The politics of islam [W:368]

[coldjoint]

Start with a Google search for items and laws listed "Sanhedrin 55b." "Sanhedrin 58b" "Soferim 15, rule 10" "Yebamoth 63a." and I could go on and on.

Would you like me to list modern day Rabbi quotes and where they urge the killing of all Gentiles?

Or where a Prime Minister of Israel said that if ever Israel was under threat that she was prepared to take the whole world down with them?

Calm

I wasn't talking to you, and I am not concerned with the Jews. I fear for their safety, however.

 

[TheGoverness]

I wasn't talking to you, and I am not concerned with the Jews. I fear for their safety, however.

Isn't fearing for the Jew's safety also being concerned for them?

 

[coldjoint]

Isn't fearing for the Jew's safety also being concerned for them?

If you want to nit-pick. I am not concerned with any terror that Calm claims they committed.

 

[calm]

Speaking of Religious Violence:

The ultra-fundamentalist Od Yosef Hai yeshiva:

“In any situation in which a non-Jew’s presence endangers Jewish lives, the non-Jew may be killed even if he is a righteous Gentile and not at all guilty for the situation that has been created…When a non-Jew assists a murderer of Jews and causes the death of one, he may be killed, and in any case where a non-Jew’s presence causes danger to Jews, the non-Jew may be killed…The [Din Rodef] dispensation applies even when the pursuer is not threatening to kill directly, but only indirectly…Even a civilian who assists combat fighters is considered a pursuer and may be killed. Anyone who assists the army of the wicked in any way is strengthening murderers and is considered a pursuer. A civilian who encourages the war gives the king and his soldiers the strength to continue. Therefore, any citizen of the state that opposes us who encourages the combat soldiers or expresses satisfaction over their actions is considered a pursuer and may be killed. Also, anyone who weakens our own state by word or similar action is considered a pursuer…Hindrances—babies are found many times in this situation. They block the way to rescue by their presence and do so completely by force. Nevertheless, they may be killed because their presence aids murder. There is justification for killing babies if it is clear that they will grow up to harm us, and in such a situation they may be harmed deliberately, and not only during combat with adults.”…In a chapter entitled “Deliberate harm to innocents,” the book explains that war is directled mainly against the pursuers, but those who belong to the enemy nation are also considered the enemy because they are assisting murderers.

If a Muslim had said this (reversed words "Jew" to "Muslim") .... There would be hell to pay.

Calm

 

[TheGoverness]

If you want to nit-pick. I am not concerned with any terror that Calm claims they committed.

OK. That makes more sense.

I'm not even familiar with any terror that the Jews committed.

 

[coldjoint]

Speaking of Religious Violence:

The ultra-fundamentalist Od Yosef Hai yeshiva:

“In any situation in which a non-Jew’s presence endangers Jewish lives, the non-Jew may be killed even if he is a righteous Gentile and not at all guilty for the situation that has been created…When a non-Jew assists a murderer of Jews and causes the death of one, he may be killed, and in any case where a non-Jew’s presence causes danger to Jews, the non-Jew may be killed…The [Din Rodef] dispensation applies even when the pursuer is not threatening to kill directly, but only indirectly…Even a civilian who assists combat fighters is considered a pursuer and may be killed. Anyone who assists the army of the wicked in any way is strengthening murderers and is considered a pursuer. A civilian who encourages the war gives the king and his soldiers the strength to continue. Therefore, any citizen of the state that opposes us who encourages the combat soldiers or expresses satisfaction over their actions is considered a pursuer and may be killed. Also, anyone who weakens our own state by word or similar action is considered a pursuer…Hindrances—babies are found many times in this situation. They block the way to rescue by their presence and do so completely by force. Nevertheless, they may be killed because their presence aids murder. There is justification for killing babies if it is clear that they will grow up to harm us, and in such a situation they may be harmed deliberately, and not only during combat with adults.”…In a chapter entitled “Deliberate harm to innocents,” the book explains that war is directled mainly against the pursuers, but those who belong to the enemy nation are also considered the enemy because they are assisting murderers.

This thread is about political Islam. Please start another thread on your topic.

 

[Tigerace117]

OK. That makes more sense.

I'm not even familiar with any terror that the Jews committed.

It's always been small groups or individuals in regards to Judaism. You could argue the Sicarii were the first such group.

In modern times you have the Stern Gang, a couple of groups which operated in the early 1950s, Meir Kahane's flunkies.....

Shin Bet has complained that Jewish radicals are treated too lenientently by the courts in Israel.

 

[calm]

I know the thread is about Political Islam.

I am comparing Political Islam to other religions.

Calm

 

[calm]

I'm not even familiar with any terror that the Jews committed.

Comparing Political Islam Violence with other religions.

Short History of Israeli Right Wing Terrorism
By Ori Nir
November 13, 2009
GlobalSecurity.org - SITREP Situation Report | Short History of Israeli Right Wing Terrorism

Yitzhak shamir Said:

“Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can be used to disallow terror as a means of war... We are very far from any moral hesitations when concerned with the national struggle. First and foremost, terror is for us a part of the political war appropriate for the circumstances of today...”

Jewish religious terrorism
From Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_religious_terrorism

 

[TheGoverness]

Short History of Israeli Right Wing Terrorism
By Ori Nir
November 13, 2009
GlobalSecurity.org - SITREP Situation Report | Short History of Israeli Right Wing Terrorism

Thanks for the information.

 

[coldjoint]

Short History of Israeli Right Wing Terrorism
By Ori Nir
November 13, 2009
GlobalSecurity.org - SITREP Situation Report | Short History of Israeli Right Wing Terrorism

Yitzhak shamir Said:

“Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can be used to disallow terror as a means of war... We are very far from any moral hesitations when concerned with the national struggle. First and foremost, terror is for us a part of the political war appropriate for the circumstances of today...”

Jewish religious terrorism
From Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_religious_terrorism

The last date I see in your link is 2006. Anything new? There were Islamic terror attacks today.

And your other link says:

This article possibly contains original research. Please improve it by verifying the claims made and adding inline citations. Statements consisting only of original research should be removed. (September 2015)

Try again.

 

[calm]

The last date I see in your link is 2006. Anything new? There were Islamic terror attacks today. And your other link says:Try again.

I think your references all through this thread dates back to the time of the dinosaurs .... At least mine is dated 2006.

Typical .... As soon as somebody mentions Jewish Terrorism, everybody lawyers-up!

The story is claimed to be ancient and the content is said to be suspect!

Don't yuh know that everything must originate from a Pro-Israel website or it holds no value to any conversation at all?

Calm

 

[coldjoint]

Typical .... As soon as somebody mentions Jewish Terrorism, everybody lawyers-up!

The story is ancient and the content is suspect!

Calm

I asked a question. I guess you don't have an answer. Again, anything new?

 

[Kiwimac]

I asked a question. I guess you don't have an answer. Again, anything new?

So it doesn't matter when it was said by a Muslim but is always a reproach to them but it matters desperately when such statements are made by other groups. Biased much?

 

[TheGoverness]

So it doesn't matter when it was said by a Muslim but is always a reproach to them but it matters desperately when such statements are made by other groups. Biased much?

Valid point.

 

[calm]

Everytime I read a thread promoted like this, I am always tempted to ask if the "Promoters" can link me to 5 comments in the past 30 days, and where the writer (Promoter) said anything positive about Muslims or Arabs during their membership here.

 

[Chagos]

Everytime I read a thread promoted like this, I am always tempted to ask if the "Promoters" can link me to 5 comments in the past 30 days, and where the writer (Promoter) said anything positive about Muslims or Arabs during their membership here.

The driving force in those creating threads like these is fear of and hatred for Islam and anyone following that religion, complemented by the goal and desire to spread that fear and loathing so as to be shared by more people.

The point in arguing with such racists cannot lie in changing their opinion (an impossibility with any bigot), it can only lie in showing them to be what they are.

I predict that any response to this will include the indignant screech that Muslims are not a race. Where indeed correct, that argument is never made by the racists on account of factuality but on account of the ludicrous attempt to absolve themselves from accusations of racism ("we can't be racist if a people we summarily condemn are not of a race").

That is of course a pathetic excuse and as such laughable in that the very same parameters of fear and hatred towards whole peoples totally govern the stance of the authors here.

Object and goal of threads like these is not uttering anything positive towards whoever, on the contrary it's wholesale condemnation.

Whether one goes back the last 30 days or the last 25 years.

 

[stevecanuck]

Let's see if I have this right. Islam tells Muslims they can rape their slaves and captives. I criticize that. Therefore I am a bigot. Islam tells men to beat their disobedient wives. I criticize that. Therefore I am a bigot. Islam tells Muslims to fight infidels until Islam reigns supreme. I criticize that. Therefore I am a bigot. Islam says Jews are to be despised as apes and swine......shall I continue?

Chagos entered my "Islam and rape" thread making several posts without once debating the points in the OP, instead attacking me. I see he has continued with the argumentum ad hominem approach above, since there is no rebuttal to the simple truth. What I can't figure out is why he, and other dhimmis, are so intent on defending the indefensible. If our claims about what Islam teaches are wrong, it would be easy to rebut them. They don't even try, because they can't. If our claims are true, then what is their motive in trying to deny, deflect, and deride? Really, what drives them???

 

[Chagos]

One need only go (if one is at all interested) to this thread and start at post #145 to see why any debate with SC could only be deemed totally pointless by the time it got to post #200.

The poster's "credentials" as an informed and, more importantly, objective scholar have found no verification to this date and the corresponding habitual prevarications that range from cherry-picking, partial quoting only, addressing the convenient and ignoring what is not, as well as displaying possibly deliberate obtuseness over what has actually been said appear to continue to this day.

When my hint at educating oneself upon a fatwah by the Supreme court of Jeddah (#193) and a reminder to the same (#196) clearly was such an irritant to the prevailing narrative that it found no address at all, any further interest of mine in any further exchange finally vanished completely.

For obvious reasons not to re-appear anymore.

 

[stevecanuck]

More of the same. Let's indeed go back to Islam and rape. Does Islam tell Muslims they can rape their captives and slaves or does it not?

 

[Chagos]

More of the same. Let's indeed go back to Islam and rape. Does Islam tell Muslims they can rape their captives and slaves or does it not?

Yeah, more of the same and that's why you can conduct this debate with yourself, as already pointed out.

 

[dolphinocean]

Generally speaking, the violence carried out by Muslim groups is sort of "personal" because they don't have the military weaponry. Sort of like somebody stabbing another rather than act as a sniper from a distance because they don't own a gun.

Christian and Jewish Folks have the military weaponry to commit their violence upon whole neighbourhoods with drones and in such an impersonal way. If anything, this method is more cowardly than those described as being personal.

Calm

What a bunch of baloney!


In March of this year, islamic jihadists slaughtered 70 innocent Pakistani Christian women and children in a crowded park in Lahore celebrating Easter. Another 300 people were injured in the bomb blast. These defenseless Christian women and children were specifically targeted for slaughter by the jihadists. The targeted victims were going about their business having a good time in their Easter celebration in a supposedly safe and peaceful environment. They weren't unfortunate collateral damages as a result of war, mind you.


Do you think a bunch of women and children celebrating Easter holiday tantamounts to cowardly having military weaponry and drones that forced the islamic jihadists to wage a "personal" defensive violence against them? Oh, so you say the jihadists don't have military weaponry such as a bomb?


But, this isn't just the only incidents, there are thousands of such cases over the years where islamic jihadists purposely target the most defenseless and the most vulnerable to inflict their brutal attacks.It's impossible to list them all but I'll mention just a few here.

In Oct 2005, 3 female Christian students were beheaded by 3 muslim men for no reason other than they were infidels. That region was plagued by islamic violence from 1998 -2000 where over 1,000 people lost their lives and many were expelled from their homes. Same islamic violence against innocent infidels occurred in Philippines, Thailand, Burma, Malaysia, Singapore, India besides what happened in islamic hell hole lands where they killed infidels and muslims alike that weren't up to snuff or were of different brands. But, that's just islam. Read the islamic history.


In Oct 2014 the islamic jihadists murdered over 100 people in Peshawar school in Pakistan. Eighty percent of them were children.


I guess to you all these victims, including children, being infidels tantamounts to having military weaponry and drones that justified the jihadists to commit violence in a "personal" way of jihad?

 

[dolphinocean]

Or where a Prime Minister of Israel said that if ever Israel was under threat that she was prepared to take the whole world down with them?

No religion can be said to be more violent than another. All religions are violent and have a sordid history of violence.

Calm

Just about the whole world is siding the muslim palestinian jihadists and now aiding Iran to fulfill its goal of driving Israeli off the map and into the sea. Iran also believes in annihilating the whole world for islamic cause, or something to that effect, and no one said anything. In this sick world only islamic jihadists are allowed to attack innocent people in large number. But Israel can't defend herself when attacked, not even allowed to voice her opinion. Sick.

 

[Chagos]

What a bunch of baloney!~

Well, if this is the title to that which then follows in this here your post, I couldn't agree more.

Not about the factuality of the content in the ensuing rant but in making anyone wonder what the hell it even remotely has to do with what's stated in the post you quote.

 

[dolphinocean]

Start with a Google search for items and laws listed "Sanhedrin 55b." "Sanhedrin 58b" "Soferim 15, rule 10" "Yebamoth 63a." and I could go on and on.

Would you like me to list modern day Rabbi quotes and where they urge the killing of all Gentiles?

Calm

Comparing Political Islam Violence with other religions.

Short History of Israeli Right Wing Terrorism
By Ori Nir
November 13, 2009
GlobalSecurity.org - SITREP Situation Report | Short History of Israeli Right Wing Terrorism

Yitzhak shamir Said:

“Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can be used to disallow terror as a means of war... We are very far from any moral hesitations when concerned with the national struggle. First and foremost, terror is for us a part of the political war appropriate for the circumstances of today...”

Jewish religious terrorism
From Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_religious_terrorism

This is another bunch of baloney. Is that all you can come up from your intense google search? What a desperate grasp on straws.

This so-called ultra-fundamentalist "Jewish religious terrorism" is nothing more than a reactionary fight for survival. The 1st century so-called Jewish violence was fought against the Romans in their own ancestral land of Judea. They never venture out to attack the Roman territory other than what was taken from them. The Talmud in which you cited the Sanhedrin and Soferim merely reflected the rabbinical opinion and ruling regarding the legitimacy of their violent tactics against what they saw as their oppressors. So, they weren't the doctrine taken from the Bible without corrupting its teaching.

The Argun was a resistant movement operating between 1932 to 1948 during the British Mandate. The Jews were increasingly discriminated in Europe just before Holocaust happened. They were promised a Jewish Homeland in their ancestral land by the British in the Belfour Declaration during WWI. The Arabs in Palestine weren't happen about it so they started attacking and killing Jews in Palestine during the 1920s long before Israel became a nation in the modern world.

In the aftermath of Arab Riots of 1929 aka Massacres, Irgun branched out from the Haganah due to the view that Haganah failed to adequately defend the Jewish interests. Later, when the British seems to renege on the Belfour and prohibited shiploads of Jews fleeing from the Holocaust to land in Palestine, the Irgun group then turned against the British. They didn't have military weaponry to take on the British, so they engage in terrorism tactics to frighten the British to change their mind. But, they didn't target innocent civilians. In the bombing of King David Hotel, they actually called the hotel to warn them of the impending bomb explosion so that no innocent human being is killed. The same cannot be said of islamic terrorists.

The ultra-fundamentalist Od Yosef Hai yeshiva was also a response to Palestinian islamic jihadists relentless attacks on innocent Israeli civilians that intensified in the year 2000. At that time, if you turn on the news you would hear islamic suicide bombing attacks on crowded buses and in restaurants where Jews were celebrating Jewish Holy day or weddings. Jews were randomly gun down on the streets or the whole Jewish family, including babies, were slaughtered while they were asleep at home in their beds.

All these Jewish terrorism activities were mainly the result of their being attack. It was a matter of survival that they were driven into terror tactics used on them by the islamic jihadists. Their activities were only restricted in their own land to defend against the muslims terrorists. They don't venture out of their country to attack other countries globally as the islamic jihadists do. They don't attack gentiles just because they are gentiles. They only attack the gentiles who support the islamic jihadists in one way or another. Even so, the Israeli govern outlawed them and closed their organization down. So, there's no wide support from the Jewish community for their organizations let alone Biblically based.