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The mechanics of gun control preventing the Orlando massacre

Kal'Stang

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Next thing we need to work on is our recidivism. Frankly the above reform/rehabilitation system should theoretically handle that. Or so one would think. But for recidivism that is only part of the answer. The other part of the answer is adjusting society. Which is no easy task. One of the major reasons for recidivism is that society will not let ex-cons re-enter society. It is often extremely hard for ex-cons to find jobs and even find a place to live. (part of the reason halfway houses were created) Due to this ex-cons feel helpless and frustrated so revert to their criminal ways. So here's my solution to that. For all but a few exceptions all jobs should no longer be able to get access to criminal records. Those needs to be sealed completely up so that even if the ex-con gives permission to view such records the company/rental housing owners is still not allowed to see them. That way they cannot discriminate against ex-cons. Making it easier for ex-cons to get employment and housing and actually work their way up the ladder in order to make more than just bare minimum wage. This, along with the education that they received in prison, will set them back on the right path to success and accomplishment. Making it less likely for them to revert back to their criminal past ways.

As for the few exceptions, only the most critical/sensitive type jobs will be exempt from this restriction. Those jobs being the likes of teaching positions, daycare, banks, and government jobs where secrecy is needed and life or death situations may occur.

And all of this without once mentioning guns or gun control or the 2nd Amendment. And ALL of it would reduce not just gun violence but over all crime period.

I could go on about this quite a bit longer but I've hit the 5k word limit per post. I originally shortened your post in order to make sure to get all this in here and yet I still had to separate my post into two. :doh Also I've been up all night and frankly I'm a bit tired.
 

ttwtt78640

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The morons at the FBI manage the terror watch list and the 4473 database approval.

The FBI has never been able to find their own ass with their hands, so there you go.

Lack of coordination and information sharing among all US law enforcement agencies was identified as a major cause of 9/11, and that has changed very little.

All the more reason not to grant them (the executive branch) the power to leave the judicial branch out of the loop. Only criminal convictions, folks formally adjudged to be mentally incompetent or under court ordered temporary restraining orders should be included in the NICS database - not those simply placed under suspicion by any level of law enforcement.
 

TurtleDude

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To be fair, congress does have the power "to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States"

BUT, that doesnt equal a blank check, as Madison argued.

that's a taxing power, not one that the gun banners claim it is
 

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Focusing on the weapon of choice in the Orlando mass tragedy isn't particularly helpful.

Whether he used an assault rifle (as he did), or C4 strapped to his body, or C4 in a lavishly gift-wrapped box set on a table detonated during his announcement from the microphone, or a van of fertilizer parked out front, or nitroglycerin or other easily made explosive .. or today's backpack-sized nuclear device .. killing many, many more .. the weapon of choice is simply that, not valid as a major focus.

That an assault rifle was part of the perpetrator's mechanics is only important to the comparative few left-wingers with an anti-gun agenda.
 

TurtleDude

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Focusing on the weapon of choice in the Orlando mass tragedy isn't particularly helpful.

Whether he used an assault rifle (as he did), or C4 strapped to his body, or C4 in a lavishly gift-wrapped box set on a table detonated during his announcement from the microphone, or a van of fertilizer parked out front, or nitroglycerin or other easily made explosive .. or today's backpack-sized nuclear device .. killing many, many more .. the weapon of choice is simply that, not valid as a major focus.

That an assault rifle was part of the perpetrator's mechanics is only important to the comparative few left-wingers with an anti-gun agenda.

he didn't use an assault rifle which is fully automatic but the rest of your post has merit
 

Ontologuy

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he didn't use an assault rifle which is fully automatic but the rest of your post has merit
Point taken .. but, a rose by any other name ... The Sig Sauer MCX used in Orlando is a “modern sporting rifle,” not an assault weapon, according to gunmakers. Here’s why..

Nevertheless, you and I are just splitting hairs here.

We agree that there are many weapons of choice that Mateen could have used, that also could have killed many more.

We need to focus more on why these senseless tragedies occur .. and then we might find there's some things we can really do to prevent them.

Outlawing Second Amendment supported weapons that attempt to keep door-to-door combat with our own military as even as reasonably possible is arguably not one of those things.
 

TurtleDude

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Point taken .. but, a rose by any other name ... The Sig Sauer MCX used in Orlando is a “modern sporting rifle,� not an assault weapon, according to gunmakers. Here’s why..

Nevertheless, you and I are just splitting hairs here.

We agree that there are many weapons of choice that Mateen could have used, that also could have killed many more.

We need to focus more on why these senseless tragedies occur .. and then we might find there's some things we can really do to prevent them.

Outlawing Second Amendment supported weapons that attempt to keep door-to-door combat with our own military as even as reasonably possible is arguably not one of those things.

could you explain your last sentence-the on in bold. thanks
 

Chomsky

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However, if the republicans keep control of congress, they have the power to render a Supreme Court's ruling obsolete by amending a law or writing a new one!
Absolutely - as long as the new legislation is inline with the Constitutional ruling, and is signed by the President or can survive a Congressional veto override.

But yeah, we have a system with lots of options (and lots of obstacles).
 

justlikethat

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Absolutely - as long as the new legislation is inline with the Constitutional ruling, and is signed by the President or can survive a Congressional veto override.

But yeah, we have a system with lots of options (and lots of obstacles).

But will Hillary be able to legally veto a bill while behind bars? :lol:
 

Chomsky

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<snip>

But what you CAN get here is simplified plans. For example here is my simplified plan to reduce over all crime, which will also address your post above here.

<snip>

Next thing we need to work on is our recidivism. Frankly the above reform/rehabilitation system should theoretically handle that. Or so one would think. But for recidivism that is only part of the answer. The other part of the answer is adjusting society. Which is no easy task.

<snip>
Dayem, Kal - I'm willing to give you the keys to the White House based upon this post alone!

You're quite the sociologist!
 
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jaeger19

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I've had a few ideas that might help, but certainly not stop, the flow of guns to criminals; but those involve things like gun registries, ammo registries, improving serial numbers (so they can't be obliterated), and complete bans on resale of guns other than back to a licensed firearm dealer. But I've pretty much never heard a gun enthusiast agree (some gun _owners_ have agreed, but mere owners aren't the ones that need convincing about reasonable gun control).

None of that would stop mass shootings.

In fact, I don't think we can pass *anything* consistent with the 2nd Amd. that will stop or even reasonably cut down on mass shootings. Ditto for the rest of gun violence in this country. There are just so many guns out there.

We'd need to repeal the 2nd, confiscate the myriad guns out there, pass a new much more limited 2nd, and start all over. Not happening. That's less likely than building a wall, forcing Mexico to pay for it, deporting all the illegals, and actually keeping them all out. HAH!

Basically, either Americans are extremely violent evil people as compared to the rest of the world, or having the most guns per capita means you have the most gun violence per capita (not including broken states like El Salvador).

The guns aren't going anywhere. So, as tragic and frustrating as it is, we're going to have to get used to the idea that if you live in America, you're far more likely to be gunned down than in any other "civilized" nation.

Just to point out.. we are among the safest nations on earth. Despite having the highest gun ownership in the world.

those are the facts.

I think that's what is really frustrating to the liberals.
 

Kal'Stang

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Dayem, Kal - I'm willing to give you the keys to the White House based upon this post alone!

You're quite the sociologist!

Thank you. :) Believe it or not, you're not the first person to tell me that when I've talked about what I said in those posts to people around me. :) Unfortunately, the only way I could get elected is if I had the money to campaign...considering that cost in the millions...not going to happen.

However the best that I could do is write all of that down on paper and send it into my representative. Which I do plan to do after I try and flesh it out a bit more. :)
 

jonny5

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Thank you. :) Believe it or not, you're not the first person to tell me that when I've talked about what I said in those posts to people around me. :) Unfortunately, the only way I could get elected is if I had the money to campaign...considering that cost in the millions...not going to happen.

However the best that I could do is write all of that down on paper and send it into my representative. Which I do plan to do after I try and flesh it out a bit more. :)

If people support you theyll give you money to run for office. How do you think Sanders got so far?
 

SMTA

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All the more reason not to grant them (the executive branch) the power to leave the judicial branch out of the loop. Only criminal convictions, folks formally adjudged to be mentally incompetent or under court ordered temporary restraining orders should be included in the NICS database - not those simply placed under suspicion by any level of law enforcement.

The problem is HIPAA medical privacy, which cannot be circumvented unless patient approved.

Then throw in incorrect coding for data input and we have a full-blown cluster ****.
 

jonny5

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I've stated several ways on how to reduce over all crime (including gun violence) many times around here. First though I'm going to respond to your post #6 and then this post.

What you're wanting in post #6 is simply not possible for one post, or more than likely even 2 or 3 posts to cover. You would also need to get health professionals involved to get the kind of detail that you want. Essentially what you're doing in that post is disregarding any suggestions as it simply not being possible because we're not able to give you a full answer of the kind you're wanting. Any posts that you see on pretty much ANY forum is not going to give detailed instructions or analysis of how to get this problem fixed. All that you'll get is generalizations and simplistic answers. Mainly due to limited space per post and the limited time that posters have due to real life concerns that take priority over DebatePolitics.com.

But what you CAN get here is simplified plans. For example here is my simplified plan to reduce over all crime, which will also address your post above here.

First and foremost we HAVE to address our education system. It is, quite frankly, abhorrent. The US used to be in the top 10 ranked countries in education. Now, depending on your source the US ranks in the mid to bottom 20's. So we need to better our education system. The best way to do this I think is to assemble a group of experts and have them study the top 10, maybe just top 5 of the best ranked countries as far as education goes. Take the best among those countries ideas and merge them into one system and apply it to our education system. Now here's why I say we need to address our education system when referring to reducing over all crime. The better educated a person is the less likely they are to commit a crime. No, its not a guarantee to stop crime all together, but it will reduce it. The reasoning is that the more a person is educated the more that they can attain, the more that they attain the less likely they are to commit a crime due to them not wanting to lose everything that they have attained. This will also have the effect of reducing poverty levels as more people will be able to get or create better jobs. Poverty is one of the major reasons for crime. So bettering our education system will actually have two net effects, both leading to reduced crime.

The next thing that needs to be addressed is our Justice System. It DESPERATELY needs reformed. It needs to be changed from one of punishment, to one of reform and rehabilitation. It is a well known fact that when we send people to prison, when/if they get out they often come out worse psychologically than when they went in. That needs to change, which can be done via making our justice system into one of reform and rehabilitation. Instead of letting prisoners sit around all day teach them useful skills that they can apply to life outside of prison. Also while they are in prison get them psychological help. Make it mandatory to both see a shrink and go to classes that teach them useful skills.

Now in order for this reform/rehabilitation to actually work it needs the required TIME to make it work for each individual. And since there is no set time for such things we need to get rid of or at least adjust our sentencing guidelines. Instead of a judge declaring some arbitrary number of months/years that a person has to spend in prison let the psychologists and teachers decide when that person gets out of prison. But they can only be released once they are provably reformed/rehabilitated. If that means that a person stays in prison for just 1 year then so be it, if it means that person stays in prison for the rest of their lives then so be it. They HAVE to have the signature of both the shrink and the teachers to be able to get out. There will of course be exceptions where some mandatory sentencing needs to be fulfilled. Such as 1st and 2nd degree murder and rape and child rape. But those sentences should only be used against the worst type of offenders.

Next post....

What about parenting? After all, most of us got the same bad education and didnt go to prison. Heck, if you look at stats, 60% of criminals completed high school.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ecp.pdf
 
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Kal'Stang

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If people support you theyll give you money to run for office. How do you think Sanders got so far?

Gotta get the message out before people can support you though. And everyone I know is broke as hell.
 

Kal'Stang

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What about parenting? After all, most of us got the same bad education and didnt go to prison. Heck, if you look at stats, 60% of criminals completed high school.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ecp.pdf

If you think about it my education proposal will help with that also. The more educated a person is the more they're going to not just teach their children, but be ABLE to teach their children, and help future generations be better parents. (remember, this is all simplified).

Also you should note that with the US being ranked in the mid to low 20's education wise....that doesn't really say much that 60% of HS graduates are in prison. People can get bad education and yet still graduate in our society. That is part of the problem with our education system. We too easily and way to often pass kids that simply should not have been passed.

It should be noted that my proposals are NOT short term oriented. They are long term oriented and meant to be lasting solutions. Even if these solutions were to be implemented this very day, we're not going to see real solid results of them for at least a generation. We might see some small results but no real big ones until years down the road. I believe in planning for the long haul. Short term Band-Aid ideas to problems never fully solve any problems. In fact its my belief that they usually cause more problems than they're worth. They have their uses, but should never be fully relied upon.
 

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Next thing we need to work on is our recidivism. Frankly the above reform/rehabilitation system should theoretically handle that. Or so one would think. But for recidivism that is only part of the answer. The other part of the answer is adjusting society. Which is no easy task. One of the major reasons for recidivism is that society will not let ex-cons re-enter society. It is often extremely hard for ex-cons to find jobs and even find a place to live. (part of the reason halfway houses were created) Due to this ex-cons feel helpless and frustrated so revert to their criminal ways. So here's my solution to that. For all but a few exceptions all jobs should no longer be able to get access to criminal records. Those needs to be sealed completely up so that even if the ex-con gives permission to view such records the company/rental housing owners is still not allowed to see them. That way they cannot discriminate against ex-cons. Making it easier for ex-cons to get employment and housing and actually work their way up the ladder in order to make more than just bare minimum wage. This, along with the education that they received in prison, will set them back on the right path to success and accomplishment. Making it less likely for them to revert back to their criminal past ways.

As for the few exceptions, only the most critical/sensitive type jobs will be exempt from this restriction. Those jobs being the likes of teaching positions, daycare, banks, and government jobs where secrecy is needed and life or death situations may occur.

And all of this without once mentioning guns or gun control or the 2nd Amendment. And ALL of it would reduce not just gun violence but over all crime period.

I could go on about this quite a bit longer but I've hit the 5k word limit per post. I originally shortened your post in order to make sure to get all this in here and yet I still had to separate my post into two. :doh Also I've been up all night and frankly I'm a bit tired.

Just to comment here few things.

One of the problems with recidivism is the our drug policies and mental health policies. Our prisons have become the rehabilitation for drug use and mental health for the poor. Honestly, there is likely little rehabilitation of the true criminal. However, we spend a ton of money incarcerating and then giving rehabilitiation for drug use and mental health in the prisons.. which is probably the worst place to do rehab and have it last.

If we could change our laws to focus on real dangerous criminals. And offer early tracking and intervention of mental health problems ( in the school system).. this would likely cut down on both crime AND drug use.



.
 

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could you explain your last sentence-the on in bold. thanks
The Second Amendment is not only about protecting us from other governments and organizations, but, arguably, about protecting us from our own government.

We must be allowed, as a citizen militia, to keep as equal with likely opposing forces as is practically reasonable as possible, with regard to avoiding occupation, meaning with regard to door-to-door combat, should our own government violate our Constitution and its safeguarded rights.

Thus assault rifles, a stock in trade of the military, ours and "theirs", needs to be an option at the citizen militia level.

Granted, we can't really be allowed to have our own nukes and air force and such, but I believe the Second Amendment extends to self-protection from occupying forces, meaning door-to-door ..

.. And thus we need to be able to keep door-to-door weaponry equal .. the spirit of the Second Amendment.
 

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What about parenting? After all, most of us got the same bad education and didnt go to prison. Heck, if you look at stats, 60% of criminals completed high school.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ecp.pdf
Are you comparing the lack of two parent African-American families to the high incidence of crime in African-American communities? First I'd like to say, that's a bold statement. Not because it may be true but because the politically correct crowd will not be far behind harassing you.

Granted, the African-American community doesn't have a lot of two parent families but the community does has some very strong and very virulent role models. Role models who are really bad.
 

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Are you comparing the lack of two parent African-American families to the high incidence of crime in African-American communities? First I'd like to say, that's a bold statement. Not because it may be true but because the politically correct crowd will not be far behind harassing you.

Granted, the African-American community doesn't have a lot of two parent families but the community does has some very strong and very virulent role models. Role models who are really bad.

No, I was just pointing out that criminals have education, and plenty of people who dont arent criminals. Thus the problems start before govt indoctrination.
 

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You miss one key point in your analysis, which is the courts, specifically the Supreme Court.

Both Heller and McDonald were narrow 5-4 rulings, hinging on the now deceased Justice Scalia. They could easily have gone the other way with a liberal Justice in his place.

The sad truth about the Constitution (as it applies to us) is: It only means what a given Judge thinks it means on a given day!

A Hillary win and a subsequent coupla' justice appointments can swing this whole thing around - reference: Plessy v Ferguson --> Brown v Board.

As a matter of fact, the San Fran 9th District just recently ruled concealed carry *illegal* in California by 7-4! And with our current 4-4 SCOTUS, that could possibly stand! Does anyone wanna' bet how a 6-3 liberal Court might rule?

So yeah, nothing ever is written (or should I say, interpreted) in stone.


True, but, it's also very rare that SCOTUS will reverse a decision within a matter of years like that. I'm betting that McDonald and Heller hold up given respect for starer decisis.



A new court might let inroads creep in on the core of those cases, like they have done with Roe v. Wade, but I doubt they'll completely reverse themselves...and certainly not for quite some time.
 

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I've stated several ways on how to reduce over all crime (including gun violence) many times around here. First though I'm going to respond to your post #6 and then this post.

What you're wanting in post #6 is simply not possible for one post, or more than likely even 2 or 3 posts to cover. You would also need to get health professionals involved to get the kind of detail that you want. Essentially what you're doing in that post is disregarding any suggestions as it simply not being possible because we're not able to give you a full answer of the kind you're wanting. Any posts that you see on pretty much ANY forum is not going to give detailed instructions or analysis of how to get this problem fixed. All that you'll get is generalizations and simplistic answers. Mainly due to limited space per post and the limited time that posters have due to real life concerns that take priority over DebatePolitics.com.

Yes, I'm well aware of the "tl;dr" treatment; hence the virtue of clarity and concise statements.

I wasn't asking for a six post essay. I was asking for more than seven words - "we should fix the health care system" - since one poster cannot reasonably expect another to spend hours trying to work out why the first thinks that fixing the health care system will end gun violence and/or mass shootings, for the precise reasons you mention.

"I don't have time to tell you why what I claim will work, will in fact work, so just accept that I'm right" just doesn't go anywhere.


But what you CAN get here is simplified plans. For example here is my simplified plan to reduce over all crime, which will also address your post above here.

First and foremost we HAVE to address our education system. It is, quite frankly, abhorrent. The US used to be in the top 10 ranked countries in education. Now, depending on your source the US ranks in the mid to bottom 20's. So we need to better our education system. The best way to do this I think is to assemble a group of experts and have them study the top 10, maybe just top 5 of the best ranked countries as far as education goes. Take the best among those countries ideas and merge them into one system and apply it to our education system. Now here's why I say we need to address our education system when referring to reducing over all crime. The better educated a person is the less likely they are to commit a crime. No, its not a guarantee to stop crime all together, but it will reduce it. The reasoning is that the more a person is educated the more that they can attain, the more that they attain the less likely they are to commit a crime due to them not wanting to lose everything that they have attained. This will also have the effect of reducing poverty levels as more people will be able to get or create better jobs. Poverty is one of the major reasons for crime. So bettering our education system will actually have two net effects, both leading to reduced crime.

I certainly agree with fixing our education system. But I think this confirms rather than disposes of my unquoted statements; specifically, that while it's a laudable goal that I support, it isn't targeted at the point of the thread: Preventing the Orlando massacre (or more broadly, mass shootings in general).

It's not simply fixing the education system, either. It's getting people into the education system, which is rather difficult when bad inner city areas are virtual war zones and poor rural areas/trailer parks are colonies of the neglected.
 
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