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The Panama Papers prove it: America can afford a universal basic income

Interesting idea coming from a guy in Singapore who I would think would know better. The Link really has nothing to do with the Panama Papers but rather a claim that there is 32 trillion out there for the "poor". OK, Let's start with the big countries first. China, average income $14,300 and 1.367 billion people. They need a bunch to get up to US standards let along Singapore's $87,500 average income. India. 1.251 billion with an average of $6,300. They need help. Indonesia. 226 million and $11,300 average income. Seems like that money is needed elsewhere. And we really should start in Congo. 79 million people with an average income of $800.

Of course, that would take away capital for investments but would provide a temporary relief, I guess.
Always amazed when the rich, i.e. Americans and people in Europe and Singapore, are worried about getting more money.
 
Except that isn't how it would work. But I suppose thinking that that is how a market economy would work is what leads people into the arms of the state.

So that's not how it would work? Are you saying that in the absence of a minimum wage, wages wouldn't go down? Our labor wouldn't be competing with cheap foreign labor? Tell me, how do you think it would work?
 
You don't have civil order 'which protects your wealth' if the mob can take from you what they wish. It is difficult for you, a liberal, to argue for the protection of the wealth of Peter when you are the champion of the power of Paul to take it, now isn't it. And yes, the defense of ones rights is indeed a selfish act. If you wish to be selfless and surrender your rights there are plenty of people and places on the globe that will gladly oblige. Best of luck

Spare me the helpless 1% act, please. There are far more laws in place that protect property than there are laws that protect the poor. There is no mob rattling your front gate. But there are thousands of American soldiers out there giving their lives to protect the interests of American businesses.
 
So that's not how it would work? Are you saying that in the absence of a minimum wage, wages wouldn't go down? Our labor wouldn't be competing with cheap foreign labor? Tell me, how do you think it would work?

Well, considering that places like McDonalds already offer wages above minimum should be evidence enough. Also, considering that the vast majority of the workforce already makes above the minimum wage shows is relative unimportance. I employ people. I pay well above minimum. Why do I do that? Because I am a nice guy? No, because market forces compel me to do so. If I offered minimum wage, no one would work for me. What I pay extra for is the skill level that is required to do the job I need done. But lets say wages for some jobs go down. So what? Its quit possible that a 16 year old clothing folder at Hollister isn't worth that much. Why should the state step in and set an arbitrary floor? It shouldn't.
 
Spare me the helpless 1% act, please. There are far more laws in place that protect property than there are laws that protect the poor. There is no mob rattling your front gate. But there are thousands of American soldiers out there giving their lives to protect the interests of American businesses.

I didn't say they were helpless. I said they had rights--equal to your own. The wealth they have is their own and each dollar of the rich man deserves the equal protection of the last dollar of the poor man. As evidence by your response, you aren't interested in that sort of thing. You see money out there and want it for yourself or your own purposes. There is no virtue in that. The difference between you and me is I see the rich and respect their rights to keep what they have I don't pretend I have a claim to a penny of it. You see that same wealth as belonging to anyone but them. But no, the mob is not at the gates. The mob is more civilized. It elects politicians to do their dirty work for them
 
And nobody owes you civil order, which protects your wealth. It's a tradeoff. That you think you are entitled to such protection is not only pathetic, it's also selfish.
Civil order is something the wealthy pay for. The wealthy pay the vast majority of taxes in this country and that includes taxes for law enforcement. Now...are you referring to rebellion, anarchy, and violent civil disobedience? Cuz...you might want to rethink that.
 
Civil order is something the wealthy pay for. The wealthy pay the vast majority of taxes in this country and that includes taxes for law enforcement. Now...are you referring to rebellion, anarchy, and violent civil disobedience? Cuz...you might want to rethink that.

The wealthy, like every other income tier, pay taxes in very close proportion to their income. But they get an outsized share of protection - better neighborhoods, better access to political power, better access to education, etc.

When you say that "nobody owes you an existence," you seem to forget that civilization has been moving in the direction of more rights, not less, for thousands of years. We didn't come this far to revert back to a dog-eat-dog way of life, played out in a job market where the supply of labor far outstrips the demand for labor. It is a mistake to put the economy ahead of the people. The economy is a tool to move forward - it is not an end in itself. It is there to provide what people need; for an economic powerhouse like the U.S. to produce more than enough for everybody, yet prevent a large portion of the population from sharing in the riches, is a bit screwed up.

If we were observing a pack of wolves, where one or two wolves had far more kills than they could ever eat, while a large chunk of the pack was underfed, yet the pack was still protecting all of that food for the few/from the many, you would probably think that they had gone crazy, and that that behavior was unsustainable over the long run.
 
I didn't say they were helpless. I said they had rights--equal to your own. The wealth they have is their own and each dollar of the rich man deserves the equal protection of the last dollar of the poor man. As evidence by your response, you aren't interested in that sort of thing. You see money out there and want it for yourself or your own purposes. There is no virtue in that. The difference between you and me is I see the rich and respect their rights to keep what they have I don't pretend I have a claim to a penny of it. You see that same wealth as belonging to anyone but them. But no, the mob is not at the gates. The mob is more civilized. It elects politicians to do their dirty work for them

Yeah, politicians are really doing a fantastic job of advocating for the poor. Do you realize how ridiculous you sound when you say that kind of stuff?
 
Well, considering that places like McDonalds already offer wages above minimum should be evidence enough. Also, considering that the vast majority of the workforce already makes above the minimum wage shows is relative unimportance. I employ people. I pay well above minimum. Why do I do that? Because I am a nice guy? No, because market forces compel me to do so. If I offered minimum wage, no one would work for me. What I pay extra for is the skill level that is required to do the job I need done. But lets say wages for some jobs go down. So what? Its quit possible that a 16 year old clothing folder at Hollister isn't worth that much. Why should the state step in and set an arbitrary floor? It shouldn't.

If the minimum wage is barely a concern, then we shouldn't have nearly so many people without a job. Your theory, not mine.
 
Yeah, politicians are really doing a fantastic job of advocating for the poor. Do you realize how ridiculous you sound when you say that kind of stuff?
That's what you got out of what I wrote?
If the minimum wage is barely a concern, then we shouldn't have nearly so many people without a job. Your theory, not mine.
People who don't work today can survive by living off of those who do. That sort of thing shouldn't happen either. Now I await the typical, reflexive liberal response of 'people dying in the streets' that should make up the bulk of your next reply.
 
The wealthy, like every other income tier, pay taxes in very close proportion to their income. But they get an outsized share of protection - better neighborhoods, better access to political power, better access to education, etc.

When you say that "nobody owes you an existence," you seem to forget that civilization has been moving in the direction of more rights, not less, for thousands of years. We didn't come this far to revert back to a dog-eat-dog way of life, played out in a job market where the supply of labor far outstrips the demand for labor. It is a mistake to put the economy ahead of the people. The economy is a tool to move forward - it is not an end in itself. It is there to provide what people need; for an economic powerhouse like the U.S. to produce more than enough for everybody, yet prevent a large portion of the population from sharing in the riches, is a bit screwed up.

If we were observing a pack of wolves, where one or two wolves had far more kills than they could ever eat, while a large chunk of the pack was underfed, yet the pack was still protecting all of that food for the few/from the many, you would probably think that they had gone crazy, and that that behavior was unsustainable over the long run.

Please explain how you have a 'right' to something that belongs to someone else by right. Let me answer for you to save a little time: you cant. So you can drop the crap about society moving toward greater rights while you trample the rights of those you envy. What you, and virtually every other leftist means when they say the word 'rights' is actually 'privileges.' But go ahead and explain how you have a 'right' to the work of my hands or the product of my mind or my labor--which anyone with even a basic understand of the concept would recognize as things that belong to me, by right. That you want what belongs to someone else, and that you use the power and force of the state to acquire those things is not a sign of growing 'rights' but of growing despotism.
 
Please explain how you have a 'right' to something that belongs to someone else by right. Let me answer for you to save a little time: you cant. So you can drop the crap about society moving toward greater rights while you trample the rights of those you envy. What you, and virtually every other leftist means when they say the word 'rights' is actually 'privileges.' But go ahead and explain how you have a 'right' to the work of my hands or the product of my mind or my labor--which anyone with even a basic understand of the concept would recognize as things that belong to me, by right. That you want what belongs to someone else, and that you use the power and force of the state to acquire those things is not a sign of growing 'rights' but of growing despotism.

First of all, you can knock off the "envy" crapola. I don't know what you make, nor do I care, but I am doing better than most, and I pay plenty of taxes. I just don't feel paranoid about the mob coming to take it all away. You clowns that think everybody envies you are truly delusional.

As to your take on rights, rights are granted by the government, not God, so they are closer to privileges than you probably want to admit. Anyway, nobody is taking away your precious property rights. People that look on taxation as an infringement on their property rights are a special cross between amateur lawyers and right-wingnut militia types. You bleat on about your rights, but you have no clue what you are actually talking about. You owe society whatever portion of your income that society says you do; you are always free to make less if you don't like the arrangement. Or, as always, you are free to leave and find a better fit. But believing that you have rights over and above what the government agrees to grant you is just wishful thinking.
 
The wealthy, like every other income tier, pay taxes in very close proportion to their income. But they get an outsized share of protection - better neighborhoods, better access to political power, better access to education, etc.

When you say that "nobody owes you an existence," you seem to forget that civilization has been moving in the direction of more rights, not less, for thousands of years. We didn't come this far to revert back to a dog-eat-dog way of life, played out in a job market where the supply of labor far outstrips the demand for labor. It is a mistake to put the economy ahead of the people. The economy is a tool to move forward - it is not an end in itself. It is there to provide what people need; for an economic powerhouse like the U.S. to produce more than enough for everybody, yet prevent a large portion of the population from sharing in the riches, is a bit screwed up.

If we were observing a pack of wolves, where one or two wolves had far more kills than they could ever eat, while a large chunk of the pack was underfed, yet the pack was still protecting all of that food for the few/from the many, you would probably think that they had gone crazy, and that that behavior was unsustainable over the long run.
Your assertion that society is devolving to an ever increasingly large number of crippled dependent pets that feel entitled to the success and wealth of others is accurate.
 
I am pretty good at numbers, but that is beside the point, it has nothing to do with your wealth envy or fake righteousness.

Poor response to the pertinent question posed:
At what level of income is earning too much simply far too much?

You seem very much like so many Americans who think the economy is a football game. There are winners and losers, and so what? (That doctrine is called "fatalism").

I try to answer the question, "so what?" You avoid it.

Moving right along ...
 
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Please explain how you have a 'right' to something that belongs to someone else by right.

Look, what makes you think that just because you earn an income, regardless of how or how much, you "deserve" it all net-after-taxes? Because a flat-rate taxation is warped and unfair?

You perhaps never had a Civics Class that taught key-aspects of a market-economy, so permit me to explain that:
*You are participating in a market-economy along with (about) 156 million other workers.
*That market-economy has rules and regulations that are observed by all three main participants - that is Employers, Workers and Consumers. Most often, the number of Consumers is about equal to that of Employers and Workers. But, economically, the similarity stops there.
*We all have rights, some by means of laws, others are self-evident.
*Presently the law defining the Minimum Wage state-by-state in our country is a joke at about $15K per year, that is, 60% of the Poverty-Threshold value of $23K per year for a family of 4. Millions of families live below that level.
*That notion of unfairness does not sink-in to dense skulls of many members of the population, who have no sense whatsoever of community beyond their town or state. (Unless there is a personal tragedy - like a fire, a mass-murder, a flood, etc., etc., etc.)
*A national tragedy at the level of 50 million-people below the Poverty-Threshold eking out a miserable-existence is beyond your conception/understanding? Like many, perhaps you toss them aside as "deadbeats"?
*The top-end, or "super-rich", at .01 percent of the population, have an annual income of $9.5 million or more, which is about 5% of the total income of the United States in 2012.
*These 15,000 families do not "work"; because their financial assets produce Wealth. They have been characterized as the "richest of the rich" - and their income (taxed at barely 30%) gushes up to Wealth and Net Worth. Where only 11% of American families possess 88% of the nation's Net Worth* (= Wealth - Debt).
*That is the top-end of the scale, constituted of about only 60,000 people who are considered the "super-rich" because they need not work.
*The "simply-rich" are those who work-to-earn 1 million or more a year, and they are about 5% of all households (which is about 116 million families).

All this creation of riches happens, not because the rich and super-rich "work hard for it", but because unfair flat-taxation permits it (which was established by Reckless Ronnie in the 1980s).

Put upper-income taxation back to 90% as it was before LBJ stoopidly started tinkering with it for his Texan Friends in the 1960s; along with a system of Progressive Taxation, and the super-rich will remain at its present level.

Will that be a Great Crime Against Humanity? Nope, not at all. The super-rich will live comfortably on the Wealth they have already unfairly gained, and the New Order of Taxation will apply only to the super-rich wannabees.

So, the question remains, "If taxes are increased, what do we do with the money?" To which the partial answer is, "No, we don't buy a dozen flocks of Lockheed F-35s!"

We spend that money on:
*A National Health-Insurance System for the entire nation funded/managed by the Federal Government, and
*Subsidizing free-tuition at state-administered institutions of Post-secondary Education (vocational, 2- & 4-year).

And in that manner, we prepare the nation to overcome one of the worst Economic Dislocations that is occurring now, today, presently. That is, the passage from the Industrial to the Information Age, which will alter forever the way our market-economy generates income for 318 million Americans ...

*See Prof. Domhoff (U of Cal) pie-charts here.
 
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As to your take on rights, rights are granted by the government, not God, so they are closer to privileges than you probably want to admit. Anyway, nobody is taking away your precious property rights. People that look on taxation as an infringement on their property rights are a special cross between amateur lawyers and right-wingnut militia types. You bleat on about your rights, but you have no clue what you are actually talking about. You owe society whatever portion of your income that society says you do; you are always free to make less if you don't like the arrangement. Or, as always, you are free to leave and find a better fit. But believing that you have rights over and above what the government agrees to grant you is just wishful thinking.


Actually, you should know there are two different kinds of Rights. Positive and Negative rights. Negative Rights (what is seen as God given or inherent/inalienable) are basic fundamental rights in the US Constitution. Some of these negative rights are civil and political rights such as freedom of speech (allows all of us to have different opinions), life, private property, freedom from violent crime, freedom of religion, habeas corpus, a fair trial, freedom from slavery. Government can't take these rights from us, we can only give Government permission to "curb" some of them and have the right to reject Government's ability to do it at anytime.

Positive rights are rights Government makes up.. things like..economic, social and cultural rights such as food, housing, public education, employment, national security, military, health care, social security, internet access, and a minimum standard of living. These "rights" are ideas floated around today because of Karel Vasak.

JfC, Any taxation is infringement (maybe you should look up the definition of that word).
 
Actually, you should know there are two different kinds of Rights. Positive and Negative rights. Negative Rights (what is seen as God given or inherent/inalienable) are basic fundamental rights in the US Constitution. Some of these negative rights are civil and political rights such as freedom of speech (allows all of us to have different opinions), life, private property, freedom from violent crime, freedom of religion, habeas corpus, a fair trial, freedom from slavery. Government can't take these rights from us, we can only give Government permission to "curb" some of them and have the right to reject Government's ability to do it at anytime.

Positive rights are rights Government makes up.. things like..economic, social and cultural rights such as food, housing, public education, employment, national security, military, health care, social security, internet access, and a minimum standard of living. These "rights" are ideas floated around today because of Karel Vasak.

JfC, Any taxation is infringement (maybe you should look up the definition of that word).

Yes, those negative, "fundamental, God-given" rights as granted by the Constitution (that's government) are really no different. Granted not by God, but by a few strokes of the pen. Some of those govt.-granted rights are on a higher tier than others, but they are all govt.-granted. Otherwise, everybody around the globe would have the same rights.
 
Yes, those negative, "fundamental, God-given" rights as granted by the Constitution (that's government) are really no different. Granted not by God, but by a few strokes of the pen. Some of those govt.-granted rights are on a higher tier than others, but they are all govt.-granted. Otherwise, everybody around the globe would have the same rights.

Let's leave God out of this, shall we. Until he comes down to earth, and thanks us for the consideration we make to him/her/whatever.

The definition of the Rights of Mankind was a piece of work undertaken post-war by the newly forming United Nations, and under the auspices of Eleanor Roosevelt. That work, called United Nations Declaration of Human Rights was passed by the UN in 1948. It was signed by the US, among a great many other countries, some not yet founded at the time.

That document should be taught in an American high-school because it is an update of the American Constitution and puts a more modern flavor, more attuned to mankind today and not yesterday.

Give particular attention to these excerpted:
Article 22.

Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

Article 23.

(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

Article 24.

Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.

Article 25.

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

Article 26.

(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.
(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.
(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.

The great tragedy of this document is that it was signed by the American representative to the UN, then dropped in a pigeon hole and almost entirely forgot. For a piecemeal idea of its progress as ratified in the individual signatory countries, read here.

In fact, within that Ratification Site, for the US, then see the section "Employment and Forced Labor". The US has ratified only one part, that regarding the abolition of forced-labor ...
 
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Please explain how you have a 'right' to something that belongs to someone else by right. Let me answer for you to save a little time: you cant. So you can drop the crap about society moving toward greater rights while you trample the rights of those you envy.

Wow, I haven't seen such crapola in a long, long time. Just who in hell do you think you are?

You're somebody who is taking advantage of a wholly unfair tax-scheme, in a country with rampant Income Disparity - and 50 million people incarcerated below the Poverty Threshold.

That's nuthin to brag about ...
 
So, in other words if we confiscate more money from the have we will have more money to give away to the have not's. All well and good until you run out of other peoples money, then it all comes crumbling down.
 
The 1% stole your money and got richer at your expense.

Wait, the 1% was in the panama papers?

the constant attack on the 0.001%, and then claiming the 1% need to be punished, is evil, and absurd.
 
Yes, those negative, "fundamental, God-given" rights as granted by the Constitution (that's government) are really no different. Granted not by God, but by a few strokes of the pen. Some of those govt.-granted rights are on a higher tier than others, but they are all govt.-granted. Otherwise, everybody around the globe would have the same rights.

Yes, those negative, "fundamental, God-given" rights as granted by the Constitution (that's government) are really no different. Granted not by God, but by a few strokes of the pen. Some of those govt.-granted rights are on a higher tier than others, but they are all govt.-granted. Otherwise, everybody around the globe would have the same rights.

Read the 9th Amendment.. it says enumerated, not granted. Do you know the difference?

[URL="http://www.forbes.com/sites/lawrencehunter/2012/01/16/the-paradox-of-rights-granted-us-by-government/#6c724e9775a1"} why you are wrong.[/URL]

Just cause the rest of the world doesn't rise up for those rights doesn't mean they don't exist. If we followed your view of the US Constitution, it would be okay to be like Communist China.
 
Read the 9th Amendment.. it says enumerated, not granted. Do you know the difference?

[URL="http://www.forbes.com/sites/lawrencehunter/2012/01/16/the-paradox-of-rights-granted-us-by-government/#6c724e9775a1"} why you are wrong.[/URL]

Just cause the rest of the world doesn't rise up for those rights doesn't mean they don't exist. If we followed your view of the US Constitution, it would be okay to be like Communist China.

The difference is semantics. People got together and decided what rights they should grant themselves. That's government. Did those rights exist before the Constitution was written? If so, how would you know, and more importantly, how would you defend your rights without a government behind you?
 
The difference is semantics. People got together and decided what rights they should grant themselves. That's government. Did those rights exist before the Constitution was written? If so, how would you know, and more importantly, how would you defend your rights without a government behind you?


It's not semantics. If there was no Government, do you have the ability to say what you want, do what you want, fend for yourself as you want? Yes you do.
 
It's not semantics. If there was no Government, do you have the ability to say what you want, do what you want, fend for yourself as you want? Yes you do.

Well, lots o' luck exercising your rights, then. Having rights means nothing if they don't help you out somehow. You might as well grant yourself the right to fly like a bird, too.
 
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