The Pledge of Allegiance

[Columbusite]

OK I'm a conservative and I argue against the mingling of faith and government. I argue you are wrong in your position. So you claim that it is liberals is false on it's face. In fact the conservative stance would be to prohibt government involvement in your religious faith NOT to have them intertwined. And no "All experts" do not agree that the actual words in the Constitution refer to anything other than what they specifically say.

Those who do not believe as you do not deny that there is a religious history, but we certainly don't exaggerate it either. Most of those who came here did not do so because of religion they came here because of commerece. Those that did come here because of religion were fleeing a government such as you would like to establish here, one where government and religion are intermixed.

Thank you! See, this is something that all Americans, liberal and conservative, should be able to agree on. I think by "all experts" he means "all conservative Christians who agree with me".

 

[Columbusite]

I was standing up for a founding Document,LOL
All experts agree that the actual words in the Constitution refer to creating a state religion,.Which England and several of the colonies had at the time.
Liberals and secular humanists want to deny america's religious heritage and history . They want to drive religion from the public square and even purge our history of events religious facets.

You are not standing up for our Consitution, which is the founding document. The DoI founded nothing (but don't think I'm down playing it's importance as it is was intregal in leading to the founding of our country). It looks like from the info you gave me that your "experts" believe that the DoI has some sort of legal weight when it has none at all. You might want look for some real experts on the matter. Read that 1st amendment quote I gave and notice the word in bold. The word "respecting" means laws with respect to leading up to the creation of an establishment. Having "under God" in our pledge is stating that we are a nation under the authority of a deity (specifcally Christian). When the state is showing favoritism towards religion it is crossing the line. You might want to read what life was like in the colonies governed by religion because that is an excellent example of why we need separation of church and state. Death penalty for blasphemy and cursing too much? A scarlet letter for adultery (women only, it's OK if guys do it)? Getting an idea of why the Constitution was written without a single mention of God?

 

[clone]

actually, im currently in high school.

our schools policy is if you dont want to say it, dont say it, just dont disrespect it either.

 

[Columbusite]

actually, im currently in high school.

our schools policy is if you dont want to say it, dont say it, just dont disrespect it either.

Read my previous post. :lol:

 

[clone]

i was replying to steen.

the world doesnt revolve around you, ya know... :lol:

 

[Columbusite]

i was replying to steen.

the world doesnt revolve around you, ya know... :lol:

Sorry, I couldn't resist. If you don't mind my butting in, I understand what you're saying in your earlier posts, but it looks like you've misunderstood what the issue is. That the pledge is an option is not the point. The point is the government backing religion in it's official pledge of allegiance. I see no problem in changing the pledge back to the way it used to be (aside from the fact that "liberty and justice for all" is a joke and that the pledge is just a quick fix for feeling patriotic and pious without actually doing anything).

 

[clone]

^agreed.

i fully understood the topic, i just dont see why people have to start crying about such small things. "under god" is a metaphor that shows how America is just another nation among many. and if you really feel offended by it, DONT SAY IT!

and by the way, i for one do intend to fullfil my pledge to this contry, which is why i said earlier that if the 3rd world war starts, im joining the army.

 

[Columbusite]

^agreed.

i fully understood the topic, i just dont see why people have to start crying about such small things. "under god" is a metaphor that shows how America is just another nation among many. and if you really feel offended by it, DONT SAY IT!

and by the way, i for one do intend to fullfil my pledge to this contry, which is why i said earlier that if the 3rd world war starts, im joining the army.

Huh? How do you get that meaning from "under God"? I'm not offended, it's just unconstitutional. If you wish to add it on yourself or "without God" feel free to do so. Having "under God" in the official pledge says our government is under the authority of God. Last time I checked, this is not a theocracy and so that phrase has no place in the official pledge.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/showthread.php?t=3855&page=24
(for a more indepth explanation if you wish)

 

[clone]

actually "under god" was added to the pledge as a way of distinguishing america from "other" communist nations.

 

[Stinger]

Huh? How do you get that meaning from "under God"? I'm not offended, it's just unconstitutional. If you wish to add it on yourself or "without God" feel free to do so. Having "under God" in the official pledge says our government is under the authority of God. Last time I checked, this is not a theocracy and so that phrase has no place in the official pledge.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/showthread.php?t=3855&page=24
(for a more indepth explanation if you wish)

It's amazing how the position of many of those who support the religious clause being in the pledge, primarily on the old tired arguement that we are founded on "Christian Principles" or we are a "Chrisitian Nation" then turn around and invoke the Clinton defense "It all depends on the meaning of the word God" and try to pretend that God doesn't mean God anymore. In fact it seem a little disrepectful of their faith to me.

 

[Columbusite]

It's amazing how the position of many of those who support the religious clause being in the pledge, primarily on the old tired arguement that we are founded on "Christian Principles" or we are a "Chrisitian Nation" then turn around and invoke the Clinton defense "It all depends on the meaning of the word God" and try to pretend that God doesn't mean God anymore. In fact it seem a little disrepectful of their faith to me.

They don't seem to mind trampling on their own faith as long as it's to selfishly have control and power over everyone else.

 

[argexpat]

Nativity scenes and the Pledge of allegiance.Do not scare Observant Jews,Muslims, etc. It only scares some reformed jews and atheists and secular humanists.

This is not an answer to either of my questions, so I'll ask them again:

1. Who are these liberals you keep referring to? Can you define "liberal"?

2. Would you support the erection of a monument to the Koran in front of your state house, or the posting of verses from the Koran in your child's public school? Would you be as supportive of government-sponsored non-Christian religious displays as you are of Christian displays?

If an atheists child is so fragile that standing in a room where people mention God will mentaly scar the child.Its a reflection on his up bringing.

This is a specious argument, but I'll indulge it anyway, by posing it's opposite: Is a Christian child's faith so fragile that she must hear God mentioned in every room, regardless of the others standing in that room with her, and even when that room is sponsored by the government, which according to the constitution cannot establish a religion?

Striking the words "under God" from the Pledge and removing the Ten Commandments and nativity scenes from public buildings does not infringe on the the religious freedoms of a single person. On the contrary, it protects freedom of religion, which also by definition means freedom from religion.

 

[Elektra]

For all I care, the pledge could say Allah, Mother earth or keep God, I just strongly oppose its reciting by schoolchildren,endorsed by and in the school.

 

[JOHNYJ]

RE ; Elecktra

Hi, I think teaching kids patriotism is Great ! There should be more of it.Teaching Respect and Loyalty to the Flag is terrific !

 

[Columbusite]

RE ; Elecktra

Hi, I think teaching kids patriotism is Great ! There should be more of it.Teaching Respect and Loyalty to the Flag is terrific !

Saying a pledge by habit without even know about the foundation of our Constitution and what it stands for is FALSE patriotism. Hey, I have 5 American flag bumper stickers on my car, I'm more patriotic than you are!:roll: It teaches neither loyalty nor respect for the flag. I don't know about you, but I save capitalization for people's names and things like God (the one true God, obviously Deistic), not a flag.

 

[TimmyBoy]

I pledge allegiance to the flag
of the United States of America,
and to the republic for which it stands:
one nation,
under God,
indivisible,
with liberty and justice for all.

Every morning, in schools all across America, children stand up, face the flag, and recite these words. Recently, however, the practice of having it said in public schools has come under fire because it contains the words "under God," which were added in 1954. One of the main criticisms of these two little words is that they violate the "establishment" clause of the First Amendment, which states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion".

What are your views on the Pledge? Should "under God" remain or be removed from it? Should the Pledge be recited in public schools or not? Why do you believe the way you do?

SE

I don't like the idea of pledging allegiance to any state. I prefer to stand by the principle of freedom, real freedom, true freedom. Not pretend or fake freedom. The state is the enemy of freedom, not the protector of freedom. Always has, always will be.

 

[MSgt]

I got an interesting e-mail thins morning. After reviewing acknowledgments of God from all 50 state constitutions, one is faced with the prospect that maybe, just maybe, the ACLU and the out-of-control federal courts are wrong? While people always seem to KNOW what our "founding fathers" meant, maybe they should actually try to do just that. Maybe they did not intend for there to be a separation of God and state, as shown by the fact that all 50 states acknowledge God in their state constitutions. What does your state say? :shrug:


Alabama 1901, Preamble. We the people of the State of Alabama, invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution

Alaska 1956, Preamble. We, the people of Alaska, grateful to God and to those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land

Arizona 1911, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arizona, grateful to Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution...

Arkansas 1874, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arkansas, grateful to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government...

California 1879, Preamble. We, the People of the State of California, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom ..

Colorado 1876, Preamble. We, the people of Colorado, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of Universe.

Connecticut 1818, Preamble. The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy .

Delaware 1897, Preamble. Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature, the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the dictates of their consciences.

Florida 1885, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Florida, grateful to Almighty God for our constitutional liberty .. establish this constitution...

Georgia 1777, Preamble. We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution...

Hawaii 1959, Preamble. We, the people of Hawaii, Grateful for Divine Guidance . establish this Constitution.

Idaho 1889, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Idaho, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings .

Illinois 1870, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors.

Indiana 1851, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Indiana, grateful to Almighty God for the free exercise of the right to chose our form of government.

Iowa 1857, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Iowa, grateful to the Supreme Being for the blessings hitherto enjoyed, and feeling our dependence on Him for a continuation of these blessings establish this Constitution

Kansas 1859, Preamble. We, the people of Kansas, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious privileges ... establish this Constitution.

Kentucky 1891, Preamble. We, the people of the Commonwealth of grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties...

Louisiana 1921, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Louisiana, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy.

Maine 1820, Preamble. We the People of Maine acknowledging with grateful hearts the goodness of the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe in affording us an opportunity . and imploring His aid and direction.

Maryland 1776, Preamble. We, the people of the state of Maryland, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberty...

Massachusetts 1780, Preamble. We...the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging with grateful hearts, the goodness of the Great Legislator of the Universe ... in the course of His Providence, an opportunity .and devoutly imploring His direction

Michigan 1908, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Michigan, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of freedom . establish this Constitution

Minnesota, 1857, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Minnesota, grateful to God for our civil and religious liberty, and desiring to perpetuate its blessings

Mississippi 1890, Preamble. We, the people of Mississippi in convention assembled, grateful to Almighty God, and invoking His blessing on our work.

Missouri 1845, Preamble. We, the people of Missouri, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and grateful for His goodness . establish this Constitution ..

Montana 1889, Preamble. We, the people of Montana, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty. establish this Constitution

Nebraska 1875, Preamble. We, the people, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom . establish this Constitution ..

Nevada 1864, Preamble. We the people of the State of Nevada, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom establish this Constitution ...

New Hampshire 1792, Part I. Art. I. Sec. V. Every individual has a natural and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience.

New Jersey 1844, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New Jersey, grateful to Almighty God for civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors

New Mexico 1911, Preamble. We, the People of New Mexico, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty .

New York 1846, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New York, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure its blessings.

North Carolina 1868, Preamble. We the people of the State of North Carolina, grateful to Almighty God, the Sovereign Ruler of Nations, for our civil, political, and religious liberties, and acknowledging our dependence upon Him for the continuance of those

North Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of North Dakota , grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, do ordain...

Ohio 1852, Preamble. We the people of the state of Ohio, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings and to promote our common

Oklahoma 1907, Preamble. Invoking the guidance of Almighty God, in order to secure and perpetuate the blessings of liberty . establish this

Oregon 1857, Bill of Rights, Article I. Section 2. All men shall be secure in the Natural right, to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their consciences..

Pennsylvania 1776, Preamble. We, the people of Pennsylvania, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly invoking His guidance.

Rhode Island 1842, Preamble. We the People of the State of Rhode Island grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing

South Carolina, 1778, Preamble We, the people of he State of South Carolina. grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this Constitution.

South Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of South Dakota , grateful to Almighty God for our civil! and religious liberties ... establish this

Tennessee 1796, Art. XI.III. That all men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their science...

Texas 1845, Preamble. We the People of the Republic of Texas, acknowledging, with gratitude, the grace and beneficence of God.

Utah 1896, Preamble. Grateful to Almighty God for life and liberty, we establish this Constitution

Vermont 1777, Preamble. Whereas all government ought to . enable the individuals who compose it to enjoy their natural rights, and other blessings which the Author of Existence has bestowed on man.

Virginia 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI .. Religion, or the Duty which we owe our Creator . can be directed only by Reason and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each other

Washington 1889, Preamble. We the People of the State of Washington, grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution .

West Virginia 1872, Preamble. Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West Virginia . reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God

Wisconsin 1848, Preamble. We, the people of Wisconsin, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, domestic tranquility .

Wyoming 1890, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Wyoming, grateful to God for our civil, political, and religious liberties .. establish this Constitution .

 

[marchare]

Hi, I think teaching kids patriotism is Great ! There should be more of it. Teaching Respect and Loyalty to the Flag is terrific !

President Eisenhower knew why “under God” was inserted: "From this day forward, the millions of our schoolchildren will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our nation and our people to the Almighty."
I like this:
I herby hold no allegiance to the Flag of The United States of America,
or to the Republic for which it stands, which like the Flag, is man-made,
with Power, Liberty, and Justice in proportion to net worth.
I do solemnly Pledge Allegiance to the People of my Nation, and to their Unalienable Rights,
which unlike flags and republics, are not man-made.

 

[Columbusite]

I got an interesting e-mail thins morning. After reviewing acknowledgments of God from all 50 state constitutions, one is faced with the prospect that maybe, just maybe, the ACLU and the out-of-control federal courts are wrong? While people always seem to KNOW what our "founding fathers" meant, maybe they should actually try to do just that. Maybe they did not intend for there to be a separation of God and state, as shown by the fact that all 50 states acknowledge God in their state constitutions. What does your state say? :shrug:


Alabama 1901, Preamble. We the people of the State of Alabama, invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution

Alaska 1956, Preamble. We, the people of Alaska, grateful to God and to those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land

Arizona 1911, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arizona, grateful to Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution...

Arkansas 1874, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arkansas, grateful to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government...

California 1879, Preamble. We, the People of the State of California, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom ..

Colorado 1876, Preamble. We, the people of Colorado, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of Universe.

Connecticut 1818, Preamble. The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy .

Delaware 1897, Preamble. Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature, the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the dictates of their consciences.

Florida 1885, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Florida, grateful to Almighty God for our constitutional liberty .. establish this constitution...

Georgia 1777, Preamble. We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution...

Hawaii 1959, Preamble. We, the people of Hawaii, Grateful for Divine Guidance . establish this Constitution.

Idaho 1889, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Idaho, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings .

Illinois 1870, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors.

Indiana 1851, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Indiana, grateful to Almighty God for the free exercise of the right to chose our form of government.

Iowa 1857, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Iowa, grateful to the Supreme Being for the blessings hitherto enjoyed, and feeling our dependence on Him for a continuation of these blessings establish this Constitution

Kansas 1859, Preamble. We, the people of Kansas, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious privileges ... establish this Constitution.

Kentucky 1891, Preamble. We, the people of the Commonwealth of grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties...

Louisiana 1921, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Louisiana, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy.

Maine 1820, Preamble. We the People of Maine acknowledging with grateful hearts the goodness of the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe in affording us an opportunity . and imploring His aid and direction.

Maryland 1776, Preamble. We, the people of the state of Maryland, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberty...

Massachusetts 1780, Preamble. We...the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging with grateful hearts, the goodness of the Great Legislator of the Universe ... in the course of His Providence, an opportunity .and devoutly imploring His direction

Michigan 1908, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Michigan, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of freedom . establish this Constitution

Minnesota, 1857, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Minnesota, grateful to God for our civil and religious liberty, and desiring to perpetuate its blessings

Mississippi 1890, Preamble. We, the people of Mississippi in convention assembled, grateful to Almighty God, and invoking His blessing on our work.

Missouri 1845, Preamble. We, the people of Missouri, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and grateful for His goodness . establish this Constitution ..

Montana 1889, Preamble. We, the people of Montana, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty. establish this Constitution

Nebraska 1875, Preamble. We, the people, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom . establish this Constitution ..

Nevada 1864, Preamble. We the people of the State of Nevada, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom establish this Constitution ...

New Hampshire 1792, Part I. Art. I. Sec. V. Every individual has a natural and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience.

New Jersey 1844, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New Jersey, grateful to Almighty God for civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors

New Mexico 1911, Preamble. We, the People of New Mexico, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty .

New York 1846, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New York, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure its blessings.

North Carolina 1868, Preamble. We the people of the State of North Carolina, grateful to Almighty God, the Sovereign Ruler of Nations, for our civil, political, and religious liberties, and acknowledging our dependence upon Him for the continuance of those

North Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of North Dakota , grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, do ordain...

Ohio 1852, Preamble. We the people of the state of Ohio, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings and to promote our common

Oklahoma 1907, Preamble. Invoking the guidance of Almighty God, in order to secure and perpetuate the blessings of liberty . establish this

Oregon 1857, Bill of Rights, Article I. Section 2. All men shall be secure in the Natural right, to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their consciences..

Pennsylvania 1776, Preamble. We, the people of Pennsylvania, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly invoking His guidance.

Rhode Island 1842, Preamble. We the People of the State of Rhode Island grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing

South Carolina, 1778, Preamble We, the people of he State of South Carolina. grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this Constitution.

South Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of South Dakota , grateful to Almighty God for our civil! and religious liberties ... establish this

Tennessee 1796, Art. XI.III. That all men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their science...

Texas 1845, Preamble. We the People of the Republic of Texas, acknowledging, with gratitude, the grace and beneficence of God.

Utah 1896, Preamble. Grateful to Almighty God for life and liberty, we establish this Constitution

Vermont 1777, Preamble. Whereas all government ought to . enable the individuals who compose it to enjoy their natural rights, and other blessings which the Author of Existence has bestowed on man.

Virginia 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI .. Religion, or the Duty which we owe our Creator . can be directed only by Reason and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each other

Washington 1889, Preamble. We the People of the State of Washington, grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution .

West Virginia 1872, Preamble. Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West Virginia . reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God

Wisconsin 1848, Preamble. We, the people of Wisconsin, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, domestic tranquility .

Wyoming 1890, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Wyoming, grateful to God for our civil, political, and religious liberties .. establish this Constitution .

Preambles hold no legal weight. :3oops:

 

[MSgt]

Preambles hold no legal weight. :3oops:

I didn't say anything about legal. I said...."Maybe our past did not intend for there to be a separation of God and state, as shown by the fact that all 50 states acknowledge God in their state constitutions.":3oops:

 

[Columbusite]

I didn't say anything about legal. I said...."Maybe our past did not intend for there to be a separation of God and state, as shown by the fact that all 50 states acknowledge God in their state constitutions.":3oops:

Of course it's legal. The preambles of the state constitutions are not what we base laws on, that is our Constitution, not preambles of state constitutions. The Constitution is free of any mention of God (done on purpose), therefore separation of church and state still stand as intended. No state could possibly override separation by citing their preamble to enact theocratic government at odds with the federal one. Preambles mean nothing, unlike the pledge which was signed into law, and are not actually in the state constitutions which means they carry no power. That's why they're called preambles, they come before the state constitution. They are not laws and do nothing to bring down the wall of separation. Without that wall we would not and could not exist as a free nation, it would just be impossible.

 

[MSgt]

Of course it's legal. The preambles of the state constitutions are not what we base laws on, that is our Constitution, not preambles of state constitutions. The Constitution is free of any mention of God (done on purpose), therefore separation of church and state still stand as intended. No state could possibly override separation by citing their preamble to enact theocratic government at odds with the federal one. Preambles mean nothing, unlike the pledge which was signed into law, and are not actually in the state constitutions which means they carry no power. That's why they're called preambles, they come before the state constitution. They are not laws and do nothing to bring down the wall of separation. Without that wall we would not and could not exist as a free nation, it would just be impossible.

Like I said....I said nothing about "legal." This was your word. I merely mentioned something for all of the "founding fathers" interpreters out there.

 

[TheBigC]

In a PUBLIC school it's more difficult to do since other religous/non-religious holiday songs would have to be allowed, but it probably wouldn't be impossible. It'd be a whole lot easier if a church was the setting. Let's try to stick with the pledge which is the issue here. You have not even given me a reason as to why it should or should not be changed or kept at all.

I'll open with the exact quote from the Constitution: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. " Article 1, Amendments to the Constitution of the United States of America

So, Congress can't make a law prohibiting the free exercise of religion. And, Congress can't make a law establishing a religion.

I'll take a two-pronged approach. First, no law says you must recite the pledge, so Congress has not violated the First Amendment. Also, you don't have to recite the pledge, so your own First Amendment right hasn't been violated. Furthermore, even if children were legally compelled to recite the Pledge, no specific God is mentioned. You are still free to believe in whatever God you choose.

My second approach is a more fine-grained one. The language in the Article states that the free exercise of religion cannot be prohibited. Belief in no God is not a religion. It is no religion. It is the absense of religion. Atheists by default are not protected by that language since they do not recognize the existence of any God. I cannot be protected by a law if I am not in the group for whom the law applies... I can't argue that the guy who mugged me should be prosecuted under murder laws because there should be equal treatment under the law! I wasn't murdered, so I cannot seek relief under laws and codes governing murder. Similarly, someone who neither believes in nor recognizes a religion cannot claim relief under a clause in the Constitution meant to protect people of *faith*!

 

[Columbusite]

I'll open with the exact quote from the Constitution: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. " Article 1, Amendments to the Constitution of the United States of America

So, Congress can't make a law prohibiting the free exercise of religion. And, Congress can't make a law establishing a religion.

I'll take a two-pronged approach. First, no law says you must recite the pledge, so Congress has not violated the First Amendment. Also, you don't have to recite the pledge, so your own First Amendment right hasn't been violated. Furthermore, even if children were legally compelled to recite the Pledge, no specific God is mentioned. You are still free to believe in whatever God you choose.

My second approach is a more fine-grained one. The language in the Article states that the free exercise of religion cannot be prohibited. Belief in no God is not a religion. It is no religion. It is the absense of religion. Atheists by default are not protected by that language since they do not recognize the existence of any God. I cannot be protected by a law if I am not in the group for whom the law applies... I can't argue that the guy who mugged me should be prosecuted under murder laws because there should be equal treatment under the law! I wasn't murdered, so I cannot seek relief under laws and codes governing murder. Similarly, someone who neither believes in nor recognizes a religion cannot claim relief under a clause in the Constitution meant to protect people of *faith*!

So you are saying that there is freedom of religion, not from? Because you can't have freedom of religion without freedom from religion. Congress signed a bill into law to add that phrase in the pledge. That is government endorsement of religion which is unconstitutional.

 

[Columbusite]

Like I said....I said nothing about "legal." This was your word. I merely mentioned something for all of the "founding fathers" interpreters out there.

You didn't have to, but that is what it boils down to:laws, and what we base them on. I don't see what state preambles and the founding fathers have to do with each other.

I didn't say anything about legal. I said...."Maybe our past did not intend for there to be a separation of God and state, as shown by the fact that all 50 states acknowledge God in their state constitutions."

If this were true, that we do not have separation of church and state, our laws would look totally different. I was making the point that separation of church/God and state was intended as He is not present in the Constitution. Preambles in state constitutions do nothing to change this. I hope I've made thing clearer.