• Please keep all posts on the Rittenhouse verdict here: Rittenhouse Verdict. Note the moderator warnings in the thread. The thread will be heavily moderated with a zero tolerance policy for any baiting, flaming, trolling or other rule breaks. Stick to the topic and not the other posters. Thank you.
  • This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

The mechanics of gun control preventing the Orlando massacre

cabse5

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 29, 2013
Messages
22,624
Reaction score
2,293
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
To the proponents of gun control: I am ignorant of the methods (notice I didn't say machinations) using gun control that would've successfully prevented the massacre at the Pulse nightclub in Orlando. Educate me.
 

ttwtt78640

Sometimes wrong
DP Veteran
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
73,194
Reaction score
41,728
Location
Uhland, Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
To the proponents of gun control: I am ignorant of the methods (notice I didn't say machinations) using gun control that would've successfully prevented the massacre at the Pulse nightclub in Orlando. Educate me.

Laws preventing the sale of guns to anyone that might be a friend, relative or crime victim of a possible bad guy could work. ;)

Who, exactly, watches those placed on the terror watch llist?
 

MickeyW

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 10, 2015
Messages
14,012
Reaction score
3,439
Location
Southern Oregon
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
One in ten people in Florida, are concealed carry permit holders. However, Florida Law prevents the carrying of a concealed weapon in this club.

Doing the math, conceivably 30 people could have been carrying here, out of 300 or so present. But they couldn't carry.

This perp scouted out the club on numerous occasions and knew what type of security they had.....which was rather weak.

Gun Free Zones need to be abolished!
 

coyotedelmar

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
Messages
822
Reaction score
183
Location
Arizona
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
To the proponents of gun control: I am ignorant of the methods (notice I didn't say machinations) using gun control that would've successfully prevented the massacre at the Pulse nightclub in Orlando. Educate me.


None of the methods would have stopped the shooting bar a complete ban (and that is iffy even).
 

Mr Person

A Little Bitter
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Monthly Donator
Joined
Oct 14, 2015
Messages
50,479
Reaction score
34,817
Location
Massachusetts
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
I've had a few ideas that might help, but certainly not stop, the flow of guns to criminals; but those involve things like gun registries, ammo registries, improving serial numbers (so they can't be obliterated), and complete bans on resale of guns other than back to a licensed firearm dealer. But I've pretty much never heard a gun enthusiast agree (some gun _owners_ have agreed, but mere owners aren't the ones that need convincing about reasonable gun control).

None of that would stop mass shootings.

In fact, I don't think we can pass *anything* consistent with the 2nd Amd. that will stop or even reasonably cut down on mass shootings. Ditto for the rest of gun violence in this country. There are just so many guns out there.

We'd need to repeal the 2nd, confiscate the myriad guns out there, pass a new much more limited 2nd, and start all over. Not happening. That's less likely than building a wall, forcing Mexico to pay for it, deporting all the illegals, and actually keeping them all out. HAH!

Basically, either Americans are extremely violent evil people as compared to the rest of the world, or having the most guns per capita means you have the most gun violence per capita (not including broken states like El Salvador).

The guns aren't going anywhere. So, as tragic and frustrating as it is, we're going to have to get used to the idea that if you live in America, you're far more likely to be gunned down than in any other "civilized" nation.
 

Mr Person

A Little Bitter
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Monthly Donator
Joined
Oct 14, 2015
Messages
50,479
Reaction score
34,817
Location
Massachusetts
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Other solutions?

"We should fix the health care system"

Well, here's what I say in response to anyone about to say something that limited and simple:



That's the kind of massive oversimplification of things that typically makes the people who need convincing roll their eyes and stop listening to you.

You also haven't articulated in what ways the "mental health system" could be "fixed" so as to stop those specific mass shooters from getting guns.

You haven't suggested any specific mental illnesses that should rule someone out from gun ownership and which should not. Depression? Major depression? Bipolar? Schizophrenia? ADHD?

None of these are linked to propensities for violence, let alone gun violence or mass shootings specifically; in fact, the mentally ill are far more likely to be victims of violence than its perpetrators, despite what one's mental illness of a schizophrenic person is.

Finally, you haven't bothered with privacy concerns. Exactly what is supposed to happen? College student A thinks student B is a "nut", so he tells an official about it.

Then what? B gets forcibly hauled off to a psychiatrist, forced through a mental exam, etc etc etc? All so you can determine whether to prospectively make it illegal to stop them from owning a gun and then...

..and then, hay wait a minute, there's the problem I raised: There are SO MANY GUNS out there that if a mentally ill person wants one to commit a murder, he will certainly commit the lesser crime of illegally purchasing a firearm.

"Fixing our mental health system" might be a good idea, but its nonsense to throw it out there as some kind of obvious fix for gun violence. Keep doing it, and the people you need to convince won't listen to a thing you say.



(Ok, this second post is something I said to someone else in another site, but I figured I'd come over here because here is better for actual debate than that other place...)
 

Citizen.Seven

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 27, 2014
Messages
1,967
Reaction score
718
Political Leaning
Libertarian
One in ten people in Florida, are concealed carry permit holders. However, Florida Law prevents the carrying of a concealed weapon in this club.

Doing the math, conceivably 30 people could have been carrying here, out of 300 or so present. But they couldn't carry.

This perp scouted out the club on numerous occasions and knew what type of security they had.....which was rather weak.

Gun Free Zones need to be abolished!

Absolutely right. The only "gun control" should be by gun owners.
 

QuadpolarNutjob

DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 31, 2015
Messages
1,522
Reaction score
582
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
gun control laws target the wrong people, white christian republicans are not committing these murders. yet these are the majority of legal gun owners. keep your pets on a leash, liberals, if you really want to prevent this madness. but...you don't really want to prevent killings, do you? you want control. a monolithic government. that's your endgame, that's your passion. disgusting as you are dishonest.
 

cabse5

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 29, 2013
Messages
22,624
Reaction score
2,293
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
gun control laws target the wrong people, white christian republicans are not committing these murders. yet these are the majority of legal gun owners. keep your pets on a leash, liberals, if you really want to prevent this madness. but...you don't really want to prevent killings, do you? you want control. a monolithic government. that's your endgame, that's your passion. disgusting as you are dishonest.
You have to admit (I suppose you'd admit) even though there are a large majority of gun owners who are responsible with their guns, the problem is the number of gun owners who aren't responsible with their guns. You're saying there is no way to prevent gun violence in America, then? Just prosecution? And everyone who uses a gun is going to have the best of judgement?

How about when someone uses their gun against another person regardless of circumstances, that gun user is 'put on administrative leave' like the police do with a shooting involving the police?
 
Last edited:

TurtleDude

warrior of the wetlands
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 12, 2005
Messages
268,278
Reaction score
84,900
Location
Ohio
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
One in ten people in Florida, are concealed carry permit holders. However, Florida Law prevents the carrying of a concealed weapon in this club.

Doing the math, conceivably 30 people could have been carrying here, out of 300 or so present. But they couldn't carry.

This perp scouted out the club on numerous occasions and knew what type of security they had.....which was rather weak.

Gun Free Zones need to be abolished!

I don't disagree with a law that says those drinking alcohol cannot carry firearms. I think that is a sensible state law. I doubt the establishment that was victimized had many, if any patrons who were non-drinkers. SO maybe the only solution is more armed security. Not telling those drinking alcohol they ought to carry while drinking
 

TurtleDude

warrior of the wetlands
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 12, 2005
Messages
268,278
Reaction score
84,900
Location
Ohio
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
I've had a few ideas that might help, but certainly not stop, the flow of guns to criminals; but those involve things like gun registries, ammo registries, improving serial numbers (so they can't be obliterated), and complete bans on resale of guns other than back to a licensed firearm dealer. But I've pretty much never heard a gun enthusiast agree (some gun _owners_ have agreed, but mere owners aren't the ones that need convincing about reasonable gun control).

None of that would stop mass shootings.

In fact, I don't think we can pass *anything* consistent with the 2nd Amd. that will stop or even reasonably cut down on mass shootings. Ditto for the rest of gun violence in this country. There are just so many guns out there.

We'd need to repeal the 2nd, confiscate the myriad guns out there, pass a new much more limited 2nd, and start all over. Not happening. That's less likely than building a wall, forcing Mexico to pay for it, deporting all the illegals, and actually keeping them all out. HAH!

Basically, either Americans are extremely violent evil people as compared to the rest of the world, or having the most guns per capita means you have the most gun violence per capita (not including broken states like El Salvador).

The guns aren't going anywhere. So, as tragic and frustrating as it is, we're going to have to get used to the idea that if you live in America, you're far more likely to be gunned down than in any other "civilized" nation.

how many people do you think would die if the government went around ignoring the bill of rights and confiscating firearms?
 

EMNofSeattle

No Shame!
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 20, 2014
Messages
29,201
Reaction score
8,871
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
I don't disagree with a law that says those drinking alcohol cannot carry firearms. I think that is a sensible state law. I doubt the establishment that was victimized had many, if any patrons who were non-drinkers. SO maybe the only solution is more armed security. Not telling those drinking alcohol they ought to carry while drinking

I do have a problem with that law though, It is silly to insist everyone who attends bars is drinking. I frequent many bars and I'm a teetotaler, I like social interaction, meeting people my age, and the occassional dancing. also where I live the bars are only places to sit down to a meal after 10pm and I'm a night shift guy.

also sober designate drivers often go to bars with their friends.
 

TurtleDude

warrior of the wetlands
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 12, 2005
Messages
268,278
Reaction score
84,900
Location
Ohio
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
I do have a problem with that law though, It is silly to insist everyone who attends bars is drinking. I frequent many bars and I'm a teetotaler, I like social interaction, meeting people my age, and the occassional dancing. also where I live the bars are only places to sit down to a meal after 10pm and I'm a night shift guy.

also sober designate drivers often go to bars with their friends.

true, its why I support the Ohio law that allows me to sit at a bar and eat while packing as long as I don't drink
 

Socrates1

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 16, 2016
Messages
2,782
Reaction score
469
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
One in ten people in Florida, are concealed carry permit holders. However, Florida Law prevents the carrying of a concealed weapon in this club.

Doing the math, conceivably 30 people could have been carrying here, out of 300 or so present. But they couldn't carry.

This perp scouted out the club on numerous occasions and knew what type of security they had.....which was rather weak.

Gun Free Zones need to be abolished!

100% correct ! liberals need to find safe zones if they oppose guns and the 2nd Amendment .
 

EMNofSeattle

No Shame!
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 20, 2014
Messages
29,201
Reaction score
8,871
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
I've had a few ideas that might help, but certainly not stop, the flow of guns to criminals; but those involve things like gun registries, ammo registries, improving serial numbers (so they can't be obliterated), and complete bans on resale of guns other than back to a licensed firearm dealer. But I've pretty much never heard a gun enthusiast agree (some gun _owners_ have agreed, but mere owners aren't the ones that need convincing about reasonable gun control).

and almost no one in this society would agree to any of the laws you suggested once the actual legislation is shown.

None of that would stop mass shootings.

In fact, I don't think we can pass *anything* consistent with the 2nd Amd. that will stop or even reasonably cut down on mass shootings. Ditto for the rest of gun violence in this country. There are just so many guns out there.

Not true at all.

We'd need to repeal the 2nd, confiscate the myriad guns out there, pass a new much more limited 2nd, and start all over. Not happening. That's less likely than building a wall, forcing Mexico to pay for it, deporting all the illegals, and actually keeping them all out. HAH!

good thing you'll never get the public support nessecary.

Basically, either Americans are extremely violent evil people as compared to the rest of the world, or having the most guns per capita means you have the most gun violence per capita (not including broken states like El Salvador).

if you focus only on "gun violence" (an invented political term that includes suicides and accidents) then that is true. it is universally accepted that many objects open you up to additional risks. you probably will never get a speeding ticket if you don't drive. you will be statistically unlikely to fall down stairs if your home and work are single story buildings. If you look at violence as a whole, in America you are very unlikely to be the victim of violence, and in most cases people who do get killed with guns either kill themselves (which is the majority) or are involved in criminal activity, which also increases risks.

The guns aren't going anywhere. So, as tragic and frustrating as it is, we're going to have to get used to the idea that if you live in America, you're far more likely to be gunned down than in any other "civilized" nation.

if you do not deal with drugs are hang out around bad people your chances of being gunned down are statistically insignificant.
 

cabse5

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 29, 2013
Messages
22,624
Reaction score
2,293
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
100% correct ! liberals need to find safe zones if they oppose guns and the 2nd Amendment .
THAT'S THE PROBLEM. It is a fail to say gun free zones fail because gun free zones don't exist in the US except at airports and federal buildings, for example. There are certainly no gun free zones at schools even though they declare their space as gun free zones. Schools' gun free zones consist of a lot of anti-gun indoctrination. Get active with gun prevention. Have students go through a metal detector each day. Suspend the student for having a gun. Prosecute anyone on the playground having a gun. Then schools, for example, might be considered a gun free zone.
 

Socrates1

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 16, 2016
Messages
2,782
Reaction score
469
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
THAT'S THE PROBLEM. It is a fail to say gun free zones fail because gun free zones don't exist in the US except at airports and federal buildings, for example. There are certainly no gun free zones at schools even though they declare their space as gun free zones. Schools' gun free zones consist of a lot of anti-gun indoctrination. Get active with gun prevention. Have students go through a metal detector each day. Suspend the student for having a gun. Prosecute anyone on the playground having a gun. Then schools, for example, might be considered a gun free zone.

As long as their are drug dealers carrying 9mm and thugs with gang affiliations and nitwits like Obama releasing them from prison there will always be a need for guns ! Drug courts and plea deals always involve NO charge for illegal handguns with these thugs , only those that bother to follow the law are targets .
 

cabse5

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 29, 2013
Messages
22,624
Reaction score
2,293
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
As long as their are drug dealers carrying 9mm and thugs with gang affiliations and nitwits like Obama releasing them from prison there will always be a need for guns ! Drug courts and plea deals always involve NO charge for illegal handguns with these thugs , only those that bother to follow the law are targets .
Take the guns away from the thugs and drug dealers, too.
 

cabse5

DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 29, 2013
Messages
22,624
Reaction score
2,293
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
how many people do you think would die if the government went around ignoring the bill of rights and confiscating firearms?

You mean ignoring some judges' interpretations of the bill of rights, don't you.
 

Socrates1

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 16, 2016
Messages
2,782
Reaction score
469
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
So, there really aren't any gun free zones, are there? Except for airports and federal buildings.

I have my doubts about airports .
 

coyotedelmar

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
Messages
822
Reaction score
183
Location
Arizona
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
So, there really aren't any gun free zones, are there? Except for airports and federal buildings.


If you're saying GFZ are only in areas with security, then sporting venues are too.
 

MickeyW

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jan 10, 2015
Messages
14,012
Reaction score
3,439
Location
Southern Oregon
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
None of the methods would have stopped the shooting bar a complete ban (and that is iffy even).

Iffy? It's Unconstitutional!

You have to admit (I suppose you'd admit) even though there are a large majority of gun owners who are responsible with their guns, the problem is the number of gun owners who aren't responsible with their guns. You're saying there is no way to prevent gun violence in America, then? Just prosecution? And everyone who uses a gun is going to have the best of judgement?

How about when someone uses their gun against another person regardless of circumstances, that gun user is 'put on administrative leave' like the police do with a shooting involving the police?

Would that be like the number of drivers who are irresponsible, yet drive daily with 2 ton cars and trucks?

I don't disagree with a law that says those drinking alcohol cannot carry firearms. I think that is a sensible state law. I doubt the establishment that was victimized had many, if any patrons who were non-drinkers. SO maybe the only solution is more armed security. Not telling those drinking alcohol they ought to carry while drinking

I agree, drugs and alcohol don't mix with guns. How about people getting educated about how firearms work, and all rushing the gunmen at once. Sure, some will be shot, but it would be over in short order. They are teaching this in many schools now....throw whatever you have at the shooter, rush the shooter, control the weapon or disarm them.
 

TurtleDude

warrior of the wetlands
DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 12, 2005
Messages
268,278
Reaction score
84,900
Location
Ohio
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
You mean ignoring some judges' interpretations of the bill of rights, don't you.

there is nothing in the constitution that can remotely support gun confiscation from honest americans
 
Top Bottom