supposed to make babies. Isn't this amazing? Look at all the stuff they figured out that long ago. Society needs law, it needs direction. God doesn't do that. Humans do that.

So god did indeed give us free will. And somewhere in the matter, the atoms, from whence we come. Amazingly, all creatures have moral codes. We don't eat each other. Cats don't murder other cats.

God's plan is a lot bigger than our plans. This is God's universe but we're the ones running earth. As sentience increases, as society becomes more complex and as we share this minor planet, orbiting a minor star, orbiting a minor galaxy far, far away from where god started, we must adapt our plans and maintain moral balance in the context of current knowledge.

We're certainly no longer short of population. The restriction of homosexual sex is no longer valid or necessary. I'm sure god would be proud of us for our ability to mature.

...or did I miss your point?:3oops:

You realize this is hopeless ...don't you?

 

[opendebate]

Honestly, I don't understand what you're trying to say. I've posted nothing but respectfully and I've tried to express myself fully. I don't talk in code and I don't understand code. So, I'll appreciate a more fathomable response if you want to continue the discussion.

No, what is hopeless? To examine scripture in context of the modern era? We don't sacrifice sheep anymore. Adultery has become commonplace (and legal even by man-made contemporary law). Most kids don't honor their mother or father. Graven images are viewed as art, not as violation of a commandment.

We change, and god changes with us. God created the universe (unless you think the big bang was magic). God does not regulate the affairs of humans (or cats). God provided the pallet, it iis up to us to create the art.

I've actually read parts of The Old Testament with a "scholarly" explanation, almost sentence by sentence. If you muck around in there long enough, you'll find the bad stuff. Do you see how well the guys who wrote this provided for themselves? Fancy robes and all? But most of it is incredible wisdom. Dangerous foods were prohibited - wisely so. Men were given guidelines for respecting women even though women were "of lesser value. You are instructed how to treat your slaves kindly and provide for their freedom and their future. And in this sparsely settled world, men were not to waste their seed on masturbation or sex with other men. They weren't enjoined from loving other men, they were supposed to make babies. Isn't this amazing? Look at all the stuff they figured out that long ago. Society needs law, it needs direction. God doesn't do that. Humans do that.

So god did indeed give us free will. And somewhere in the matter, the atoms, from whence we come. Amazingly, all creatures have moral codes. We don't eat each other. Cats don't murder other cats.

God's plan is a lot bigger than our plans. This is God's universe but we're the ones running earth. As sentience increases, as society becomes more complex and as we share this minor planet, orbiting a minor star, orbiting a minor galaxy far, far away from where god started, we must adapt our plans and maintain moral balance in the context of current knowledge.

We're certainly no longer short of population. The restriction of homosexual sex is no longer valid or necessary. I'm sure god would be proud of us for our ability to mature.

...or did I miss your point?:3oops:

Yeah, you missed my point. eace

I am in agreement with you. My point was that arguing religion with people of faith is hopeless. They believe they are RIGHT (very dangerous) And I tend to think that their actual motivation is more fear than reason (also dangerous) Not to mention that so often they contradict the very teachings they claim to believe in by practicing hate daily. My daughter is gay, my best friend is gay and if heaven exists (and I do not believe it does) it would be a better place with them in it.

 

[jmotivator]

Honestly, I don't understand what you're trying to say. I've posted nothing but respectfully and I've tried to express myself fully. I don't talk in code and I don't understand code. So, I'll appreciate a more fathomable response if you want to continue the discussion.

The new testament was written from the teachings of Jesus,. You can't expect a new testament that changes the current new testament without claiming at least equal authority.

 

[ChezC3]

Sounds like a pretty limited version of tolerance. I have no issue with the church reminding me that scripture condemns the act but judging seems a little hypocritical.

Serious question, does the bible instruct Christians to judge and condemn sinners? If it does then everybody is a target. And aren't all sins supposed to be the same in the eyes of blah blah blah ? So what's the difference if you lust after your neighbors wife vs be a boy who does it with another boy? Educate me here. I am not a Christian and I do not believe the bible was written by any God so I am admittedly a little ignorant of it't contents.

No, actually it isn't. Tolerance doesn't mean acceptance. No one is judging, they are saying this is what the Church, the Church founded by Christ, God's visible representative on Earth shows as Truth. All are welcome. But this is what's expected. This is what being in communion with the Church and with God is all about. You will not change that.

The simple version is the bible shows that Christians are to rebuke and correct errant brothers in Christ. Preach the Good News. We specifically are told not to condemn because we don't have that authority. But not condemning doesn't mean allowing. Doesn't mean condoning. It means showing love and bringing the errant of good will into the fold. If you don't have a problem, don't find homosexuality sinful (the act of), and have no plans on changing or to stop engaging in the act than you are not of good will. No, we are not all the same in blah blah blah eyes and neither are we in God's. The idea that all sin is the same is heretical and had been crushed long ago. The easiest example would be the cataloging of sin as either mortal or venial. Evidence in the bible also tells us that certain sins are unforgivable (e.g. blasphemy against the holy spirit), while others are forgivable. While not condemning, it is also shown that those who don't accept what is taught are suppose to be left alone. That means ostracized. Ostracized is not condemning, it is separating.

The Bible wasn't written by God it was inspired by.

But please, do tell, where in my post did you see even the slightest smattering of judgement? Differentiating and explaining what is and isn't allowed and why it isn't isn't judging.