• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

The Men America Left Behind

calamity

Privileged
Supporting Member
Monthly Subscriber
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 12, 2013
Messages
152,364
Reaction score
52,257
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist
For those still looking for the why behind all the Trump support...here ya go.

The men America has left behind - May. 4, 2016

Nearly one-quarter of white men with only a high school diploma aren't working. Many of these men, age 25 to 64, aren't just unemployed ... they aren't even looking for a job, according to federal data.

...Four years ago, the GOP nominee Mitt Romney dismissed the 47% of Americans who don't pay taxes. Now, frontrunner Donald Trump proclaims that he loves "the poorly educated."
 

calamity

Privileged
Supporting Member
Monthly Subscriber
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 12, 2013
Messages
152,364
Reaction score
52,257
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist

Henrin

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 3, 2010
Messages
60,458
Reaction score
12,357
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
Any problems facing men society doesn't consider worthy enough to consider. Hell, I bet most people aren't even aware that more and more men are dropping out of society.

On other hand, how many people do you think are aware that women want free birth control? How many people do think are aware of the injustice of taxes on tampons? Oh, I don't know, everyone.
 

Glen Contrarian

DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 21, 2013
Messages
17,688
Reaction score
8,046
Location
Bernie to the left of me, Hillary to the right, he
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
Whites are not going to be happy when 25% of them are unemployed, especially when they used to believe that a $25 an hour full time job, with benefits, was a birthright.

And then the blacks and hispanics look at them and say, "Oh, now you're in the same boat as us, huh?"
 

ocean515

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 26, 2013
Messages
36,760
Reaction score
15,464
Location
Southern California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
For those still looking for the why behind all the Trump support...here ya go.

The men America has left behind - May. 4, 2016

There are no doubt many reasons for the support of Trump. One doesn't have to be white to be part of the club.

The loss of jobs like those featured, and the idea someone might do something about it, is an attractive proposition.

It certainly holds a better promise than the hollow ring of someone apologizing for supporting the destruction of a families economic future.
 

calamity

Privileged
Supporting Member
Monthly Subscriber
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 12, 2013
Messages
152,364
Reaction score
52,257
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist
Any problems facing men society doesn't consider worthy enough to consider. Hell, I bet most people aren't even aware that more and more men are dropping out of society.

On other hand, how many people do you think are aware that women want free birth control? How many people do think are aware of the injustice of taxes on tampons? Oh, I don't know, everyone.

It gets worse. As Sullivan pointed out in the article I posted yesterday, society has for years been blaming these white men and what they hold dear: guns, religion, fee speech, etc.; for everything that is wrong with it.
 

TheGoverness

Little Miss Sunshine
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 29, 2016
Messages
35,043
Reaction score
37,631
Location
Houston Area, TX
Gender
Female
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
Any problems facing men society doesn't consider worthy enough to consider. Hell, I bet most people aren't even aware that more and more men are dropping out of society.

I will agree that people tend to not address the problems that men face in society.

But we should be addressing everyone's problems in society, not just women's or men's, as we both face problems.
 

calamity

Privileged
Supporting Member
Monthly Subscriber
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 12, 2013
Messages
152,364
Reaction score
52,257
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist
There are no doubt many reasons for the support of Trump. One doesn't have to be white to be part of the club.

The loss of jobs like those featured, and the idea someone might do something about it, is an attractive proposition.

It certainly holds a better promise than the hollow ring of someone apologizing for supporting the destruction of a families economic future.

I love the idea of Trump bringing manufacturing jobs back to the US. It's the one promise of his I hope he can actually deliver.
 

calamity

Privileged
Supporting Member
Monthly Subscriber
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 12, 2013
Messages
152,364
Reaction score
52,257
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist
I will agree that people tend to not address the problems that men face in society.

But we should be addressing everyone's problems in society, not just women's or men's, as we both face problems.

Rural, straight white men, with no college or special skills, have probably been the least represented interest group in the US for several decades. They know it , and they are mad as hell. Trump managed to tap into that anger.

I just suspect that he played them for fools. That's all.
 

Henrin

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 3, 2010
Messages
60,458
Reaction score
12,357
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
I will agree that people tend to not address the problems that men face in society.

But we should be addressing everyone's problems in society, not just women's or men's, as we both face problems.

To be fair men are pretty much ignoring their own problems and only paying any mind to the problems of women. It's kind of a bull**** thing when you think about it. Women focus on themselves, while men ignore themselves.
 

Henrin

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 3, 2010
Messages
60,458
Reaction score
12,357
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
It gets worse. As Sullivan pointed out in the article I posted yesterday, society has for years been blaming these white men and what they hold dear: guns, religion, fee speech, etc.; for everything that is wrong with it.

Which is one of the reasons no one is paying it any mind. When you're the enemy of all of society what is the chances society will look your way when things aren't so great for you? There is a price to pay for making an entire group of people the enemy.
 

calamity

Privileged
Supporting Member
Monthly Subscriber
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 12, 2013
Messages
152,364
Reaction score
52,257
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist
Which is one of the reasons no one is paying it any mind. When you're the enemy of all of society what is the chances society will look your way when things aren't so great for you? There is a price to pay for making an entire group of people the enemy.

I definitely see that.
 

Chomsky

Social Democrat
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 28, 2015
Messages
55,782
Reaction score
42,993
Location
Third Coast
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
For those still looking for the why behind all the Trump support...here ya go.

The men America has left behind - May. 4, 2016
Yes, that's it exactly!

And living in a major northern Rustbelt city (that also luckily has a diverse economy), I know men exactly like this - guys I grew-up with!

And I'm torn on them, because they never saw past their factory floor or union loading docks. They never saw the need for an education or skilled trade where they could open-up their own shop. As long as the union controlled the docks, they were happy and had a decent thing going.

But now those union jobs are gone.

I feel for them, but their injury if not self-inflicted, was at the least contributed by their not looking at or planning for the future. While others amongst our peers were working long hours becoming accountants, lawyers, learning skilled trades, or starting businesses - they were happy working a no hassle 40 hour week on the docks, paying their union dues, and cashing their weekly checks after work on Fridays at the corner bar.

I hate to call them lazy, 'cuz that's not fully true; but the guys I knew did have a type of laziness in not making an effort to plan for the future besides that week's immediate paycheck. Perhaps 'simple in spirit' might be the best way to describe some of them. But in others, there was a laziness in jumping to the fast money of unskilled union jobs gotten through connections right out of highschool, rather than putting in the long hours and hard work it takes to get an education, skilled trade, or start a business.

But they're decent guys for the most part who prefer to work, rather than collect a government check, but of course that's predicated upon the paycheck being reasonably better than an SSI or Disability check. It's amazing how many displaced workers end-up on Disability because it pays better than Welfare, and they get to keep their assets. Too many greedy docs are writing up claims like they're giving out candy!
 

calamity

Privileged
Supporting Member
Monthly Subscriber
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 12, 2013
Messages
152,364
Reaction score
52,257
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist
Yes, that's it exactly!

And living in a major northern Rustbelt city (that also luckily has a diverse economy), I know men exactly like this - guys I grew-up with!

And I'm torn on them, because they never saw past their factory floor or union loading docks. They never saw the need for an education or skilled trade where they could open-up their own shop. As long as the union controlled the docks, they were happy and had a decent thing going.

But now those union jobs are gone.

I feel for them, but their injury if not self-inflicted, was at the least contributed by their not looking at or planning for the future. While others amongst our peers were working long hours becoming accountants, lawyers, learning skilled trades, or starting businesses - they were happy working a no hassle 40 hour week on the docks, paying their union dues, and cashing their weekly checks after work on Fridays at the corner bar.

I hate to call them lazy, 'cuz that's not fully true; but the guys I knew did have a type of laziness in not making an effort to plan for the future besides that week's immediate paycheck. Perhaps 'simple in spirit' might be the best way to describe some of them. But in others, there was a laziness in jumping to the fast money of unskilled union jobs gotten through connections right out of highschool, rather than putting in the long hours and hard work it takes to get an education, skilled trade, or start a business.

But they're decent guys for the most part who prefer to work, rather than collect a government check, but of course that's predicated upon the paycheck being reasonably better than an SSI or Disability check. It's amazing how many displaced workers end-up on Disability because it pays better than Welfare, and they get to keep their assets. Too many greedy docs are writing up claims like they're giving out candy!
At one time American steel workers were the highest paid Laborers in the world. In the end, that's exactly what cost millions their jobs.

Good post.
 

Riveroaks

Banned
Joined
Jul 14, 2015
Messages
10,230
Reaction score
2,081
Location
Peoples' Republic Of CALIF
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
For those still looking for the why behind all the Trump support...here ya go.

The men America has left behind - May. 4, 2016

As long as you graduate high school and are physically fit you can join the Army, Navy, Marines, Coast Guard, and/or Air Force.

If you are not physically fit then you have some kind of disability and therefore you are in the class of the disabled.

In that case you will need to get a job at a grocery probably. Probably can't do construction or drive a truck either.

Supporting Trump isn't going to do any good. He won't be able to kick out the Mexicans. I don't know why he ever said that either. It is probably going to cost him the swing states and therefore the election. He wasted all that money all due to his own mouth.
 

Chomsky

Social Democrat
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 28, 2015
Messages
55,782
Reaction score
42,993
Location
Third Coast
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
At one time American steel workers were the highest paid Laborers in the world. In the end, that's exactly what cost millions their jobs.

Good post.
Thank you.

And to add: During the 60's Detroit had the highest per capita wages of any city in the country! It's true! How about that?
 

Connery

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 11, 2012
Messages
5,134
Reaction score
6,122
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Yes, that's it exactly!

And living in a major northern Rustbelt city (that also luckily has a diverse economy), I know men exactly like this - guys I grew-up with!

And I'm torn on them, because they never saw past their factory floor or union loading docks. They never saw the need for an education or skilled trade where they could open-up their own shop. As long as the union controlled the docks, they were happy and had a decent thing going.

But now those union jobs are gone.

I feel for them, but their injury if not self-inflicted, was at the least contributed by their not looking at or planning for the future. While others amongst our peers were working long hours becoming accountants, lawyers, learning skilled trades, or starting businesses - they were happy working a no hassle 40 hour week on the docks, paying their union dues, and cashing their weekly checks after work on Fridays at the corner bar.

I hate to call them lazy, 'cuz that's not fully true; but the guys I knew did have a type of laziness in not making an effort to plan for the future besides that week's immediate paycheck. Perhaps 'simple in spirit' might be the best way to describe some of them. But in others, there was a laziness in jumping to the fast money of unskilled union jobs gotten through connections right out of highschool, rather than putting in the long hours and hard work it takes to get an education, skilled trade, or start a business.

But they're decent guys for the most part who prefer to work, rather than collect a government check, but of course that's predicated upon the paycheck being reasonably better than an SSI or Disability check. It's amazing how many displaced workers end-up on Disability because it pays better than Welfare, and they get to keep their assets. Too many greedy docs are writing up claims like they're giving out candy!

I grew up with these type of people as well. Interesting how things turned out for us all. Then, I was resentful because I was not included in the group for a various reasons. That was the best thing that happened to me. I wanted much better than was available in the neighborhood and worked for it. Many of these guys did what their fathers did and missed out of a life of true personal achievement and that type of success. I became a lawyer and was able to retire in my early 40's.
 

calamity

Privileged
Supporting Member
Monthly Subscriber
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 12, 2013
Messages
152,364
Reaction score
52,257
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist
Thank you.

And to add: During the 60's Detroit had the highest per capita wages of any city in the country! It's true! How about that?

There are some things that do not add up in the USA. Disability pay is what? $17,000 to maybe $20K. But, the doctors treating these people earn $250K. CEO's earn $25M annually while his average worker in Mexico or China earns $25 per day, tops.

This will not end well.
 

calamity

Privileged
Supporting Member
Monthly Subscriber
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 12, 2013
Messages
152,364
Reaction score
52,257
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Centrist
I grew up with these type of people as well. Interesting how things turned out for us all. Then, I was resentful because I was not included in the group for a various reasons. That was the best thing that happened to me. I wanted much better than was available in the neighborhood and worked for it. Many of these guys did what their fathers did and missed out of a life of true personal achievement and that type of success. I became a lawyer and was able to retire in my early 40's.

My saving grace was that I looked at work as a career. I always approached it more like I would a hobby than a job. After all, work would be something I was going to be doing most of my waking hours. I certainly did not want to hate it.

Growing up in Detroit area during the 70's, we all knew we could get a mindless spot on the line paying $20 an hour, to start. But, I did not want a mindless job. Even back then, I had enough sense to know that working 8 hours a day in a mindless job would not be for me. Lucky was seeing it soon enough to still have a chance to earn an education and learn a few valuable skills to do something interesting.
 

VanceMack

MSG Benavides TAB
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Messages
75,487
Reaction score
31,882
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
There are some things that do not add up in the USA. Disability pay is what? $17,000 to maybe $20K. But, the doctors treating these people earn $250K. CEO's earn $25M annually while his average worker in Mexico or China earns $25 per day, tops.

This will not end well.
None of this makes a ton of sense.

America did not leave anyone behind. The jobs market has changed. People have not adapted to the jobs market. Many of those that have stopped looking for jobs had one resume. They kept looking for one job. With a certain pay expectation. In a certain area. I have an employment readiness specialist that works with people to tailor resumes to jobs and has been consistently successfully in helping people find work. Sometimes you have to shift careers or even relocate. Sometimes you have to work one primary job and several minimum wage jobs. But the fact is...that has been the way it has always been.

I like Trumps rhetoric regarding bringing back manufacturing jobs. I have said that for 8 years now...we MUST rebuild our industrial base. It will require cooperation by industry, labor, and government officials but foreign auto manufacturers have proven it is still viable in the states. We must enforce immigration laws...not because we are evil or because we hate immigrants but because the countries immigration laws are designed to support a balanced economy which provides for our nations citizens and the legal immigrants that come here very year...at least a million of them. Every year. We must curb spending. We must tie unemployment payments with workfare...theres lots of old neighborhoods that need to be either demolished or renovated. We must change our foreign aid contributions to support that is mutually beneficial. We must tighten our belt at the federal government level. We must be smarter about debt. We must get the federal government out of the guaranteed student loan business. We must continue economically and environmentally sound production of fossil fuels. Every dollar spent by the federal government should be spent with an aim to improving the future, not just to digging the grave another foot deeper.
 

Ntharotep

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 18, 2015
Messages
1,503
Reaction score
663
Location
Florida
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
There are no doubt many reasons for the support of Trump. One doesn't have to be white to be part of the club.
The loss of jobs like those featured, and the idea someone might do something about it, is an attractive proposition.
It certainly holds a better promise than the hollow ring of someone apologizing for supporting the destruction of a families economic future.
Didn't you get the memo? You can only vote for Trump if you are racist and you are racist if you vote for Trump.
And white people only care about their overpaid jobs and all of us...err I mean them...get paid at least $20 an hour.
Insert other shame tactics to keep you from voting for who you want here.

I will agree that people tend to not address the problems that men face in society.
But we should be addressing everyone's problems in society, not just women's or men's, as we both face problems.
That would require acting like Americans instead of football fans. That mentality shows no sign of changing unfortunately.
"MY team must win."
Though I have to say the one things that seems to be happening in this horrid election time is that the team lines seem a little blurred and less stable.
 

ocean515

DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 26, 2013
Messages
36,760
Reaction score
15,464
Location
Southern California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Didn't you get the memo? You can only vote for Trump if you are racist and you are racist if you vote for Trump.
And white people only care about their overpaid jobs and all of us...err I mean them...get paid at least $20 an hour.
Insert other shame tactics to keep you from voting for who you want here.


That would require acting like Americans instead of football fans. That mentality shows no sign of changing unfortunately.
"MY team must win."
Though I have to say the one things that seems to be happening in this horrid election time is that the team lines seem a little blurred and less stable.

No, I didn't get the memo. It seems it only circulated among those who yap at the dog whistles they have been trained to respond to.
 
Top Bottom