The NRA Is Losing

[hanger4]

The public is smart enough to see that we have a problem with gun violence in the US.

And the public's also smart enough to know that it's not the inanimate object.

 

[KevinKohler]

Is that todays "talking point" from the NRA? And no the public is not wishy washy on gun safety.

But calamity isn't talking about gun safety, hes talking about gun violence. Ask him what he means.

 

[notquiteright]

The NRA may certainly lose the debate, temporarily, but in the long run, our Constitution, via SCOTUS, will be the final arbiter in what laws get handed down. The public is virtually useless except as an emotional sounding board of the current political feeling. Now, after a mass shooting, the public is tied up in knots over AR15s, but give it some time, and their fervor will die down. Then, we'll have an incident in which some innocent young thing defends herself with a gun and the emotionalism will take over again, this time supporting gun rights. Just an emotional roller coaster. But, none of that really matters, does it?

The public isn't useless, it does come in second to super PACs and lobbyists but still votes count. Sure the more radical positions will recede until the next mass shooting but there is plenty of regulatory wiggle room for firearm ownership.

The problem with your mass murder/young thing home defense argument is the Las Vegas shooting. The use of an AR in home defense is rare, far more often a wide variety of weapons are used to defend the home (and quite well niched to do that). Mass murder is greatly enhanced by the use of a high cap mag AR, and not many other weapons could have pulled the Vegas shooting off.

THAT weapon going into a school is a visceral punch for many parents. That feeling isn't going away no matter how NRA defenders deflect. The Supreme Court will never end the 2nd A, but that right isn't limitless and reasoned people agree on many restrictions. (It is with a raised eyebrow I note the rabid right holds firm on felons never getting back the 2nd A even though they thump the barrel head over- 'what part of shall not be infringed don't you understand???'

Where does the 2ndA say that felons, even after their time is served shall never get back their firearm rights (or vote for that matter)???

Time will tell but as equal rights in race, marriage and 'minor' details like equal funding in sports has shown, as public opinions shifts so does the law... eace

 

[PleasantValley]

Where does the 2ndA say that felons, even after their time is served shall never get back their firearm rights (or vote for that matter)???

Time will tell but as equal rights in race, marriage and 'minor' details like equal funding in sports has shown, as public opinions shifts so does the law... eace

I have always had an issue with how someone can not shake the stigma of a felony after they have served their time.
It is like the law forces them to go back to crime, because their options are greatly restricted.
They should have a better path to getting back on their feet.

 

[ttwtt78640]

The public isn't useless, it does come in second to super PACs and lobbyists but still votes count. Sure the more radical positions will recede until the next mass shooting but there is plenty of regulatory wiggle room for firearm ownership.

The problem with your mass murder/young thing home defense argument is the Las Vegas shooting. The use of an AR in home defense is rare, far more often a wide variety of weapons are used to defend the home (and quite well niched to do that). 1) Mass murder is greatly enhanced by the use of a high cap mag AR, and not many other weapons could have pulled the Vegas shooting off.

THAT weapon going into a school is a visceral punch for many parents. That feeling isn't going away no matter how NRA defenders deflect. The Supreme Court will never end the 2nd A, but that right isn't limitless and reasoned people agree on many restrictions. (It is with a raised eyebrow I note the rabid right holds firm on felons never getting back the 2nd A even though they thump the barrel head over- 'what part of shall not be infringed don't you understand???'

2) Where does the 2ndA say that felons, even after their time is served shall never get back their firearm rights (or vote for that matter)???

Time will tell but as equal rights in race, marriage and 'minor' details like equal funding in sports has shown, as public opinions shifts so does the law... eace

1) The Virginia Tech school mass shooter used (2?) pistols and the latest FL school mass shooter used a rifle and both used 10-round magazines. It does not take a "super gun" to execute multiple unarmed victims packed into small area.

2) So long as due process of law is used then a constitutional right can be removed. Not all states bar convicted felons from owning guns or voting for life.

 

[CLAX1911]

The NRA is losing the public debate over guns. And they’re panicking because of it. There’s no other way to interpret the frantic behavior of America’s blood-soaked gun lobby.

The more than 100-year-old organization once represented sportsmen and marksmen. But after switching sides on the individual right to bear arms in the post-Black Panthers era of the late 1970s, it now solely represents the interests of gun manufacturers...

...with gun sales declining and no black bogeyman in the White House to drive firearms hoarding in red states, the group has resorted to rank extremism to keep themselves in the conversation; churning out bizarre videos that warn of looming threats of urban collapse, hordes of brown people storming the hinterlands, and of course Antifa!

https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-nra-is-losing

OK....Is it just me or does this reek of an emotion riddled hit piece from the extreme left.
I do not see how any thinking person can see otherwise.

Oh, and to address the thread's title....NO...American gun owners are NOT loosing.
The NRA is the oldest gun owner organization, but far from being the only one.
It is the only one the gun grabbers know about. They are too focused on the cat when the lion walks up behind and eats everything in the pantry.
There are others even more effective at combating emotional gun grabs and are winning hands down.
That is why i enjoy gun grabbing shills focusing on ONLY the NRA, nothing but the NRA, and seeing no other groups.
They have tunnel vision, and that is a good thing. They only see the NRA and no others. Fantastic!

All the time the other groups are slapping down emotional gun grabbing legislation all over the country.

Its wishful thinking. The NRA has seen an increase in membership lately. Don't fall for this wishful nonsense.

 

[ttwtt78640]

The public is smart enough to see that we have a problem with gun violence in the US.

The public should be smart enough to know that a criminal willing to commit murder is not apt to obey gun laws.

 

[PleasantValley]

Its wishful thinking. The NRA has seen an increase in membership lately. Don't fall for this wishful nonsense.

Yeah, I figured as much.
To me, though, the NRA is a non-issue.
If they dissolved tomorrow, gun owners would still win and keep winning.
It is the state and local groups that squash the gun grabbing politicians and laws before they get anywhere.
However, usually a portion of the fees collected go to the NRA too. I am good with that.
That is...in those states that support gun rights.

 

[calamity]

The public should be smart enough to know that a criminal willing to commit murder is not apt to obey gun laws.

Strawman argument. Fact is most of these shootings are committed by legal gun owners or using guns which were legally purchased.

 

[KevinKohler]

Strawman argument. Fact is most of these shootings are committed by legal gun owners or using guns which were legally purchased.

Which shootings?

Citation?

 

[ttwtt78640]

Strawman argument. Fact is most of these shootings are committed by legal gun owners.

It is not a "strawman argument" to point out that criminals willingly break the law. The fact is that most traffic law violations are committed by legal car owners/drivers and convictions for those offenses most often do not result in the loss of driving privileges.

Pointing out that a (felony?) first offense was committed by someone without a prior (felony?) criminal record is no reason to treat all folks as if they would become (felony?) criminals unless gun possession is denied or made (much?) more difficult and expensive for them.

 

[calamity]

It is not a "strawman argument" to point out that criminals willingly break the law. The fact is that most traffic law violations are committed by legal car owners/drivers and convictions for those offenses most often do not result in the loss of driving privileges.

Pointing out that a (felony?) first offense was committed by someone without a prior (felony?) criminal record is no reason to treat all folks as if they would become (felony?) criminals unless gun possession is denied or made (much?) more difficult and expensive for them.

It's a strawman argument because most of these shooters did use legally purchased guns to commit their killings.

 

[Perotista]

...and to your point exactly, if that homicidal maniac comes to a school but all entrances are secure and the only access point is through metal detectors, and armed and trained security personnel, he will not be nearly as successful. HOPING he will change his mind because it is a GUN FREE ZONE is shear insanity and goes against plain "common sense". That same buzz word the gun grabbers like to use. Unless murderers are physically stopped, they will continue killing. Laws and signs do not physically stop anyone.

One day this truth might sink into their heads, but it will not be today, for sure.

The thing I want to know is why has it come to this? Metal detectors, security guards, whatever. What's changed since I was in school, since my kids were in school? Posting a sign that reads, gun free zone isn't what has caused this. Something within our society or perhaps the world as a whole has changed. School shootings in the past has happened. The first was in 1764, here is the list:

2018, 14 February - Marjory Stoneman Douglas High school shootings - (17 dead)
2017, November 14 - Rancho Tehama Reserve shootings - (6 dead)
2015, 1 October - Umpqua Community College shooting - (10 dead)
2014, October 24- Marysville Pilchuck High School shooting - (5 dead)
2013, June 7 - 2013 Santa Monica shooting - (6 dead)
2012, December 14- Sandy Hook Elementary School shootings - (28 deaths)
2012, 2 April - Oikos University shooting - (7 deaths)
2008, February 14 - Northern Illinois University shooting - (6 deaths)
2007, 6 April - Virginia Tech massacre - (33 deaths)
2006, October 2 - West Nickel Mines School shooting - (6 deaths)
2005, 21 March - Red Lake shootings - (10 deaths)
1999, 20 April - Columbine High School massacre - (15 deaths)
1998, May 21 - Thurston High School shooting - (4 deaths)
1998, March 24 - Mitchell Johnson and Andrew Golden - (5 deaths)
1991, 1 November - University of Iowa shooting - (6 deaths)
1976, 12 July - Fulerton, California - (7 deaths)
1970, 4 May - Kent State shootings (4 deaths)
1966, 12 November - Mesa, Arizona - (5 deaths)
1966, 1 August - University of Texas tower shooting - (17 deaths)
1940, May 6 - Pasadena - (5 deaths)
1893, December 13 - Charleston - (6 deaths)
1893, March 26 - Plain Dealing high school - (4 deaths)
1764, July 26 - Enoch Brown (10 deaths)

Notice, one in the 1700's, two in the 1800's, one in 1940 when there were no gun control laws at all. Okay, in the 1930's there was one that was passed, one had to have a federal permit to own a machine gun. Seems beginning in 1966 and especially since 1990 we have gone hog wild with school shootings. The more gun control laws, the more school shootings. That isn't a cause and effect, just something that needs pointing out. I think gun control, metal detectors, security guards are just treating the outside symptoms and not the cause. No one wants to hear that.

With every new school shooting, with the return of the fever my brain tumor patient had, we just shove more aspirin into the patient and talk more gun control while leaving the the causes, the brain tumor in place and whatever is the root cause, the motivation for these shooting in place to grow and grow. How long before these shoot graduate to something bigger and better than a gun?

 

[notquiteright]

1) The Virginia Tech school mass shooter used (2?) pistols and the latest FL school mass shooter used a rifle and both used 10-round magazines. It does not take a "super gun" to execute multiple unarmed victims packed into small area. 2) So long as due process of law is used then a constitutional right can be removed. Not all states bar convicted felons from owning guns or voting for life.

Reading comprehension an issue with you???

Where did I say ONLY high cap mag ARs are capable of high body count shootings???

What I said was the Vegas shooting benefited greatly from being first an AR, not a pistol, and second high cap mags (also from a bump stock).

I said many parents have serious issues with the idea of an AR armed person (who shouldn't have had access to a firearm much less purchase an AR) entering their school.

A terrorist doesn't need a jet plane loaded with jet fuel to commit mass murder but that doesn't mean we shouldn't take steps to thwart more attempts.

Now to clear up you mis-statements, Cho used both 10 and 15 round mags. His mental health history should have blocked his purchase of firearms.

Now, again where did I say ALL states anything??? Please try and be as precise at this as I'm sure you are a shot with your firearm of choice-

Let's play- many states restore voting rights without much fuss (and when discussing voter laws and ID requirements the righties points out voting isn't in the Constitution like the 2nd A is) Soooo when a felon completes their debt and can vote again no state I can find automatically restores the CONSTITUTIONAL right to bear arms. Some states allow petition to restore, but please tell me the states that restore the RIGHT to firearms as easily as the 'right' to vote??? eace

 

[ttwtt78640]

It's a strawman argument because most of these shooters did use legally purchased guns to commit their killings.

The 2A, or legal gun purchase/ownership, does not excuse murder or any other crime committed with a gun. What is your point here?

As I pointed out before, most traffic law violations are committed by legal car owners/drivers. Having cars registered and drivers licensed in no way prevents traffic law violations.

 

[calamity]

The 2A, or legal gun purchase/ownership, does not excuse murder or any other crime committed with a gun. What is your point here?

As I pointed out before, most traffic law violations are committed by legal car owners/drivers. Having cars registered and drivers licensed in no way prevents traffic law violations.

Ah, cars, another favorite strawman---"Karz kill too!"

 

[ttwtt78640]

Ah, cars, another favorite strawman---"Karz kill too!"

Still no point? What difference does it make if a gun used in a crime was legally purchased?

 

[ttwtt78640]

Reading comprehension an issue with you???

Let's play- many states restore voting rights without much fuss (and when discussing voter laws and ID requirements the righties points out voting isn't in the Constitution like the 2nd A is) Soooo when a felon completes their debt and can vote again no state I can find automatically restores the CONSTITUTIONAL right to bear arms. Some states allow petition to restore, but please tell me the states that restore the RIGHT to firearms as easily as the 'right' to vote??? eace

OK, I'll play, and yes Cho used (high capacity?) 15-round magazines in one of his pistols.

States that prohibit/allow convicted felons to have guns:

https://people.howstuffworks.com/can-felon-own-gun-in-united-states3.htm

khou.com | VERIFY: Can a felon legally have a gun in Texas?

Voting rights and the constitution:

https://felonvoting.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=000649

 

[Vox]

Yes, the certainly are.

Shouldn't this be in the "Wishful Thinking" forum?

Or maybe "Hallucinations" forum?

:mrgreen:

 

[notquiteright]

OK, I'll play, and yes Cho used (high capacity?) 15-round magazines in one of his pistols. States that prohibit/allow convicted felons to have guns: Voting rights and the constitution:

You call that playing??? You must be good at dodge ball... :roll:

Again it's simple- the righties keep claiming the 'right' to vote isn't in the Constitution like the right to keep and bear arms. (some claim only over reaching unelected lawyers in robes have declared voting a right)

Yet restoration of the right to vote is almost automatic across the Republic while the vast majority of states (to include red states) have several discretional hoops for a felon to jump through (none guaranteed and what are the restoration rates in these states???) to restore a right enumerated in the Constitution... :doh

It just seems odd to me given the rhetoric from the NRA and rabid right... eace

 

[jet57]

Yeah, because Alex Jones soooo represents the average NRA gun owner....:roll:

You could set the example and get rid of your weapons of war, maybe take a grinder to the actions or give them to the police for "disposal" ....in their gun safe!

He sounds just like you guys here.

 

[jet57]

Jones is a loon that the left wing media use to make right wingers look stupid. The right wing media does the same thing too.They interview some liberal nutjob to make left wingers look stupid.

Jones sound just like the radical gun gun owners. His debate style, his diversions, his excuses, all of it. I posted it as an example. You should pay attention to.

 

[B'smith]

Yes, the certainly are.

Meanwhile:


"The NRA Has Gained 500,000 New Members Since The Parkland Shooting"
The NRA Has Gained 500,000 New Members Since The Parkland Shooting - The Red Elephants
EXCERPT "*Not only did gun sales increase again, but NRA memberships skyrocketed. *According to sources, the NRA has gained approximately 500,000 new members since the Parkland shooting."CONTINUED


Those troublesome facts just keep getting in the way of the gun ban crowd.

 

[calamity]

Meanwhile:


"The NRA Has Gained 500,000 New Members Since The Parkland Shooting"
The NRA Has Gained 500,000 New Members Since The Parkland Shooting - The Red Elephants
EXCERPT "*Not only did gun sales increase again, but NRA memberships skyrocketed. *According to sources, the NRA has gained approximately 500,000 new members since the Parkland shooting."CONTINUED


Those troublesome facts just keep getting in the way of the gun ban crowd.

Dubious source above, at best.

 

[B'smith]

Dubious source above, at best.

Do you like this one any better:


"NRA sees a huge surge in membership interest after drawing noisy backlash over Parkland massacre"
NRA sees a huge surge in membership interest after Parkland | Daily Mail Online
EXCERPT "Some otherwise casual gun rights supporters said that the loud attacks on the NRA in the media by young Parkland survivors such as David Hogg drove them to sign up.
'Thank you David Hogg for inspiring me,' one Twitter user wrote. 'I gifted my husband with an NRA membership. I felt now was an important time to support them,' she continued, adding a screenshot of the membership confirmation email."CONTINUED

Maybe you're just wrong in your desperate hope that the NRA is "losing" & the gun bans you support are just around the corner.