The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread!

[OscarB63]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

The fact that many men are too selfish or uncaring to protect themselves is their own problem.

and, unfortunately, the fact that many women are too selfish or uncaring to protect themselves is also his problem.

I guess my main point in the whole abortion issue is.

If you choose to have unprotected sex, then you have made your choice and you should have to live with the consquences. abortions should be reserved for cases where the mother's life is in peril or the mother was forced to have sex against her will

 

[MaggieD]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

and, unfortunately, the fact that many women are too selfish or uncaring to protect themselves is also his problem.

I guess my main point in the whole abortion issue is.

If you choose to have unprotected sex, then you have made your choice and you should have to live with the consquences. abortions should be reserved for cases where the mother's life is in peril or the mother was forced to have sex against her will

Oh, absolutely women, too. I was responding specifically to men having a choice. Totally agree with you. In fact, I would lay all of the blame on a woman. And all of the blame on the man. I know there are rare instances when birth control doesn't work, but that's not the major reason for pregnancy by a long shot.

 

[OscarB63]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

Oh, absolutely women, too. I was responding specifically to men having a choice. Totally agree with you. In fact, I would lay all of the blame on a woman. And all of the blame on the man. I know there are rare instances when birth control doesn't work, but that's not the major reason for pregnancy by a long shot.

If a guy has unprotected sex, he is stupid
If a girl has unprotected sex, she is really stupid

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

If a woman choses to have sex she invites the child in her womb. If she is raped her body still willfully gives it's resources.

Her body does nothing "willfully", because her body does not have a will of its own.

If a man has to shoulder at least half of the responsibility, then shouldn't he have at least "some" say on the issue?

Why do people continue to talk about "having a say"? There is no "having a say" on this issue, because there is no possible compromise. Either the child is aborted or the child is carried to term. If two people disagree, one of them gets to make the decision. Considering who bears the greater burden in pregnancy, that person ought to be the woman. The fact that men have no say in the matter once a child is conceived is terribly unfair, but if we're going to rectify that situation we have to be realistic about what kinds of solutions are possible.

 

[molten_dragon]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

Male abortion (walking away) results in a harm to a born person. Aborton doesn't. That alone is a major difference.

Not if it is only allowed to take place before the child is born.

 

[MaggieD]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

and i guess that is where we differ. I don't think you have to be born to be a "person". I have just seen too many dirtbag females use pregnancy as a way to trap a guy. "No baby, you don't need to use a condom, I am on the pill"

Guys have the ultimate power. If they choose not to use their power because they think with their penises, they are every bit as culpable as the gal. Moreso, if they're really going to feel trapped with a positive pregnancy test -- as birth control does fail.

At least, with DNA tests, guys can no longer simply say, "Ain't mine!!!" Now those guys, those guys, were the epitome of dirtbag.

 

[BDBoop]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

Male abortion (walking away) results in a harm to a born person. Aborton doesn't. That alone is a major difference.

What if the father-to-be is devastated by the female choosing aborting - that is harm to him, is it not?

 

[majora$$hole]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

We've already had this discussion. They are two separate sets of circumstances that can't be judged under the same criteria.

\
i say they can and should so the law concerning both can be settled without so much litigation and money spent. besides my point of view is more in line with what is already in place as i understand it dosen't rvw make all abortions legal before the 1st trimester (when brain life as i define it starts)?

 

[samsmart]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

After participating in many threads, most quickly degenerate to "Baby killer!" and "Sexist anti-women pig!" I want to make a thread that's free from personal attacks, free from appeals to emotion (example, yelling baby killer, saying pro-life people are sexist, labeling fetuses as unborn people/children for emotional appeal, and pulling out examples of the 12 year old girl who was raped by her father and is now pregnant holding a coat hanger in a back alley). Basically, this thread should be free from emotional debate, personal attacks, judgements, and all the other crap that typically makes up a run of the mill abortion thread. Let's please keep it logical, reasonable, respectful, and civil.

Okay.

I am pro-choice because I think all medical decisions should be between a patient and his/her doctor. I don't think any other person should be involved in the medical decision an individual has to make with the professional advice of a medical practitioner.

 

[mac]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

Okay.

I am pro-choice because I think all medical decisions should be between a patient and his/her doctor. I don't think any other person should be involved in the medical decision an individual has to make with the professional advice of a medical practitioner.

Abortion is more than a medical decision.

 

[OscarB63]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

What if the father-to-be is devastated by the female choosing aborting - that is harm to him, is it not?

that doesn't matter, the father is irrelevant...which is my complaint about the way the system now works.

 

[MaggieD]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

that doesn't matter, the father is irrelevant...which is my complaint about the way the system now works.

Fathers will never have any rights when it comes to a woman either keeping a baby or getting an abortion. The whole concept that they should is ludicrous. They have no rights until the baby does. That's just the way it is. And the way it should be.

 

[samsmart]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

Abortion is more than a medical decision.

No it isn't.

 

[OscarB63]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

Fathers will never have any rights when it comes to a woman either keeping a baby or getting an abortion. The whole concept that they should is ludicrous. They have no rights until the baby does. That's just the way it is. And the way it should be.

and then people wonder why there are so many deadbeat dads out there. with attitudes like yours...I don't blame them for running out.

 

[mac]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

No it isn't.

Yes it is. It's a decision that ends a life.

 

[MaggieD]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

No it isn't.

Define medical decision. Is cutting off one's own arm for no good reason a medical decision?

 

[OscarB63]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

At least, with DNA tests, guys can no longer simply say, "Ain't mine!!!" Now those guys, those guys, were the epitome of dirtbag.

At least, with DNA tests, girls can no longer simply say, "It's yours!!!" Now those girls, were the epitome of dirtbag.

 

[MaggieD]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

and then people wonder why there are so many deadbeat dads out there. with attitudes like yours...I don't blame them for running out.

Why? Do you think a man should be able to force a woman to carry a baby 'til term? Oh, wait. Do you want a man to be able to abdicate child support obligations because he'd rather the woman have an abortion? Everybody should blame deadbeat dads. They're the lowest of the low, imo. What does my attitude, or even that attitude, have to do with a deadbeat dad "running out?"

 

[MaggieD]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

At least, with DNA tests, girls can no longer simply say, "It's yours!!!" Now those girls, were the epitome of dirtbag.

But before DNA she'd always get trumped with, "You're crazy. No, it isn't." Done-and-done. Nowwwww, these 'dirtbags,' if you will, trap men into life-long support obligations. I'm totally with you there.

 

[OscarB63]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

Why? Do you think a man should be able to force a woman to carry a baby 'til term? Oh, wait. Do you want a man to be able to abdicate child support obligations because he'd rather the woman have an abortion?

and how is that any different from a woman forcing a man to pay 18 years of support because she'd rather not get an abortion? or a woman denying a man a child because she'd rather not go through the inconvenience of a pregnancy?

Is 9 months too much to ask from a woman? If the pregnancy becomes hazardous to her health (and not just an inconvenience) then she can have an abortion.

I just find it odd that you think it is so unfair to "force" a woman to endure 9 MONTHs of pregnancy to give a child a life, but you have no problem "forcing" a man to pay support for 18 YEARS

 

[MaggieD]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

and how is that any different from a woman forcing a man to pay 18 years of support because she'd rather not get an abortion? or a woman denying a man a child because she'd rather not go through the inconvenience of a pregnancy?

Not quite sure what you mean by "how is that any different?" But a woman simply cannot be forced to have an abortion. Nor can she be forced to keep a child she doesn't want. It's her body, not his. If a man could abdicate his responsibility for the life he created, we'd live in a sorry world. We used to live in that kind of world. But no more. I don't think men have yet caught up with the times. Really, honestly, every time they have sex without a hat they need to be prepared to pay child support for 28 years.

Is 9 months too much to ask from a woman? If the pregnancy becomes hazardous to her health (and not just an inconvenience) then she can have an abortion.

Yes, in my opinion, it's too much to ask.

I just find it odd that you think it is so unfair to "force" a woman to endure 9 MONTHs of pregnancy to give a child a life, but you have no problem "forcing" a man to pay support for 18 YEARS

I don't think it's unfair to force a woman to endure pregnancy for the sake of the father. Ludicrous would be a better choice of words. Even husbands don't have those rights....much less a wham-bam-thank-ya'-ma'am encounter.

 

[OscarB63]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

If a man could abdicate his responsibility for the life he created, we'd live in a sorry world. .

last time I checked "he" didn't create the life..."they" did. so why should "he" be the only one to pay the price? It sounds like you want the man to be totally responsible for birth control, but you want the woman to have all the authority to make decisions after it fails or THEY choose not to use it

 

[drz-400]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

If/when society determines a point at which individuals are granted "personhood," as you choose to call it, it is the only facor to be considered. All the other things you're bringing up go into making that decision.

The law has decided. Abortion is not murder, a fetus is not protected by our constitution. It is not a person when we are considering constitutional law. If your own religious, scientific, common sense, metaphysical, biological... views say it is a person it is irrelevent when we are speaking of constitutional rights. A person defined under the law is normative and does not have to rely on any of these things. The current law says a fetus is not a person. When we consider constitutional rights we must remember this.

 

[VanceMack]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

I'll use my own version of an emotionally charged attack in my response. The abortion argument is bull**** and both sides are ideological hypocrites.

Nationwide, abortion gets rolled out every 2, 4, and 6 years during election cycles or on the rare occasion of appointment of a supreme court judge. Everyone gets all fired up, elections pass, and the issue fades away til next time. Pro abortionists hate to be called pro abortionsists...the invariable response is "Im not pro abortion" Im pro choice...which is bull**** because they do nothing to help encourage real 'choice'. The anti-abrtionist position is "I'm not anti-choice, im pro-life" which is again bull**** because they offer nothing in the way of viable 'choice'. If people were committed to life and real choice then there would not be this hatred and animosity from one group to the next. They would work side by side, helping those young women making this most difficult choice, by helping them understand long term potential psychological repercussions, by helping them have a real choice (which would include financial support, maybe a safe home to live in both before and after the birth if that were the individuals choice, by providing viable adoption alternatives, and by offering unconditional love and support if the woman were to still decide to have the abortion.

 

[BDBoop]

Re: The logic based personal attack and appeal to emotion free abortion debate thread

Not quite sure what you mean by "how is that any different?" But a woman simply cannot be forced to have an abortion. Nor can she be forced to keep a child she doesn't want. It's her body, not his. If a man could abdicate his responsibility for the life he created, we'd live in a sorry world. We used to live in that kind of world. But no more. I don't think men have yet caught up with the times. Really, honestly, every time they have sex without a hat they need to be prepared to pay child support for 28 years.



Yes, in my opinion, it's too much to ask.



I don't think it's unfair to force a woman to endure pregnancy for the sake of the father. Ludicrous would be a better choice of words. Even husbands don't have those rights....much less a wham-bam-thank-ya'-ma'am encounter.

You just made all the points I got called "emotional" for making.