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The Pope Said It Best

ChezC3

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"If a person is gay and seeks God and has good will, who am I to judge them?"


"The problem is not having this orientation," he said. "We must be brothers. The problem is lobbying by this orientation,..."

BBC News - Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?


This is a position similar to the one I have held for many years.

The Church doesn't hate gays. The Church doesn't find having homosexual orientation in and of itself to be a sin. The Church finds acting on that orientation to be sinful. Just as acting on heterosexual impulses it views to be sinful when engaged outside the sacrament of marriage. The Church sees marriage as child centered, the act of sex to be the joining of two into one through the sexual act with the openness to God-giving life,(the "two into one" being the act in creating the child, it isn't some snazzy metaphor for doing the hoocheecoochee). This doesn't mean the Church can or will endorse gay marriage as an alternative which then allows homosexual acts to commence. No, it is expressly because homosexual acts do not allow for the openness to God-giving life which is the stumbling block of homosexuality. It is the unique and specific ability that 1 man and 1 woman have in creating this opportunity which is the foundation upon which everything else lays.

Now, the problem is in the lobbying, the actions of interested and not always genuine parties who put forth an agenda which seeks to destroy this foundation. THAT the Church will never allow and that is what is the sin.

Is this not a position of tolerance? Of good will? Of inclusiveness?

I've written this with no ill will and in good spirit. I'd ask anyone who would respond to this post and take part in this discussion to do so in the same spirit and intention. This is in part the teaching of the Church as it regards homosexuality and marriage as I have learned and understand it. Any incorrect information given is of my own ignorance and not a willful omission. If I have omitted anything pertinent to the conversation , mea culpa...
 

tosca1

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BBC News - Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?


This is a position similar to the one I have held for many years.

The Church doesn't hate gays. The Church doesn't find having homosexual orientation in and of itself to be a sin. The Church finds acting on that orientation to be sinful. Just as acting on heterosexual impulses it views to be sinful when engaged outside the sacrament of marriage. The Church sees marriage as child centered, the act of sex to be the joining of two into one through the sexual act with the openness to God-giving life,(the "two into one" being the act in creating the child, it isn't some snazzy metaphor for doing the hoocheecoochee). This doesn't mean the Church can or will endorse gay marriage as an alternative which then allows homosexual acts to commence. No, it is expressly because homosexual acts do not allow for the openness to God-giving life which is the stumbling block of homosexuality. It is the unique and specific ability that 1 man and 1 woman have in creating this opportunity which is the foundation upon which everything else lays.

Now, the problem is in the lobbying, the actions of interested and not always genuine parties who put forth an agenda which seeks to destroy this foundation. THAT the Church will never allow and that is what is the sin.

Is this not a position of tolerance? Of good will? Of inclusiveness?

I've written this with no ill will and in good spirit. I'd ask anyone who would respond to this post and take part in this discussion to do so in the same spirit and intention. This is in part the teaching of the Church as it regards homosexuality and marriage as I have learned and understand it. Any incorrect information given is of my own ignorance and not a willful omission. If I have omitted anything pertinent to the conversation , mea culpa...

It is indeed the homosexual act that is sinful. God is forgiving, Christianity is inclusive - after all we are all sinners.
All it takes is to be repentant and ask God for forgiveness.

There is, however, a cabal of gay priests - this was reported several years ago - that protect one another as they practice their orientation. The latest investigation about it only reinforces what had been exposed before.
 
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nota bene

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You're referring to the "lavender mafia." And it's important to note that in his recent comments, Pope Francis was referring to gay clergy.
 

davidtaylorjr

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BBC News - Pope Francis: Who am I to judge gay people?


This is a position similar to the one I have held for many years.

The Church doesn't hate gays. The Church doesn't find having homosexual orientation in and of itself to be a sin. The Church finds acting on that orientation to be sinful. Just as acting on heterosexual impulses it views to be sinful when engaged outside the sacrament of marriage. The Church sees marriage as child centered, the act of sex to be the joining of two into one through the sexual act with the openness to God-giving life,(the "two into one" being the act in creating the child, it isn't some snazzy metaphor for doing the hoocheecoochee). This doesn't mean the Church can or will endorse gay marriage as an alternative which then allows homosexual acts to commence. No, it is expressly because homosexual acts do not allow for the openness to God-giving life which is the stumbling block of homosexuality. It is the unique and specific ability that 1 man and 1 woman have in creating this opportunity which is the foundation upon which everything else lays.

Now, the problem is in the lobbying, the actions of interested and not always genuine parties who put forth an agenda which seeks to destroy this foundation. THAT the Church will never allow and that is what is the sin.

Is this not a position of tolerance? Of good will? Of inclusiveness?

I've written this with no ill will and in good spirit. I'd ask anyone who would respond to this post and take part in this discussion to do so in the same spirit and intention. This is in part the teaching of the Church as it regards homosexuality and marriage as I have learned and understand it. Any incorrect information given is of my own ignorance and not a willful omission. If I have omitted anything pertinent to the conversation , mea culpa...

Correct, the homosexual "orientation" is part of the sin nature. But can be conquered in Christ.
 

specklebang

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If it wasn't part of gods plan, there wouldn't be any homosexuality.

Who are any of these people to question or even affirm gods plan? God doesn't need anyones permission.
 

davidtaylorjr

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If it wasn't part of gods plan, there wouldn't be any homosexuality.

Who are any of these people to question or even affirm gods plan? God doesn't need anyones permission.

Actually God's plan was for there to be no sin at all.
 

Ben K.

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If it wasn't part of gods plan, there wouldn't be any homosexuality.

Who are any of these people to question or even affirm gods plan? God doesn't need anyones permission.

If it wasnt part of gods plan, why would there be sin at all?

It's a cute attempt to try and reconcile abrahaminism with sexual liberty, but they don't mesh. The text of those books are clear by their standards, one can accept their immorality or disregard them and accept that a consensual act that harms no one is plainly not immoral regardless of what a "holy" text says .
 

ChezC3

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You're referring to the "lavender mafia." And it's important to note that in his recent comments, Pope Francis was referring to gay clergy.

No, I'm not. Not in its exclusive. There are plenty of lobbying efforts of the "mafia" as well as laity to undermine the authority of the Magisterium. From HC organizations, to NPO's to social justice advocates. Plenty who call themselves, want to identify themselves, receive the benefit of affiliating themselves with the Catholic Church but for one reason or another are absolutely NOT Catholic in what they are advocators for...
 

Captain America

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I worked with a jewish fella that told me his parents had bed sheets with a hole cut into them so they could screw. He said they could bump nasty's but weren't allowed to touch otherwise.

I'm not sure if he was telling the truth, or not, though. He didn't strike me as a liar. I thought it was kinda funny actually that he would tell me that in the first place. LOL!

Religions have some pretty weirded out views regarding sex, no?
 

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In vitro fertilization and surrogacy have made these arguments somewhat irrelevant. How do you argue against committed homosexual unions when technology has bypassed the argument? Arguing against the technology is a claim that all infertile heterosexual couples who use it are somehow wrong. The only recourse is to argue gender roles and even that falls flat in modern society.
 

CriticalThought

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Correct, the homosexual "orientation" is part of the sin nature. But can be conquered in Christ.

Nice of you to speak on behalf of Christ given that he did not apparently even see the issue of homosexuality to be worth talking about himself. Apparently he must not have foreseen how much energy and resources would be expended on this topic.
 

davidtaylorjr

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Nice of you to speak on behalf of Christ given that he did not apparently even see the issue of homosexuality to be worth talking about himself. Apparently he must not have foreseen how much energy and resources would be expended on this topic.

He also didn't discuss rape either, does that mean that is a non-issue? That's a very poor argument that you and many others try to convey.
 

ChezC3

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In vitro fertilization and surrogacy have made these arguments somewhat irrelevant. How do you argue against committed homosexual unions when technology has bypassed the argument? Arguing against the technology is a claim that all infertile heterosexual couples who use it are somehow wrong. The only recourse is to argue gender roles and even that falls flat in modern society.

From a theological perspective you are assuming two things. 1. This technology is inherently good. 2. Your placing yourself in the role of God.

There was someone very specific that you'll recall who wanted to be like the Most High, remember him?

No, arguing against this technology doesn't mean anyone is wrong it means they are usurping powers not given.

And gender roles are extremely relevant today, many problems could be solved if the idea that everyone who can do anything should do anything would be put to rest.

One could argue, again all this is from a theological perspective and this isn't necessarily my opinion just a hypothetical for instance, that infertile couples, and we can go even further and say homosexuals are part of God's plan in regards to population control.
 

ChezC3

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Nice of you to speak on behalf of Christ given that he did not apparently even see the issue of homosexuality to be worth talking about himself. Apparently he must not have foreseen how much energy and resources would be expended on this topic.

Matthew 5:18
For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled.

So actually he did.
 

CriticalThought

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He also didn't discuss rape either, does that mean that is a non-issue? That's a very poor argument that you and many others try to convey.

He kind of said "love thy neighbor" and I think that is kind of hard to do while raping them. Your counterargument is a bit weak.
 

CriticalThought

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Matthew 5:18
For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled.

So actually he did.

Huh? You gotta help me on that one.
 

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the pope is also a politician,

so ignore
 

Captain America

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Nice of you to speak on behalf of Christ given that he did not apparently even see the issue of homosexuality to be worth talking about himself. Apparently he must not have foreseen how much energy and resources would be expended on this topic.

That, or he didn't want Judas to feel guilty about a lil' ol' kiss.

Given the history of religious organizations, has anyone wondered why 12 dudes who ate together, slept together and all love the same man, were run from town to town? Not trying to start a conspiracy. Just rubbing my chin going, "Hmmmmmm...."

I mean, you got your Westboro Baptist folks doing their thing. Our forum gay haters/God lovers here, looking down their collective condescending noses, from some delusional moral high ground doing their best to antagonize. I wonder if these folks would be the same folks that would persecute Jesus and His merry followers if He were here today walking down our streets? So many traits in common.

But I do think tranny's are weird. Beyond my comprehension. But I do believe in live and let live. If they are nice to me I will be nice to them and let the good lord sort it all out. I would never take the arrogant approach. I like the jesus that taught me to love everyone and to not be some kind of self-righteous hypocrite. That's MY Jesus. And he said to STFU y'all. LOL!
 

ChezC3

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Huh? You gotta help me on that one.

The law speaks specifically on homosexuality and its prohibition. He said not a jot or tittle, you know what, here's a more modern translation

For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.


I understand that this can also be said of all the 613 mitzvot in the Torah but Christians not following all of them to this day doesn't negate what he said.
 

tosca1

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You're referring to the "lavender mafia." And it's important to note that in his recent comments, Pope Francis was referring to gay clergy.

I'm not sure if that was called lavender mafia. Years back, during the time of the Pope (the one who died and was canonized for sainthood) when scandal after scandal started erupting related to child abuse, an investigative study/report was made - I think it was commissioned by the Vatican.
It found out about the cabal of gays that were/are actively operating within the church. They were protecting one another, and perhaps this same members would be among those that want to and are actively working to make radical changes.
 

davidtaylorjr

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He kind of said "love thy neighbor" and I think that is kind of hard to do while raping them. Your counterargument is a bit weak.

The point is Jesus did not list every sin, wasn't His purpose so to say that because he did not expressly say anything about homosexuality as an argument for it is quite frankly, ignorant.
 

shagg

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The point is Jesus did not list every sin, wasn't His purpose so to say that because he did not expressly say anything about homosexuality as an argument for it is quite frankly, ignorant.

But assuming that homosexuality is a sin even though He didn't mention it is worse than ignorant.
 
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