THE PANIC OVER TRANS SPORTS INCLUSION

[Spock]

Show me one professional female track and field athlete at the international level who is better or equal than a male at the same professional level.

some male v female world records:

100m
Male 9.58
Women 10.49 (probably using drugs and dodgy wind recording)

200m
Male 19.19
Female 21.34 (probably using drugs)

400m
Male 43.03
Female 47.60

Shotput
Male 23.56m
Female 22.63m (USSR, likely drug enhanced)

Javelin
Male 98.48m
Female 72.28

There are many men who cannot beat females in certain sports. Some sports, for example equestrian events, males and females compete equally.

 

[MrNiceGuy]

Children do not produce eggs or sperm; surgical changes or trauma can eliminate various parts of reproductive organs; metabolic changes can influence organ development. Certain individuals can be XY/XX mosaic; XXY; XXX; or XYY and many other variations. How do you explain the natural sexual attraction for members of the same sex? The world is far more complex than your simple ideas would support.

There are still only two sexes. All those folks are either male or femaie - having surgery to remove one's organs doesn't change one's sex. Having a genetic disorder doesn't change sex. There is no third or fourth sex.

 

[Spock]

Would you be in favor then of integrating every league? No separation between the sexes? One basketball league? One track-and-field competition? etc...

In reality, probably the equitable standards for competition would be to have categorization based upon lean body mass, aerobic capacity, and mechanical measures such as height or limb length in those sports such as track and field, swimming, and running.

 

[Spock]

There are still only two sexes. All those folks are either male or femaie - having surgery to remove one's organs doesn't change one's sex. Having a genetic disorder doesn't change sex. There is no third or fourth sex.

It is a self-fulfilling tautology-- define sex as two entities and only two entities can have specific sex characteristics.
I think that fear of change motivates a lot of the opposition to transwomen athletics.
Probably the same people who were opposed to gay marriage, racial integration, miscegenation, or adoption by gay couples are opposed to transgender issues.

 

[CLAX1911]

In reality, probably the equitable standards for competition would be to have categorization based upon lean body mass, aerobic capacity, and mechanical measures such as height or limb length in those sports such as track and field, swimming, and running.

They have that. The biggest divide is on the basis of sex so that's one example. Then you have varsity, Junior varsity, whatever is beneath that in high school sports

You have weight classes in boxing

We've already done all of this

 

[CLAX1911]

There are still only two sexes. All those folks are either male or femaie - having surgery to remove one's organs doesn't change one's sex. Having a genetic disorder doesn't change sex. There is no third or fourth sex.

I'll never understand the argument that sex isn't binary because a rare generic anomaly effects males and females.

XXY XXY XXXXXXXXXXXY XYY XYY XYYYYYYYYY Are all going to be male. The Y=male absence of Y equals not male/female so X, XX, XXX, XXXX, XO, XWLPDFCN578@$*&-646 = Not male.

I say not male because male is a development that happens in the womb.

 

[MrNiceGuy]

Simple answers are convenient, glib, easy to remember and typically wrong.

Interestingly, so are overly complex, turgid, incoherent babble answers, which ultimately do not mean anything.

Humans belong to a species of primate, a type of mammal, and like all primates, our species have two sexes. Not three. Two. Human psychology may certainly "identify" as infinite things, and there are people who identify as animals, fantastical creatures, things they call genders like "paleogender" or "ambigender" or "gender queer" or "gender outlaw" or whatever, and sure, some humans have a psychological aspect where they believe they feel like a woman or a man when they are male or female, and some say they feel like both, some neither, some alternating, whatever - these are not sexes. These are psychological identities. It's fine to have them. They may be dysphoric about it, or maybe not. But, they are not a different sex. And that's ok. They are still humans. They are still people. Nobody is "erasing their existence." They are free to self-identify as whatever they want.

Me? I am male. i do not "identify as male." I am male. Biologically. If I was in an accident and put in a coma, I would still be male. When I die and get put in the ground, and archeologists dig me up in 500 years, they will see that I am male. It matters not what I think about it. I do not identify as any gender identity. I am not "cis" gender. I am only male. My only "identity" is who I am - my name is [first and last name] and I have a complex personality of moods, mannerisms, tics, proclivities, predliections, desires, faults, qualities, whatever. That's my identity. I do not identify as a man. I am a man, defined as adult human male. I cannot say how a man or woman feels -- nobody can - be cause we only know how we ourselves as individuals feel.

We can certainly feel more or less manly. We can feel more or less masculine, as those terms are defined in our language, but that isn't what makes one a man or woman. Although I am male, I have a fondness for cooking, and for cleaning the house, and I like to go grocery shpping. These are tasks normally associated with women. But, I dig them. Am I a woman, then? According to the gender ideology, the answer to that question is "if you feel like a woman, yes" - I am not a woman because I meet any particularly criteria - according to the gender ideology folks I am a woman if I say I feel like a woman. So, I can be and act very very manly, but if I say I feel like a woman, then I'm a woman. That's fine, I'd be free to do that, but it still doesn't change my sex.

Since one's gender is not testable - it's not determinable by anyone watching me, examining me, or running any test. Nobody can look at my brain or dissect me, or check dna, or anything and determine my gender - and since the only criteria for knowing a person's gender is their psychological self-identification, it's no different than any other part of our personalities. A person who feels like a woman feels womany (however that person individually feels). I.e., one person may feel what the dictionary definition describes as hypermasculine and another person may feel what the dictionary definition describes as hyper-feminine - both of them may "identify" as a woman or a man, or both or neither, or alternating. And they're free to do that, but none of it makes any objective sense. The words have lost all meaning, because they only mean what any individual person says they mean at the time and those meanings are subject to constant change.

 

[CLAX1911]

It is a self-fulfilling tautology-- define sex as two entities and only two entities can have specific sex characteristics.

Pick up a biology text book. Male= small gametes, female=large gametes. There is no spectrum here. Nobody produces a sperg or a spegg

I think that fear of change motivates a lot of the opposition to transwomen athletics.

Men in women's athletic competitions eliminates women's athletic competitions. Deluded men should participate with other men only regardless of their delusion

Probably the same people who were opposed to gay marriage, racial integration, miscegenation, or adoption by gay couples are opposed to transgender issues.

Doubtful gay men didn't want to dominate women's athletics.

Letting men participate in women's athletics because they claim to be women is like letting men compete in dog shows because they say they are dogs.

 

[MrNiceGuy]

In reality, probably the equitable standards for competition would be to have categorization based upon lean body mass, aerobic capacity, and mechanical measures such as height or limb length in those sports such as track and field, swimming, and running.

In reality, this is impossible. You can make a category, certainly, with one of those variables, but two or more of those variables? How many subdivisions of competition are you going to have?

Say you do limb lenght, right? Take boxing - let's say we use the classic 8 weight categories. Now you're going to add limb length to the variables. So you have, T-Rex, short, medium, long, and Albatross. But, many heavyweights will have shorter arms, and many welterweights will have longer arms - so which division do they go in? Are we gong to say that welterweights can box each other only if tehy are in the same limb class also? Do you have to match all the same classes? So you now want 5 new classes -- and now instead of just dividing the sexes and then by weight, we now have no division by sexes, but now we go by weight, height, limb length, aerobic capacity, and lean body mass, and two competitors can only compete with each other if all their measurements are in the same range in every one of those 5 measurement classes?
s

 

[donhughesmusic]

There are many men who cannot beat females in certain sports. Some sports, for example equestrian events, males and females compete equally.

Look at the IAU World Record Performances. The men's times are all better than the womens times.

Ultramarathon - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I keep showing you actual numbers. Yet you have produced zero record in sport where the womens record is better than the mens.

You also didn't answer my previous question. Do you think then that mens and womens sports should all be integrated?

 

[Spock]

They have that. The biggest divide is on the basis of sex so that's one example. Then you have varsity, Junior varsity, whatever is beneath that in high school sports

You have weight classes in boxing

We've already done all of this

You do not really understand sports, do you?

 

[Spock]

Interestingly, so are overly complex, turgid, incoherent babble answers, which ultimately do not mean anything.

Humans belong to a species of primate, a type of mammal, and like all primates, our species have two sexes. Not three. Two. Human psychology may certainly "identify" as infinite things, and there are people who identify as animals, fantastical creatures, things they call genders like "paleogender" or "ambigender" or "gender queer" or "gender outlaw" or whatever, and sure, some humans have a psychological aspect where they believe they feel like a woman or a man when they are male or female, and some say they feel like both, some neither, some alternating, whatever - these are not sexes. These are psychological identities. It's fine to have them. They may be dysphoric about it, or maybe not. But, they are not a different sex. And that's ok. They are still humans. They are still people. Nobody is "erasing their existence." They are free to self-identify as whatever they want.

Me? I am male. i do not "identify as male."

Actually, you do identify as male, apparently.

I am male. Biologically. If I was in an accident and put in a coma, I would still be male.

How would you identify as a male?

When I die and get put in the ground, and archeologists dig me up in 500 years, they will see that I am male. It matters not what I think about it. I do not identify as any gender identity. I am not "cis" gender. I am only male. My only "identity" is who I am - my name is [first and last name] and I have a complex personality of moods, mannerisms, tics, proclivities, predliections, desires, faults, qualities, whatever. That's my identity. I do not identify as a man. I am a man, defined as adult human male. I cannot say how a man or woman feels -- nobody can - be cause we only know how we ourselves as individuals feel.

Clearly you have decided that you are male. Congratulations, you are superior to all females. Have you had your chromosomes checked? What would you be if you were XXY, XYY, or mosaic XY,XX?

We can certainly feel more or less manly. We can feel more or less masculine, as those terms are defined in our language, but that isn't what makes one a man or woman. Although I am male, I have a fondness for cooking, and for cleaning the house, and I like to go grocery shpping. These are tasks normally associated with women. But, I dig them. Am I a woman, then? According to the gender ideology, the answer to that question is "if you feel like a woman, yes" - I am not a woman because I meet any particularly criteria - according to the gender ideology folks I am a woman if I say I feel like a woman. So, I can be and act very very manly, but if I say I feel like a woman, then I'm a woman. That's fine, I'd be free to do that, but it still doesn't change my sex.

Since one's gender is not testable - it's not determinable by anyone watching me, examining me, or running any test. Nobody can look at my brain or dissect me, or check dna, or anything and determine my gender - and since the only criteria for knowing a person's gender is their psychological self-identification, it's no different than any other part of our personalities. A person who feels like a woman feels womany (however that person individually feels). I.e., one person may feel what the dictionary definition describes as hypermasculine and another person may feel what the dictionary definition describes as hyper-feminine - both of them may "identify" as a woman or a man, or both or neither, or alternating. And they're free to do that, but none of it makes any objective sense. The words have lost all meaning, because they only mean what any individual person says they mean at the time and those meanings are subject to constant change.

Get some education about this subject because your opinions are thoroughly infused with lack of sophistication and understanding.

 

[Spock]

Look at the IAU World Record Performances. The men's times are all better than the womens times.

Ultramarathon - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I keep showing you actual numbers. Yet you have produced zero record in sport where the womens record is better than the mens.

look at ultramarthons

You also didn't answer my previous question. Do you think then that mens and womens sports should all be integrated?

I don't really care one way or the other. I did propose a more physiological metric for sports which you did not seem to understand.

 

[CLAX1911]

You do not really understand sports, do you?

This discussion is more about biology.

 

[Spock]

This discussion is more about biology.

and, yet, you think you can argue biology when you seem to be completely fixated on record times in sports.
I recommend you learn a little about genetics, sexual development embryologically, and mental health.

 

[CLAX1911]

and, yet, you think you can argue biology when you seem to be completely fixated on record times in sports.
I recommend you learn a little about genetics, sexual development embryologically, and mental health.

You're the one trying to argue against biology.

 

[Spock]

You're the one trying to argue against biology.

I have no idea what you think "biology" proves. Biology is the study of life, in all its various forms which includes fluidity, bisexual organisms , intersexual conditions and fluctuations between male and female conditions within the same organism.

 

[CLAX1911]

I have no idea what you think "biology" proves.

Women generally are less strong and less agile than men.

It's also not what I think it is what is. You're simply in denial of that there's no arguing here you reject reality I can't help you with that

Biology is the study of life, in all its various forms which includes fluidity, bisexual organisms , intersexual conditions and fluctuations between male and female conditions within the same organism.

Humans being a sexually dimorphic organism within the spectrum of life fall within the study of life and part of that is the fact that the sexes are dimorphic particularly with regards to strength and agility the males in general have more prowess with it

 

[donhughesmusic]

look at ultramarthons

There are ultramarathons in there... but here are more... AGAIN the men are faster than the women (and go farther in the timed events, 12 hour, 24 hour)

IAU Records - IAU - International Association of Ultrarunners

iau-ultramarathon.org

 

[CLAX1911]

There are ultramarathons in there... but here are more... AGAIN the men are faster than the women (and go farther in the timed events, 12 hour, 24 hour)

IAU Records - IAU - International Association of Ultrarunners

iau-ultramarathon.org

I would be perfectly willing to accept that in one event women do better. But when it comes to powerlifting women can't touch men when it comes to sprinting women can't touch men they're not even close.

I'll give it to the ladies on the ultramarathons well done.

 

[Aristaeus]

You assert female inferiority but refuse to acknowledge your own comments.
The same arguments can be made that Asians or aboriginal peoples or pygmies. It is a false dichotomy.
Do you know that ultra-long distance running records are primarily held by women, that most professional basketball players are black, and that a disproportionate number of professional women's soccer players are lesbians?

None of those, with the exception of the long distance running, is down to biology.

Women being slower/less strong isn't inferiority, it's just a difference in biology.

Do you think humans are inferior to horses because we're slower?

 

[Aristaeus]

I'll never understand the argument that sex isn't binary because a rare generic anomaly effects males and females.

XXY XXY XXXXXXXXXXXY XYY XYY XYYYYYYYYY Are all going to be male. The Y=male absence of Y equals not male/female so X, XX, XXX, XXXX, XO, XWLPDFCN578@$*&-646 = Not male.

I say not male because male is a development that happens in the womb.

As a general rule, yes. One obvious exception would be women with Swyer Syndrome. They have XY chromosomes but are born with a vagina, uterus, womb, felopian tubes. With IVF they can get pregnant and give birth.

 

[donhughesmusic]

I would be perfectly willing to accept that in one event women do better. But when it comes to powerlifting women can't touch men when it comes to sprinting women can't touch men they're not even close.

I'll give it to the ladies on the ultramarathons well done.

Did you even look at the link? When you compare the records, the men are faster even at ultramarathon distances.

 

[Spock]

Women generally are less strong and less agile than men.

"Generally" is an excuse for pernicious discrimination. As in Asians are generally better at math; blacks generally have more rhythm; and women are generally better at housework.

It's also not what I think it is what is. You're simply in denial of that there's no arguing here you reject reality I can't help you with that

You cannot help yourself, so I do not expect you to help others.

Humans being a sexually dimorphic organism within the spectrum of life fall within the study of life and part of that is the fact that the sexes are dimorphic particularly with regards to strength and agility the males in general have more prowess with it

Your need for intolerance and protection from change will necessarily limit your ability to understand transgender issues.

 

[Spock]

None of those, with the exception of the long distance running, is down to biology.

Women being slower/less strong isn't inferiority, it's just a difference in biology.

Do you think humans are inferior to horses because we're slower?

Do you know what the actual topic here is?
If you do, please summarize it so that I know we are on the same page.