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The Pledge of Allegiance

SpheryEyne

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I pledge allegiance to the flag
of the United States of America,
and to the republic for which it stands:
one nation,
under God,
indivisible,
with liberty and justice for all.


Every morning, in schools all across America, children stand up, face the flag, and recite these words. Recently, however, the practice of having it said in public schools has come under fire because it contains the words "under God," which were added in 1954. One of the main criticisms of these two little words is that they violate the "establishment" clause of the First Amendment, which states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion".

What are your views on the Pledge? Should "under God" remain or be removed from it? Should the Pledge be recited in public schools or not? Why do you believe the way you do?

:) SE
 

26 X World Champs

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SpheryEyne said:
I pledge allegiance to the flag
of the United States of America,
and to the republic for which it stands:
one nation,
under God,
indivisible,
with liberty and justice for all.


Every morning, in schools all across America, children stand up, face the flag, and recite these words. Recently, however, the practice of having it said in public schools has come under fire because it contains the words "under God," which were added in 1954. One of the main criticisms of these two little words is that they violate the "establishment" clause of the First Amendment, which states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". :) SE
The under God should be optional, meaning that the school omits it but if an individual student wants to include it that is cool. All that would take is for the sturdent's parents to teach him/her to include under God.

However, for those out there who for whatever their reason is, do not believe in God or do not believe in envoking God's name in a government institution they should not have it forced upon them.
 

Schweddy

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26 X World Champs said:
The under God should be optional, meaning that the school omits it but if an individual student wants to include it that is cool. All that would take is for the sturdent's parents to teach him/her to include under God.

However, for those out there who for whatever their reason is, do not believe in God or do not believe in envoking God's name in a government institution they should not have it forced upon them.
I agree. It should not be forced on anyone!

It should not be removed either. It is part of our culture and history.
 

Squawker

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I think it is great if schools still say the pledge, but "under God" should be up to the student. The words don't hurt anyone though, so I don't know what the big stink is about. Kids don't know what they believe at that age.
 
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I don't think it was necessary to add "under God," but now that it is there, I have little problem with it. And I do feel that the pledge should be optional. Many of my classmates don't even stand up for the pledge. I feel an obligation to, but that's my individual choice and shouldn't be forced on anyone else.
 

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26 X World Champs said:
The under God should be optional, meaning that the school omits it but if an individual student wants to include it that is cool. All that would take is for the sturdent's parents to teach him/her to include under God.

However, for those out there who for whatever their reason is, do not believe in God or do not believe in envoking God's name in a government institution they should not have it forced upon them.
Every student has the first Ammendment Right to say Under God or under Santa if he/she chooses.

The issue as I understand it is that the school as a public institution may not lead the pledge with under God as a part of the recitation. The school, everyone's institution woulod then be endorsing the religious belief or superstitions of some, but not necessarily all, of the students.

The same is true with prayer every citizen, children included may pray as much as they like. They may not however disrupt the classroom.
Most of the problems occur when a teacher or administrator fearful of critisism makes an arbitrary decision.
 

Squawker

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Many of my classmates don't even stand up for the pledge. I feel an obligation to, but that's my individual choice and shouldn't be forced on anyone else.
Standing up is a show of respect for our country, our ancestors, and our heritage. If young people disrespect their parents, they would also show disrespect in the classroom. They need a kick in pants IMO.
 

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Squawker said:
Standing up is a show of respect for our country, our ancestors, and our heritage. If young people disrespect their parents, they would also show disrespect in the classroom. They need a kick in pants IMO.

/agree

Enforcing a little dicipline now can go a long way to saving a child some headaches in the future.
 

SpheryEyne

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myshkin said:
The issue as I understand it is that the school as a public institution may not lead the pledge with under God as a part of the recitation. The school, everyone's institution woulod then be endorsing the religious belief or superstitions of some, but not necessarily all, of the students.
I don't know how this works at other schools around the country, but in my high school the Pledge is recited over the loudspeaker every Monday morning ("under God" included) and students who choose to say it can do so.

Squawker said:
Standing up is a show of respect for our country, our ancestors, and our heritage. If young people disrespect their parents, they would also show disrespect in the classroom. They need a kick in pants IMO.
I am one of those students who do not stand up and recite the Pledge. I've gotten some insults thrown at me ("un-American," "anti-flag," "ingrate") by people who cannot comprehend that someone would abstain from speaking the Pledge unless they hated America. Last term I was in a great minority of those still seated during the recitation; this term over half my class remains in their seats. I don't think this shows disrespect for our country, our ancestors, and our heritage; on the contrary, we are simply exercising our Constitutional right to free speech, which does include symbolic speech.

Although I myself don't stand for the Pledge, I am all for having it said in schools. I understand why many people would wish to say it, and as long as it's not mandated by the schools and kids aren't ostracized for refusing to stand, this part of American history has its place in our public schools.

:) SE
 

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I don't think this shows disrespect for our country, our ancestors, and our heritage; on the contrary, we are simply exercising our Constitutional right to free speech, which does include symbolic speech.
That is probably because your parents didn’t teach you manners. Back in the old days, men of social standing stood up when a woman walked into the room out of respect. Our social customs have become extinct. Are we better off because the “elders” stopped teaching the next generation what is proper and respectful behavior? I don’t think so.
 

SpheryEyne

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I agree that manners are important. And yes, I think my parents did as good a job as any teaching me and my brothers to be courteous and respectful of other people.

But in what context does the "good manners" argument apply to my situation? I make a conscious decision not to stand for the Pledge not because it is my intention to be disrespectful or rude to other people, nor to my country, but because I do not believe in swearing loyalty to a piece of cloth which does not in any way represent the living country of the United States. Nor will I condone what I believe to be a lie through my participation in the mindless repetition of that lie.

Patriotism is a sensitive issue, I know. I understand why some people believe me "anti-American" for not standing for the Pledge. I wish it wasn't so, but I will accept it and move on.

SE
 

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SpheryEyne said:
I agree that manners are important. And yes, I think my parents did as good a job as any teaching me and my brothers to be courteous and respectful of other people.

But in what context does the "good manners" argument apply to my situation? I make a conscious decision not to stand for the Pledge not because it is my intention to be disrespectful or rude to other people, nor to my country, but because I do not believe in swearing loyalty to a piece of cloth which does not in any way represent the living country of the United States. Nor will I condone what I believe to be a lie through my participation in the mindless repetition of that lie.

Patriotism is a sensitive issue, I know. I understand why some people believe me "anti-American" for not standing for the Pledge. I wish it wasn't so, but I will accept it and move on.

SE
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Are you pledging allegiance to the cloth or to the Republic for which it stands or just habitually repeating words?

Personally I agree with you that there are many times that the Flag-symbol-cloth is treated as an idol.

However the pledge puts the symbolism into proper context 'and to the Republic for which it stands'.

Personally I find it easier to just go along with the crowd.
 

ShamMol

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myshkin said:
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Are you pledging allegiance to the cloth or to the Republic for which it stands or just habitually repeating words?

Personally I agree with you that there are many times that the Flag-symbol-cloth is treated as an idol.

However the pledge puts the symbolism into proper context 'and to the Republic for which it stands'.

Personally I find it easier to just go along with the crowd.
I guess that I just don't see why two little words are so necessary, especially considering they weren't in there with our founding fathers. It was only put into place to fight communism. So, in fact it isn't part of history and was only put in there for purely political reasons...i don't want to stand for political reasons.
 

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Yes, A matter indeed.

If you actually look up the word "God" You'll find many definitions

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=God

1. God
1. A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
2. The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.
2. A being of supernatural powers or attributes, believed in and worshiped by a people, especially a male deity thought to control some part of nature or reality.
3. An image of a supernatural being; an idol.
4. One that is worshiped, idealized, or followed: Money was their god.
5. A very handsome man.
6. A powerful ruler or despot.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=God&x=0&y=0

Main Entry: 1god
Pronunciation: 'gäd also 'god
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English; akin to Old High German got god
1 capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshiped as creator and ruler of the universe b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
2 : a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality
3 : a person or thing of supreme value
4 : a powerful ruler

I am pretty darn sure that they intended "god" to be the Christian Religion "god" and nothing more or less. This can't be prove to the point where we'd have to take it out, since it has a huge definition.

Both definitions point out that "god" could be mean to describe a different being other than Yahweh (correct if need be).

As many of you all said, it does go against our 1st Amendment right.. but I believe it should be optional.. as for the rest of the pledge.
 

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Squawker said:
That is probably because your parents didn’t teach you manners. Back in the old days, men of social standing stood up when a woman walked into the room out of respect. Our social customs have become extinct. Are we better off because the “elders” stopped teaching the next generation what is proper and respectful behavior? I don’t think so.
Squawker, what century were you born in?
 

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SpheryEyne said:
I agree that manners are important. And yes, I think my parents did as good a job as any teaching me and my brothers to be courteous and respectful of other people.

But in what context does the "good manners" argument apply to my situation? I make a conscious decision not to stand for the Pledge not because it is my intention to be disrespectful or rude to other people, nor to my country, but because I do not believe in swearing loyalty to a piece of cloth which does not in any way represent the living country of the United States. Nor will I condone what I believe to be a lie through my participation in the mindless repetition of that lie.

Patriotism is a sensitive issue, I know. I understand why some people believe me "anti-American" for not standing for the Pledge. I wish it wasn't so, but I will accept it and move on.

SE
I respecfully think this is wrong. Look at the opposite end, without that flag and the 'Republic for which is stands' - you would not be able to make that choice. Yes, the "good manners" argument applies. It is as though you are spitting in the face of all the soldiers that have died defending the ideas (not the flag itself) 'for which is stands'.

The flag is as you said is just a piece of cloth that will get old and moldy with age. If one does not respect the symbolism, our government and way of life will do the same. Your ability to make that choice will cease to exist.

While I do believe your intentions are indeed patriotic, they are equally shallow.

"I pledge allegience to the flag" is not neccesarily swearing loyalty, it is paying respect. A synonym for allegience is fidelity. Are you against the ideas of the US and more faithful toward another country? Infidelity is unpatriotic to any nation.
 

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vauge said:
I respecfully think this is wrong. Look at the opposite end, without that flag and the 'Republic for which is stands' - you would not be able to make that choice. Yes, the "good manners" argument applies. It is as though you are spitting in the face of all the soldiers that have died defending the ideas (not the flag itself) 'for which is stands'.

The flag is as you said is just a piece of cloth that will get old and moldy with age. If one does not respect the symbolism, our government and way of life will do the same. Your ability to make that choice will cease to exist.

While I do believe your intentions are indeed patriotic, they are equally shallow.

"I pledge allegience to the flag" is not neccesarily swearing loyalty, it is paying respect. A synonym for allegience is fidelity. Are you against the ideas of the US and more faithful toward another country? Infidelity is unpatriotic to any nation.
If I were a spy / traitor / whatever I would of course stand so as not to attract attention to myself. So what does not standing prove? :confused:

I find this kind of patriotism weird and not a little scary, and it appears to be a bit like brain-washing.
 

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Naughty Nurse said:
I find this kind of patriotism weird and not a little scary, and it appears to be a bit like brain-washing.
It's called respect.
It's called loving your country.
It's called enjoying and living that freedom.
It's called appreciation for the gift of the US to its citizens.
It's called dignity and citizen self esteem.
It's called honoring the men and women whom have died defending this great nation.
Most of all, it's called integrity.

You have the freedom NOT to say it. Just as I have the freedom to think that folks that do not even stand do not deserve the freedoms they demand. When parents teach their kids about manners - this should be the first thing. It goes along the lines of respecting ones elders.

The words do not even have to make sense. But, if one cannot at least recognize that folks died so that we are a free nation (even forget about the under God part), it is insulting to everything that we stand for. Every soldier that has died in Iraq, every soldier that has died in Viet Nam, every soldier that has died in all our wars - are being crusified just to give the ability NOT to stand or say it.

The same people that refuse to acknowledge the symbol of the flag are the same folks that are destroying this country. The same folks that demand inherent freedom but are too lazy to do anything about it but b*tch. The same folks that spit on our absolutes - like freedom of speech and freedom from a tyranical government. The same folks that refuse to use their power of voting. The same folks that shout "woe is me" with insistance that they be given something because of their lack of will. The same folks that believe that they are making a positive statement, but that statement is really F**K you to the United States and to thier own grandparents.

Standing for the pledge is simply saying "Thank you".
 
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Naughty and Garza.... what is scary or outdated about respect? Frankly I don't understand what is wrong with holding a door, standing when an older person or some other deserving individual enters the room?

I am obviously one of the most outspoken anti-religion people on this forum, yet if I must go to a wedding or funeral at a church I will stand when required out of respect for the person(s) I am there supporting. I don't believe the crap they are spewing, but I believe in my friends and respect their feelings.

The pledge does smack of a quasi "prayer", but if left in it's original form - without "Under God", it is nothing more than an affirmation of ones citizenship. As Vauge said, quite possibly a symbol of thanks for the benefits afforded by living in a successful democracy. Garza, I am particulary suprised at you since you were quick to jump on me when I made a snied comment about "God save the Queen"... is your nationalism anymore valid that Americas? Why is you anthem imploring "God" to save an antiquated mediveal feudal symbol, more rational that the Pledge of Allegiance? I think your Queen should retire and the "royal" family should take their lazy as*es and get a job!
 

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Very good points, vauge and Contrarian. :good_job:
 

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Contrarian said:
Why is you anthem imploring "God" to save an antiquated mediveal feudal symbol, more rational that the Pledge of Allegiance? I think your Queen should retire and the "royal" family should take their lazy as*es and get a job!
Well said, and I agree entirely!

However, one point that seems to be shared by you people on that side of the pond is that people should stand and recite (presumably parrot-fashion) the pledge of allegiance because people died so that they could choose not to do that. In which case people died for nothing because they effectively don't have that choice.

Or am I misunderstanding (which is very possible).
 

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ShamMol said:
I guess that I just don't see why two little words are so necessary, especially considering they weren't in there with our founding fathers. It was only put into place to fight communism. So, in fact it isn't part of history and was only put in there for purely political reasons...i don't want to stand for political reasons.
So if you claim that the pledge is fine, but the "under god" part is political, then why don't you just stand for the pledge, but not say "under god?"
 

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SpheryEyne said:
Although I myself don't stand for the Pledge, I am all for having it said in schools. I understand why many people would wish to say it, and as long as it's not mandated by the schools and kids aren't ostracized for refusing to stand, this part of American history has its place in our public schools.

:) SE
Very well said! :2dance:
 

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Squawker said:
That is probably because your parents didn’t teach you manners. Back in the old days, men of social standing stood up when a woman walked into the room out of respect. Our social customs have become extinct. Are we better off because the “elders” stopped teaching the next generation what is proper and respectful behavior? I don’t think so.
What right do you have to judge him or his parents? Teaching anyone freedom of speech is a lot more valuable than standing up for a hokey pledge.

Where I come from reciting the pledge of allegiance doesn't make you a patriot or a respectful person. Where I come from the way you live your life and the respect that you show other people is a better barometer of someone's respect. It's so Archie Bunker-like to suggest that the 'pledge' is a way to judge someone.

How about on of my favorite BS slogans?

"America, love it or leave it!" The obvious logic that if you don't love America you should leave is as stupid as judging someone negatively for not standing up or reciting the Pledge of Allegiance! DUMB, DUMB, DUMB!

:boohoo:

I think you show disrespect for someone and for the intelligence of our nation by suggesting that NOT standing or NOT saying something is wrong! You know, in Nazi Germany everyone stood and saluted and recited a pledge of allegiance too.
 
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